Non-magnetic Wheelsets for UK Rolling Stock

[benjy14]

Hi,

 

I am currently in the planning stages of a 4mm layout BR layout, having previously built an American HO shunting layout. On that American layout, I used Kadee couplers and under-the-track magnets for hands-free uncoupling. I would like to replicate this on my new UK layout, as all of my rolling stock is relatively new with NEM coupler pockets, so installation is a doddle. However, I have a problem...

 

Most HO stock comes with poor quality wheelsets with steel axles and plastic wheels. This is easily resolved with replacement Kadee wheelsets, which not only dramatically improve running but crucially, are non-magnetic. Likewise, all of my UK stock has metallic wheelsets, which means that they are attracted to the magnets and makes uncoupling impossible. I have tried in vain to find a supplier of non-magnetic wheelsets for use with UK rolling stock; even inquiring at the Alan Gibson stand at the Warley show drew a blank.

 

I know that a number of layouts use Kadee couplers or other forms of magnetic uncouplers, so how do others solve this problem?  Surely there is somebody, somewhere who produces high-quality, non-magnetic wheelsets for UK rolling stock?  Or is  there another solution (for example, using much smaller magnetics)?

 

Please help!

 

TIA,

Ben

 

[Gilbert]

In my experience very difficult to solve - Following a switch to BR modelling after US endeavours I too was frustrated by the steel axle shimmy resulting from undertrack Kadee magnets. However I now use Code 83 "between the rails" magnets with my SMP Code 75 track (rather then the undertrack magnet)  on Pixash Lane and that seems OK - if you can stand seeing the magnets - in my experience it has not caused too much detrimental comment  and the hands-off uncoupling is a source of many compliments and questions ( to the extent I now carry a 300mm track with magnets and spare stock with me at shows and spend most of my time demoing KDs rather than running the layout - fortunately I take a team of 2-3 operators with me!)

Chris

[49395]

You could try their electromagnets, although they are a bit pricey, otherwise you can hinge an under track magnet

 

https://www.kadee.com/html/308ins.pdf

 

Personally I use a BBQ skewer to uncouple them, I tried under track magnets and had the same steel axle problem, then the electromagnets, which my psu doesn't like, hopefully some of the above might help

 

Mike

[Jeff Smith]

Surely HO wheels are RP 25-110 the same as OO, won't Kadee wheels fit OO vehicles?

[kevinlms]

Surely HO wheels are RP 25-110 the same as OO, won't Kadee wheels fit OO vehicles?

The problem being the difference in scales between 3.5mm & 4mm to the foot. Therefore a 3ft wheelset to HO standards (10.5mm), is much too small for OO (12mm), even if you could get one with the right spoke arrangements e.g. 8 spoke, being the most common British wagon wheel. Worse still the standard for US prototypes is that 33 inch is the most common size, thus making them extra small for OO.

 

Steam Era Models used to make wheels to special order & sold 12mm wheels once upon a time. Has anyone contacted David, to find out if he can still supply?

 

http://www.steameramodels.com/wheels.htm

[benjy14]

Hi everybody,

 

Thanks for your feedback.

 

The problem being the difference in scales between 3.5mm & 4mm to the foot. Therefore a 3ft wheelset to HO standards (10.5mm), is much too small for OO (12mm), even if you could get one with the right spoke arrangements e.g. 8 spoke, being the most common British wagon wheel. Worse still the standard for US prototypes is that 33 inch is the most common size, thus making them extra small for OO.

 

Steam Era Models used to make wheels to special order & sold 12mm wheels once upon a time. Has anyone contacted David, to find out if he can still supply?

 

http://www.steameramodels.com/wheels.htm

 

That is indeed the problem. I have some Kadee wheelsets here and they are considerably smaller that the UK versions; see the image below (Kadee on the left, Alan Gibson on the right):

 

 

It would seem that my options for replacement wheelsets are basically non-existent, which is both a surprise and a disappointment.

 

Having researched a little further, it would seem that the real problem here is the length of the Kadee uncoupler (this includes the electromagnetic type; I have both types here); using a much smaller and precise magnet may completely avoid the problem. Here is a topic I found:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/323/entry-4982-kadees-and-magnets/

 

The author is using Neodymium magnets, which are much smaller and therefore, the problem of the axles being attracted to them may be avoided. They are cheaply available from a well-known auction website, so for less than £5, it is worth experimenting. Does anybody reading this have any experiences using these or similar magnets?

 

Cheers,

 

Ben

[Enterprisingwestern]

An expensive way of going about it maybe, but, ream out the English wheels to fit the Kadee axles?

I'm undergoing a similar voyage of discovery trying to find 2' 9" wheels for 4mm.

 

Mike.

[Silver Sidelines]

I am thinking that Jackson wheels were turned Brass on steel axles. I can also imagine seeing advertisements for some types of Bachmann wheels which were also turned brass (and plated). Maybe a help?

Regards

Ray

PS If the magnets are that strong I am wondering how they affect the steel weights in wagons and coaches?

Edited December 3, 2014 by Silver Sidelines

[Jeff Smith]

It might be worth investigating Bachmann On30 wheels which nowadays seem to be all non-magnetic. A quick check shows disc coach wheels at 13mm, disc wagon wheels at 11.5mm and loco 10 spoke bogie wheels at about 11mm.

[Quarryscapes]

Gibson et al use plastic centred wheels with brass or nickel silver tyres for rolling stock, the problem here is the axle itself which is usually plain steel or silver steel. Perhaps you could find an engineering place that would be willing to turn some none magnetic stainless steel to the required pinpoint form? 

[Andy Reichert]

Replace your UK axles with brass 2mm x 26 mm pp axles.

 

http://www.proto87.com/model-railroad-proto87-wheelsets.html

 

I ship to the UK.

Andy

[Grovenor]

 

Gibson et al use plastic centred wheels with brass or nickel silver tyres for rolling stock,

All the Gibson wheels I have are fitted with steel tyres and steel axles. I don't know about 'et al' but the Steam era/branchlines wheels are nickel silver with brass axles, but disc wheels only, no spoked or 3-hole last time I looked.

Keith

[Butler Henderson]

I use the original Bachmann UK wheels which have stubs on the metal wheels fitted into a plastic axle. Most people dislike them due to gauging and wobble issues but you can come across them on ebay from time to time in bulk and most seem to run okay. Think the electromagnet or magnet on a flap is probably a better option as with 9'or10'wb stock you can spend some time trying to keep a rake together over a fixed magnet

Edited November 26, 2014 by Butler Henderson

[kevinlms]

All the Gibson wheels I have are fitted with steel tyres and steel axles. I don't know about 'et al' but the Steam era/branchlines wheels are nickel silver with brass axles, but disc wheels only, no spoked or 3-hole last time I looked.

Keith

Hence my earlier suggestion to contact Steam Era direct to see if he'd make some - he USED TO sell them. Perhaps if a group of RMweb members got together they'd be able to put together a minimum order? Or go with Andy Reichert's option.

[Guest 40-something]

Hi everybody,

 

Thanks for your feedback.

 

 

That is indeed the problem. I have some Kadee wheelsets here and they are considerably smaller that the UK versions; see the image below (Kadee on the left, Alan Gibson on the right):

 

IMG_1107.JPG

 

It would seem that my options for replacement wheelsets are basically non-existent, which is both a surprise and a disappointment.

 

Having researched a little further, it would seem that the real problem here is the length of the Kadee uncoupler (this includes the electromagnetic type; I have both types here); using a much smaller and precise magnet may completely avoid the problem. Here is a topic I found:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/323/entry-4982-kadees-and-magnets/

 

The author is using Neodymium magnets, which are much smaller and therefore, the problem of the axles being attracted to them may be avoided. They are cheaply available from a well-known auction website, so for less than £5, it is worth experimenting. Does anybody reading this have any experiences using these or similar magnets?

 

Cheers,

 

Ben

I use these magnets - see here for some info...

 

Whilst I find them better than the Kadee fixed magnets, they do still try to pull the steel axles a little.  To overcome this I put a spot of gloss varnish in opposing axle bearings and put the the wheelsets back in whilst still wet.  When dry the wheelset will be stuck, but free them with finger pressure and you'll be left with some drag which stops the wagons jerking over the magnets.  Works well.  Another thing to do is to remove any steel weights and replace with lead or old coins (or as Im going to try, cheap bathroom sealant) 

 

Another method is to stick a small piece of foam to the underside of the wagon, bearing down on an axle, this again has the effect of creating drag

[benjy14]

Hi,

 

Thanks again to everybody for replying.

 

I use these magnets - see here for some info...

 

Whilst I find them better than the Kadee fixed magnets, they do still try to pull the steel axles a little.  To overcome this I put a spot of gloss varnish in opposing axle bearings and put the the wheelsets back in whilst still wet.  When dry the wheelset will be stuck, but free them with finger pressure and you'll be left with some drag which stops the wagons jerking over the magnets.  Works well.  Another thing to do is to remove any steel weights and replace with lead or old coins (or as Im going to try, cheap bathroom sealant) 

 

Another method is to stick a small piece of foam to the underside of the wagon, bearing down on an axle, this again has the effect of creating drag

 

Thank for you for this. It is interesting to see that you are also using Neodymium magnets, although in a different way to the other posts I have found. I have already taken delivery of some 4mm radius x 1mm deep magnets and have tried glueing them to the tops of the sleepers; unfortunately, whilst this works, it is not reliable. However, it seems that you have had much more success mounting them between sleepers, so that is what I will try next... I do have a question though... You write in your blog "Each strip must be mounted with opposing poles to allow the couplings to move in operate directions"... Are the magnets marked with their poles?  The ones I have here are simple silver discs, so I don't see how you can tell...

 

Thanks again,

 

Ben

[Guest 40-something]

Hi Ben,

 

The easiest way to tell is to lay the magnets across the track and move a wagon with the kadee over them and the trip pin should pull to the right, if it doesnt then flip the magnets around and retest!

[kevinlms]

Hi Ben,

 

The easiest way to tell is to lay the magnets across the track and move a wagon with the kadee over them and the trip pin should pull to the right, if it doesnt then flip the magnets around and retest!

There is an important thing to remember with Kadee uncoupling, in that the pins need to be pulled across sufficiently across (to the right), for the delayed feature to work. Otherwise they might uncouple, but the delayed feature won't work. Indeed Kadee make uncouplers that are of different widths for this very reason.

 

Kadee 312 has long been available (original?) without the delayed feature

 

Kadee 321 has the delayed feature & the 322 is the equivalent for Code 80 track (a new version on me & presumably best for Peco Code 75?).

The Kadee 308 under track magnet is powerful enough to pull fully to the right, as is the 309 electric version.

 

Of course if your not interested in the delay feature, it doesn't matter, but a replacement magnet, may need to take this into account.

[benjy14]

Hi Ben,

 

The easiest way to tell is to lay the magnets across the track and move a wagon with the kadee over them and the trip pin should pull to the right, if it doesnt then flip the magnets around and retest!

 

D'oh!  Obvious when you point it out...

 

Ben

[benjy14]

My thanks to everybody who has replied to my question. I'm pleased to say that I now have a working solution to this problem that is actually very simple...

 

Using 40-something's suggestion of a strip of Neodymium magnets laid between the sleepers as inspiration, it seemed to me that the whole problem was that the Kadee uncoupling magnet as supplied is too long and that by reducing it in length, uncoupling could still be achieved without the axles being attracted to the magnet itself. So, using an axle grinder, I cut the magnet and steel plate into three bits; one 10mm, one 15mm, and the last is whatever was left (just over 20mm). This allowed me to experiment and what I have found is that the 15mm one works perfectly. Here it is under some test track:

 

 

And by simply moving a couple of Kadee-fitted vehicles over it by hand, I found that uncoupling would very well without the wheels beig attracted to the magnet. This is obviously hard to show in pictures but the following should (hopefully) so that the magnet does indeed work:

 

 

There we have it!  I hope this little investigation may prove useful to somebody else...

 

Cheers,

 

Ben

[PaulRhB]

Ben, I've been doing the same experiments and found cutting down the magnets worked but still caused wagons to shudder as they passed over them. What I've done now is put two of the 10mm disc magnets into 25mm lengths of brass tube that slide up and down inside shorter outer tubes. One is beneath each rail and can be raised together to uncouple but drop back down to prevent shuddering as axles pass over. I'm using a push rod with a wedge shape to raise the magnets.

My experiments are here,

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/61841-lulworth-castle-sr-somethings-actually-happening/page-3

 

I'll add a picture of the arrangement later as board is packed away but it worked reliably in a mock up.

Edited December 2, 2014 by PaulRhB

[PaulRhB]

Of course you can always hinge the kadee magnet down out of the way like some do in the US

[Silver Sidelines]

Spotted some nickel silver wheels on brass axles on the DC Kits web site - Australian manufacturer available in the UK.

Regards

Ray

[br2975]

"Been there, seen it, done it"

.

In my case, the answer was simple.

 

I switched to Spratt & Winkle's - after expeience with 7mm modelling.

.

You have my sympathy, I hope you resolve your problem.

.

Brian R

[Wobblinwheel]

Over here, in the U.S., one can go to an auto parts store and buy a "feeler gauge" set. Here, again, we can usually find them very cheap. The average set consists of about twenty or more varying thickness "sheets" of steel (magnetic) used to measure the "gap" between various things in the mechanical world, such as spark plug electrodes, piston ring end-gap, etc. In every case, in my experience, is each "sheet" is EXACTLY the same width, and just a tad longer than the Kadee "between the rails" magnet. Atleast a half-dozen or so of these things are thin enough to "stick" right on top of the magnet (they won't hit the rails). Bend down the leading and trailing edges as not to snag, by chance, the trip pins. By doing this, you have effectively "killed" the magnetism, and the couplers will not uncouple and little or no attraction to axles or wheels. Making a little "handle" of sorts with a magnet on one end can be used to remove the sheet when the uncoupler is needed. The only care needed is to not place them on the magnets "cockeyed" as they will short the rails, and/or snag the wheels. Contouring the front and back edges of the "sheet" helps to avoid this. I've been doing this for years without issue. By the way, the type of 'feeler gauge" I'm refering to is kind of like a "folding pocket knife" with a whole bunch of blades, all a different thickness usually in .001" increments. The thinner ones (naturally) are the only ones you can use. I don't know what you "Englanders" might call these things, but maybe someone can help me, if necessary, with my terminology!