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Suburban Coaching Stock In Use Around 1947


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Hi All,

 

I am trying to find out the types of coaches that would have been in use on suburban services, in the Reading to Paddington area, behind locos such as a .large Prairie. Would it have been non-corridor stock, or would there have been rakes of corridor stock used as well? Also, an idea of typical train lengths.

 

Any information would be helpful, and if diagram numbers are to hand as well, these would be most useful too.

 

Thanks very much.

 

Regards,

 

Mark

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Not the simplest of answers, Mark.  Before the outbreak of war London suburban sets were four non-corridor coaches - brake third, composite, composite, brake third - of several different designs.  In too safe a place for me to find at the moment is a list compiled by John Lewis which gives chapter and verse.  There were also some full firsts and loose thirds for strengthening.

 

During the war the sets were broken up following the abolition of first class for the duration.  Five coach sets were assembled - brake third, three thirds, brake third - and there was a lot of swapping round the GWR.  These were called Q sets and in one form or another lasted until the dmus arrived.  No attempt was made to keep matching designs in one set.  The full firsts were declassified and a lot of them ended up in South Wales, never to return.  After the war the Hawksworth suburbans began to arrive, displacing older stock to "the country".  Similarly when BR suburban stock started arriving in 1954-55 it displaced most of the older stock.

 

I don't know if you are a member of Robert Carroll's [robertcwp of this parish] Yahoo coaching stock group.  He has a dropbox in which may be found the station working book for Paddington in 1948  This gives the booked formation of each train leaving Padington.  That and finding some photographs of the period [not easy, I know] should give you some more to go on.

 

Chris

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A fit of the vapours led me to forget the City sets or C sets for short.  There were 9 of these, built for the through trains from GW destinations to the Metropolitan line which were electrically hauled between Paddington and Liverpool Street or Aldgate.  This service ceased with the outbreak of war but the stock survived into the 1950s.  There were nine sets of six coaches, three of which were articulated. Two brake thirds survive, at Didcot.

 

Chris

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Do you know if any of these suburban coaches would have been painted in plain chocolate around this time? I have heard that coaching stock in general did not get a lot of painting during the war but where it was necessary, most non-express stock was painted in plain chocolate due to the difficulty in sourcing the "cream".

 

I am toying with the idea of making up a 4-coach suburban set (would D117, E157, E157, D117 be correct)? I cannot decide whether to paint it in plain chocolate (easier) or choc and cream (smarter) for my post-WW2 layout. Any info or even photos (unklikely, I know) would be helpful.

Edited by Karhedron
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Matt, that last post was incomplete for which I apologise.

 

How sets were composed depends partly on where they operated.  Do I recall correctly that your line is set in the Bristol area?  As for liveries, I can only venture the comment that it takes a while for changes to be implemented.  I have seen photographs taken in South Wales around 1952 with both choc-cream and plain brown vehicles in the same set so I would not rule out freshly painted choc-cream for the period which interests you.

 

Chris

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Sorry, I got mixed up there. I think I had in mind E157, C75, C75, E157 (so Brake compo, third, third, Brake compo). You are right that the Bristol area is my region of interest. But to be honest, given the rarity of suitable GWR models, I will take any reasonably accurate formation, even if it is away form its usual stomping grounds. ;)

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A quick question on the subject of the articulated sets of 1927 mentioned by Chris above. I have been scratch building a set of these for a couple of years (as a fall back project whenever I get stuck on something else) and was wondering about the numbering. It appears to me that the six cars in each set were numbered in order and not by class e.g. 9801-9806 with 9801/6 being brake 3rds, 9802/5 all 3rds and 9803/4 as composites, the next set 9807-9812 etc. Is this correct and did any swapping around occur during shopping of the units? I'm planning on finishing the set in a mid 30's scheme so I expect they were still in matched sets. I chose to model them as they would make a nice 6 coach train only about 4 foot long (plus loco). I haven't made up my mind yet as to the single 6 unit set or one of the 2X3 cars sets. I was planning to use 247 Developments bogies for these but they now seem to be getting withdrawn so any suggestions of suitable 7' and 8'6" bogies would be helpful.

 

Dave

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Do you know if any of these suburban coaches would have been painted in plain chocolate around this time? I have heard that coaching stock in general did not get a lot of painting during the war but where it was necessary, most non-express stock was painted in plain chocolate due to the difficulty in sourcing the "cream".

 

I am toying with the idea of making up a 4-coach suburban set (would D117, E157, E157, D117 be correct)? I cannot decide whether to paint it in plain chocolate (easier) or choc and cream (smarter) for my post-WW2 layout. Any info or even photos (unklikely, I know) would be helpful.

 

My understanding is that single colour coaching stock only happened for a single year during WWII, while locomotives were painted black almost for the duration. And I thought they were painted a more reddish brown, rather than the more traditional chocolate. I would surmise that since matching rakes were not standard any colouring would be a mix of brown and chocolate/cream.

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Hi All,

 

I am trying to find out the types of coaches that would have been in use on suburban services, in the Reading to Paddington area, behind locos such as a .large Prairie. Would it have been non-corridor stock, or would there have been rakes of corridor stock used as well? Also, an idea of typical train lengths.

 

Any information would be helpful, and if diagram numbers are to hand as well, these would be most useful too.

 

Thanks very much.

 

Regards,

 

Mark

I have copies of a few of the London division local coach working books. These detail the formations of stopping trains by class of coach (ie. third, van third, composite, etc) and whether gangwayed or not. If you have a specific time period in mind let me know and I may be able to assist.

 

Nick

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  • 8 months later...

E157+C75+C75+E157 is spot on for the Avonmouth sets.  I'm sure that they were not confined to that line and if this were my parallel universe they would not be!

 

Chris

 

Some pictures of trains used on Severn Beach branch in BR days but it is not easy to pin down exactly which diagrams.

 

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4b/Lawrence_Hill_view_northward_geograph-2935634-by-Ben-Brooksbank.jpg/1024px-Lawrence_Hill_view_northward_geograph-2935634-by-Ben-Brooksbank.jpg

 

post-13188-0-93224100-1440592137_thumb.jpg

 

post-13188-0-70828800-1440592000.jpg

 

post-13188-0-90720100-1440592038.jpg

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Partial answer:

 

 

4592 at Lawrence Hill is hauling what looks like an E167 brake composite, a BR Mk 1 second on the long underframe and two early Colletts

 

4592 at Severn Beach has an E140 or E145 B set and two other vehicles that are indistinct

 

5546's train also at Severn Beach is a D132 Hawksworth brake second, what might be another Mk 1 second and two others.

 

HTH

 

Chris

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Partial answer:

 

 

4592 at Lawrence Hill is hauling what looks like an E167 brake composite, a BR Mk 1 second on the long underframe and two early Colletts

 

4592 at Severn Beach has an E140 or E145 B set and two other vehicles that are indistinct

 

5546's train also at Severn Beach is a D132 Hawksworth brake second, what might be another Mk 1 second and two others.

 

HTH

 

Chris

 

Oh! Dear. No mention of E157 - C75 - C75 - E157 in previous post from ChrisF.

 

This Avonmouth set was not so common after all which might be an escape because there are no RTR models of E157 or C75. 

 

I shall have to search again for pictures of the Avonmouth set.

 

But at least there is a Replica Railways long underframe MK1 non-corridor coach in RTR and the Airfix/ Hornby E140 B-set to start a different set from a different angle.

 

Another picture (from ebay) but this time similar to sets used on the Portihead branch.

 

post-13188-0-37729500-1440606445.jpg

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There were only five Avonmouth sets.  B sets are dead common!

 

Chris

 

Whilst looking through Russell 'Great Western Coaches Volume Two' for details of E157 and C75 coaches that made up the 4-coach Avonmouth sets viz; brake compo E157, third C75, third C75, brake compo E157; there is a summary of five related diagrams of non-corridor coaches built in late 1937.

 

On page 223 he gives the following information:

 

Diagram A21 - non-corridor - FIRST - 10 built

Diagram E156 - non-corridor - composite FIRST/ THIRD - 4 built

Diagram E157 - non-corridor - brake composite - BRAKE FIRST/ THIRD - 20 built

Diagram C75 - non-corridor - THIRD - 30 built

Diagram D125 - non-corridor - VAN THIRD - 20 built

 

It seemed to be a simple puzzle to work out how many sets this could make and of which diagrams. Turns out it is not so easy after all.

 

Using a whittled down version of the list I compiled for a previous thread I have isolated the  non-corridor coach sets that existed in 1937 or 1938 to give some sort of lead-in. Sets containing Lavatory coaches have been left out. (Thanks to ChrisF, Adrian and others for this information).

 

A set - 4 coach non-corridor - van 3rd, first, third, van 3rd {London 1937}

A set - 5 coach non-corridor - van 3rd, third, first, third, van 3rd {London 1937}

C set - 'Local C': non-corridor - van 3rd, third, composite, composite, third, van 3rd {London 1937}

D set - non-corridor - van 3rd, composite, composite, van 3rd  {London 1937}

E set - non-corridor - 3rd, first, third, van 3rd {London 1937}

G set - non-corridor - van 3rd, third, compo, compo, compo, van {London 1937}

M set - 4 coach non-corridor - van 3rd, third, composite, van 3rd

Q set - 5 coach non-corridor - van 3rd, third, third, composite, third, van 3rd

U set - 3 coach - van 3rd, composite, van 3rd {Exeter 1938}

W set - non-corridor - brake composite, third, third, third, third, third, brake composite {or van 3rd?}

W set - non-corridor - brake composite, third, third, third, third, brake composite {or van 3rd?}

{NB. The same set configuration could have a different letter in a different area of GWR territory}

 

The most common 4-coach non-corridor sets were:

BC - T - T - BC [brake composite - third - third - brake composite] Avonmouth set

BT - F - T - BT [van 3rd - first  third - van 3rd] A set, E set, 

BT - T - C - BT [van 3rd - third - composite - van 3rd] M set

BT - C - C - BT [van 3rd - composite - composite - van 3rd] D set

 

Swiftly moving on - from post #15 by ChrisF saying there were only five Avonmouth sets, that leaves fewer coaches as follows:

 

Diagram A21 - non-corridor - FIRST - 10 built

Diagram E156 - non-corridor - composite FIRST/ THIRD - 4 built

Diagram E157 - non-corridor - brake composite - BRAKE FIRST/ THIRD - 20 built

{10-off  E157 used in Avonmouth sets so 10 left to allocate to other sets}

Diagram C75 - non-corridor - THIRD - 30 built

{10-off C75 used in Avonmouth sets so 20 to allocate to other sets}

Diagram D125 - non-corridor - VAN THIRD - 20 built

 

I post this inconclusive puzzle whilst I juggle the numbers some more.

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If only it were that simple.  Do not assume that once a set was formed the coaches stayed together for ever more.  To take London as an example, before the outbreak of war the standard set was formed B-C-C-BT.  During the war the stock was rearranged into five coach sets [Q sets] and the composites declassified because first class was abolished in 1940.  When new coaches were delivered London tended to get first dibs and the older stock was cascaded to the provinces, for want of a better word.  Most of the suburban firsts in London were declassified and sent to South Wales.  Having only eight compartments they tend to stick out in photographs.

 

The Avonmouth sets got re-formed too.  They had at least two changes of third and were seen off by the dmus circa 1958.  There were four sets at first but a fifth was formed during the war from two brake thirds and a third, acquiring a composite later on.

 

Sorry!

 

Chris

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  • 2 years later...
  • 2 weeks later...

 

My local line when I was a boy (1950 -1959. Our house backed onto the cutting leading to the tunnel from Clifton Down station. Also served by GWR railcars  (a three car set IIRC W34W/W35W/W36W?*). I recall it passing from chocolate and cream (shirt buttob) to crimson and cream in 1954. The station was repainted for the Queen's visit (again 1954?). My favouite 4575 was no. 5525 (very scruffy I remember). I was quite excited by the new DMUs.

I remember the leather straps to raise/lower the door droplights. These were often missing. Allegedly, they were good for razor strops, though I would have thought the holes would have been a problem.

 

* I need to check - I know one of the centre cars was destroyed by fire and replaced by a Collett coach (1946?).

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I can help a bit with the GW railcars.  The twin sets were 35+36 and 37+38.  35+36 caught fire near Bath and was written off.  A 70 ft brake composite was rigged up to run with it but the number has slipped my mind for the time being.  I can look it up if you like.  37 was also destroyed by fire and 33 was converted to run with it.  Until this work was completed 38 was partnered for a while by 22.  A Collett C77 coach,1096, was adapted to run with the surviving twin and the three of them lasted long enough to receive lined green livery.  33+38 was still around in summer 1960 working out of Southall on a Slough - Reading - Newbury roster with one evening trip to and from Savernake.  As has been mentioned on the 116 thread, a photo exists of 33+38 on the Uxbridge branch in September 1960 but although I can see it in my mind's eye I can't find it.

 

After 35+36 were burned out there was a duty in the Bristol area for two ordinary railcars coupled.  Oh, and 34 was a parcels car based at Southall, carrying crimson livery to the end.

 

HTH

 

Chris

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