Quartering Mainline 4-6-0

[M.I.B]

My Mainline Grange decided to lock it's running gear and destroy its quartering (or vice versa).

 

Nothing is bent or broken, but I can't seem to correct it. The motor and diving wheels ( the rear pair) are willing, but the centre (electrical pic up) wheels and the front pair are determined to go out of synch immediately.

 

Is something too tight, (the lower plate that holds the axles in position)?  Or too loose?

 

How can I fix the wheels on the axles so that they remain in the correct position on each axle?

 

I am quite attached to this loco, having done a colour change (wartime black) and my first ever detailing exercise, so I am loathed to see it relegated to becoming "scenery".

 

Many thanks.

 

[brossard]

Sounds like the Mainline disease to me where the plastic bushes between the driver stub axles cracks leaving the drivers out of quarter and back to back.  There is this article if you feel ambitious:

 

http://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4369&hilit=split+chassis+loco+repair

 

Hornby has a Grange - may be time to upgrade.

 

John

[M.I.B]

Thanks John.

[M.I.B]

Tender chassis will replace a Mogul tender chassis.  Tender top and mogul tender chassis will become "scenery".

 

Motor (still not fully run in!) to spares box.

 

Name plates will await the arrival of the Hornby replacement.

 

Body and engine chassis to Evil-bay I suppose.

 

 

 

Shame because this has had less than an hour's running despite being 20 years old.

[kevinlms]

 

Shame because this has had less than an hour's running despite being 20 years old.

Almost certainly the factory applied lubrication had dried out.

[DCB]

The axles were the Mainline achilles heel, and the motor was not much better.  but Mainline never did a Grange, only the smaller Manor so I guess you have a renamed Manor. They also did a 43XX Mogul which used more or less the same chassis.   Later Bachmann upgraded the chassis with a worm drive motor progressing through bigger axles to squared axle ends and then abandoned split chassis with their later models which improved things greatly.

 

The Mainline problem is poor contact between wheel boss and chassis, any lubricant except special conductive oil caused electrical resistance which heats the wheel boss and loosens it on the plastic axle, the cure is to fit pick ups from te chassis to the backs of the wheels, my 03 had this dome 30 years ago and has outlived several Bachmann "Replacements" though its otor has been replaced several times.

Thirty years or so ago I had this trouble with a Manor and a couple of 43XX so after correcting the quartering and super gluing the wheels in place I took the motors out of two 43XX Moguls and fitted Hornby County powered tenders using tender pick up on one side and one side of the loco chassis for the other with an improvised drawbar.

The Manor wheels still would not stay put so I used Romfords with 1/8th axle bushes pressed into plastic tubes the same size as the Mainline axle holes.  The bushes on one side were soldered to connecting wires  and earthed to one side of the split chassis and again a Hornby County powered tender was used, it still runs very sweetly and is very powerful but I just don't like tender drive so it seldom gets used.

The other Manor, an original plain green Mainline one, I treated to a Triang "Hall" Chassis with Romford wheels and as much lead as I could cram in keeping the Mainline tender and it has been a stalwart of the layout for around 30 years, re liveried in clean BR lined green it looks very pretty as opposed to my usual "Weathered" look.   I also did a 43XX with a Triang chassis with Romfords which is a much better runner than the Bachmann 93XX. as it is much heavier and can pull 50% more.

 

I also have a Hornby Grange body on a Triang Hall chassis with Hornby Dublo 22mm driving wheels, it pulls much better than the standard Hornby Grange and when running looks much better as the "Scale" valve gear on the Hornby Grange looks rather effeminate. 

 

On a tangent, the Hornby/ Airfix 61XX Tank chassis is pretty awful and the Bachman runs very smoothly so I am wondering about putting a Bachmann 93XX chassis under the 61XX body with loads of lead in the side tanks......

[M.I.B]

Almost certainly the factory applied lubrication had dried out.

 

It's still in there - easy to see because it's such low mileage. 

 

I've had another look this morning - the plastic axles have gone brittle - it's easy to turn each of the wheels on it's own axle, hence why it has gone out of quarter.

 

I'm a little worried because I have 2 Manors and 2 43XXs by Mainline, of this era, all with less than an hour's running on them.   I was looking at the price of used Bachmann Manors on Evilbay...........

[M.I.B]

.  but Mainline never did a Grange, ................................................................. Later Bachmann upgraded the chassis with a worm drive motor progressing through bigger axles to squared axle ends and then abandoned split chassis with their later models which improved things greatly.

 Brilliant post David - many thanks.   My Grange was indeed a renamed Manor - I have just checked.    It's now been broken.

 

I've seen 2 versions of the Bachmann Manors - one has "New flywheel drive" on the box, and the later type packaging has no exciting news on it.  Should I avoid the "new flywheel drive" versions?

Edited December 8, 2014 by M.I.B

[brossard]

Excellent post David.  Markits wheels aren't cheap (10.00 per axle?) so, given that, and the work involved, if it were me, I would probably go for a new loco.  However, MIB has said that this particular model has an emotional attachment, so maybe worth it.  The other, even more extreme, solution would be to build an etched chassis.  However, that is going to be very expensive and take a lot of effort.  All depends on what the modeler is looking for.

 

I recollect that early Bachmann locos with split chassis had flywheel wormgears - is this what you mean MIB?  IMO, these have the same issue as the Mainline models.  The difference is that B made the stub axles from square instead of round section.  The axles still go brittle and fail (as I've found), so, if it were me, I would avoid these.  Newly designed B models don't have flywheels but do have excellent drive trains (and metal axles) and I think most of the range has been upgraded..

 

John

[M.I.B]

Thanks John.  I will stick to the Bachmann Manors with the later style of packing.

 

I've made a tough decision and the Mainline "Grange" is already broken up as described in an earlier post up there ^^^^^^

 

The plates came off easily with a scalpel and they will go onto the Hornby one when it is purchased.  Tender top will live on as scenery on a different chassis, "dumped" somewhere in the shed area.

[jwealleans]

probably too late for you, MIB, but I was directed to this this morning. First I've heard of it, but it may be of interest to others with similar problems.

[brossard]

There are two points raised in the other thread (J72 with the same problem) about these retrofit axles.  

 

1)  They are suitable for the J72 (gearwheels may be different) and may be OK for others but this hasn't been shown.  Bill said he is looking at other locos.

 

2)  Someone pointed out that the material used in 3D printing may not have the strength for this application.  I suppose some brave soul will have to try them and see how they do. 

 

John

[M.I.B]

Thanks Jonathan,

 

As I have 2 Manors and 2 Moguls which will get this ailment in the future I bought 4 sets of those replacement gears.   Postage is a bit steep, but 4 sets bought together brought the delivered cost down to £5 each.  Add a few pence for some Araldite.....  £5 each is a small price to pay compared to the alternatives:

 

4 sets of Romfords

 

4  brass chassis

 

2 Bachmann Manors on Evilbay

 

 

The discovery of these would probably not saved my Grange - In the cold light of day I can see that my weathering and detailing is way better now than when I did this, and it wasn't a "real" Grange anyway.  I will save my pennies, take some lemonade bottles back to the off license and pray for a Hornby Grange cheap on Ebay in January when everyone else is skint.

[TheWeatheringMan]

There are two points raised in the other thread (J72 with the same problem) about these retrofit axles.  

 

1)  They are suitable for the J72 (gearwheels may be different) and may be OK for others but this hasn't been shown.  Bill said he is looking at other locos.

 

2)  Someone pointed out that the material used in 3D printing may not have the strength for this application.  I suppose some brave soul will have to try them and see how they do. 

 

John

Hi,

It was me who mentioned the potential problem with printed gears not being able to take the wearing forces - this was based on my knowledge of events in the USA.

Another problem is actually mentioned in the advert for these gears/muffs.

This is the well known 'grainy' surface of printed parts.

If you think about it a gear with such a surface will be like a motorised file and the effect is perfectly predictable.

Obviously two gears exhibiting this surface will offer considerable resistance to smooth operation until they wear each other down - at which point the 'grain' of the plastic will be opened such that the material splits due to lublicant absorbtion or simple mechanical stress.

I think we are seeing here technology being used outside its intended limits at this point - as has happened before in our hobby.

Time will tell and the technology will improve but for now many will say at this point its not the answer for the above reasons.

Regards

Edited December 9, 2014 by TheWeatheringMan

[brossard]

Perhaps some judicious sanding/polishing of the gear tooth faces can reduce the "sandpaper" effect.  I read that the material is used for springs so fatigue (high freq. repeated bending) shouldn't be an issue.  Then again, someone also pointed out that for the price, these are worth a try.

 

I think that with new technology, pushing the envelope is not a bad thing - empirical determinism.

 

John

[TheWeatheringMan]

Perhaps some judicious sanding/polishing of the gear tooth faces can reduce the "sandpaper" effect.  I read that the material is used for springs so fatigue (high freq. repeated bending) shouldn't be an issue.  Then again, someone also pointed out that for the price, these are worth a try.

 

I think that with new technology, pushing the envelope is not a bad thing - empirical determinism.

 

John

Hi John,

Nice idea but sanding the tooth faces could very easily alter the profile randomly so that smooth meshing became a problem.

I'm actually quite looking forward to hearing how well printed gears work out when someone tries them under normal model running conditions unlike the tests in the USA. The results will be interesting (after a period of time to properly test them) as a potential way forward.

It wont be me i'm afraid as the several Bachmann locos i've had the 'loose wheel' problem with have been fixed by using a moulded gear on new turned muffs.

I await the longer term results of printed gears with interest.

Regards

[billbedford]

Some reference to these alleged 'tests' would be useful, otherwise your input just looks like a spoiler.

[brossard]

Not sure what the fuss is all about.  This product has the potential to breathe new life into peoples' beloved locomotives.  How many hours does a model loco run in a year anyway?  It's not like we're talking about automotive use for the gear.  Even if the gear does fail after a few hours, the price is reasonable enough to replace it time and again.

 

John

[KGV]

I had this issue with a Bachmann Hall.  Two of the axle spacers had split in half.

 

I sent a message to the Bachmann Service Dept via their website, who provided sets of axle spacers at £2 per set, with £2 P&P. 

 

It took be 30 minutes to fit them, including time to adjust them as I initially managed to have the wheels halved instead of quartered on the first attempt!  Oops!

I also used a 14.5mm Back to Back gauge from Peters Spares to adjust the spacing, but this is a bit fiddly as the plastic spacers are so fat the gauge does not fit properly.

 

However, I now seem to also have a bent connecting rod, so it is moving like a clockwork crab at the moment.  But better than not moving at all?

 

Anyway, if you have cracked axle spacers, get in touch with Bachmann.  £2 per set is a lot cheaper than elsewhere and they are the bona-fide part.

Edited December 20, 2014 by KGV

[melmerby]

On a tangent, the Hornby/ Airfix 61XX Tank chassis is pretty awful and the Bachman runs very smoothly so I am wondering about putting a Bachmann 93XX chassis under the 61XX body with loads of lead in the side tanks......

Got two of the Hornby 51XX/61XX and they run very smoothly and with plenty of weight pull a reasonable load.

Not perfect, but certainly not rubbish like every Mainline Loco (4) I had was!

 

Keith

[PetersSpares]

Hi everyone Peter from Peters Spares here, We have just had some of the Mainline Axle and drive Axles into stock they are in our eBay store and on our website under PS codes if you are on our web site either give 'mainline axle' a search or visit the spares section and navigate to Mainline Spares. They are £5.99 per set. Thanks Peter

[vikingsmb]

just ordered 2 pannier ones now, to have a go at revitalising a chassis. bit of experimentation 

[melmerby]

These split axles complete both with or without gears are also available as a set on the Shapeways site.