Hornby 2015 Announcements now made

[hammy]

Made my mind up 1 graffiti coach nice bit of weathering sat in a weed infested overgrown siding on my shed layout reckon that would look good well done Hornby for think outside if the box although I still refuse to buy and NMT coaches or locos because as soon as I had brought all the coaches locos brass window blanks paint Hornby announced there's lol hahaha tounge firmly in cheek

[60027Merlin]

I note the comments regarding the new K Type Pullman Cars with the view taken by some that they are not really required.

 

That may be the case for those modelling the southern areas however for us modelling the ECML in the north that is from e.g. York to Glasgow then these Pullman Cars are very much required being the correct type used for The Queen of Scots and Tees-Tyne Pullmans. I fail to understand how the old Triang Cars are deemed suitable for us whilst further south the Super Detail Cars are just fine!

[ruggedpeak]

My issue is some of the prices !! The HSTs are £209.99 for a power and a dummy!!!! Yet Rapido is able to make two powers and two coaches for £225.00 It just doesn't add up, 

 

And this Railroad Golden Shuttle is £76.99 and the Railroad Mallard is £84.99.........why ? 

 

The Rapido APT-E is I think a fairly unique situation. I'd be surprised if they make inroads into the UK market they are still doing 2 cars and 2 coaches for £225 in a few years. Prepared to eat my hat on that one but........

 

I also pledged for a N gauge 9 car Pendolino despite having no N gauge track! £255 for a 9 car EMU? Bargain of the century or am I missing something? (and they are doing the Poppy one! )

 

Pricing is not necessarily related to cost - Mallards will always sell as they are famous, so more can be charged.

[Fenman]

My issue is some of the prices !! The HSTs are £209.99 for a power and a dummy!!!! Yet Rapido is able to make two powers and two coaches for £225.00 It just doesn't add up, 

 

And this Railroad Golden Shuttle is £76.99 and the Railroad Mallard is £84.99.........why ? 

 

Interestingly, Rapido aren't selling their APT-E through a network of small retailers, each of which has their own overheads and profit margin to add to the price. They are also of course a much smaller operation, so the cost of overheads they have to bear is likely to be more modest.

 

And, of course, Hornby have to sell their own products at the RRP charged by their retailers, otherwise they are accused of deliberately undercutting the local model shops.

 

So you're probably "over-paying" when you buy direct from Hornby, effectively in order to subsidise the local model shops (notwithstanding that the trade margin now offered to them is considerably lower than it used to be).

 

Paul

[Removed a/c]

Hattons have the HST on for £194.00 hardly the savings of the century though  Just a couple of month ago they were able to sell the Western Region HST for £160.00

 

And a Hornby 08 is almost £45.00 more than a Bachmann one, come on !! 

[OOgaugeJaf]

Probably the wrong thread to ask but are Bachmann announcing in December? Was the July announcements for next year also.

[Unknown Warrior]

Probably the wrong thread to ask but are Bachmann announcing in December? Was the July announcements for next year also.

I understand that Bachmann will be returning to their normal March slot for the 2015-16 Catalogue.

[hammy]

Hattons have the HST on for £194.00 hardly the savings of the century though Just a couple of month ago they were able to sell the Western Region HST for £160.00

 

And a Hornby 08 is almost £45.00 more than a Bachmann one, come on !!

The Hornby 08 in my opinion is a far better model and worth the extra don't forget it was a complete retool not so long back

[JSpencer]

My issue is some of the prices !! The HSTs are £209.99 for a power and a dummy!!!! Yet Rapido is able to make two powers and two coaches for £225.00 It just doesn't add up, 

 

And this Railroad Golden Shuttle is £76.99 and the Railroad Mallard is £84.99.........why ?

 

There is probably as many bits in those 2 power cars as the APT-E. At the same, Rapido does not need to stock and dispatch the items, likewise, as you have to pay a lump up front, it cuts out some bank loans and variations in exchange rates.

 

Finally compare the price of these 2 power cars to the NRM Atlantic. I am actually amazed the price has not increased sharply over the years. The railroad stuff is starting to match Uk made 1990s locos of the same types yet are still better than them.

[Unknown Warrior]

The Hornby 08 in my opinion is a far better model and worth the extra don't forget it was a complete retool not so long back

I have examples of both and would not spend the extra £45 for the Hornby version for use on a layout. If you want to put it in a display case,you might pay the extra.

 

As a mater of interest I paid £45 brand new for my Hornby version about a year after it's relaease!

[hammy]

Last 08 I brought was the EWS sound fitted one from Hornby for an eye watering £200 but it looks nice all kitted up with a nice dusting of weathering

[JSpencer]

The issue of the Graffiti coach is slightly more complex than some think.

 

The idea should be commended by Hornby for trying to think of something else that drives the product and offers something different, allowing a modeller to run with something that gets attention and allows a dose of realism on their layout. However, while the Hornby design team might like the idea, the implimentation has caused a few issues. Again, this is more about Hornby knowing and researching more about the transition period but then less accurate about more modern movements and events. The graffiti on coaches is a more modern thing, but so tour would be the return of maroon stock onto the network to run on railtours. While you might want a coach like this sat in a siding permamently, its a lot for such a idea. Rather its there to be something thats been 'tagged' and still in use. But railtours and stock are normally kept clean. Steam engines today glisten in polish rather than look unkempt. The idea of graffiti would have been better on stock such as Blue and Grey, Regional or Network South east, but Hornby are not modelling these yet and as such have married the idea to a run of stock they are doing. Its this forced approach to get the idea done quickly thats caused the hic-up, as while its something different, its implimentation makes it questionable as how its been done doesnt look right.

 

Commend them for trying, but again Hornby need to check on Modern stock and practice more before bringing their products to market and avoiding this debate and controversy over what is essencially a good idea.

I must admit I have moral issues on this one. Graffiti is paint of the wrong colour in the wrong place yet it does exist and makes for a very sorry sight.

 

We could take this realism further. Terrorist attacks are also a part of modern life, should Hornby do an exploding coach where by you insert a fire cracker into it? It would certainly be out of the box thinking and maybe some fanatics would take up the hobby! But the point of why I am against the graffiti coach is the same as that I would be against a terrorist coach. In that we should not start to normalise and accept what is vandalism, terrorism and other sorts of criminal and horrific events.

[scorpion]

model shops in Ireland contain dioramas/layouts portraying the troubles, they are as valid as any 2nd world war model, just a bit more recent

 

they were very detailed and certainly thought provoking

 

a graffitied coach is a bit of a non event in comparison

[bigherb]

 

And a Hornby 08 is almost £45.00 more than a Bachmann one, come on !! 

You can't really compare the Bachmann 2014 price with the Hornby 2015 price we will have to wait till March to compare the 2015 Bachmann price.

[jjb1970]

As has been pointed out Rapido are not selling the APT-E via regular retail channels and have de-risked the project by applying the pre-order model. In a sense, Hornby and Bachmann cannot win, if they retain regular retail channels and put things out via general release the product prices will have to reflect that, if they move to all pre-order and a direct sales model then they'd be pilloried. And UK modellers still get an excellent deal compared to mainland European models not to mention that US models are not the bargains they once were.

 

On the grafitti Mk.1 coach, it is not my thing but I think it is a light hearted fun release that will catch a lot of attention and probably generate quite a few impulse sales. I really don't see anything objectionable to it and do see positives. Many manufacturers have released grafitti models and they do make a very eye catchin addition.

[Unknown Warrior]

You can't really compare the Bachmann 2014 price with the Hornby 2015 price we will have to wait till March to compare the 2015 Bachmann price.

Fair comment.

[MikeHunter]

Personally I think Hornby have done quite well with this selection. I'll be restocking my suburban coach fleet. Looks to me like they are none lav so different to the Airfix/Dapol tooling, is that correct?

 

Absolutely delighted with the LMS coaches and horse box, please produce enough brakes though Hornby, most of us will want two per set....

 

Major gap now in 00 LMS coaching is push pull....and an open 3rd Stanier to replace the Replica model that sells for stupid prices on eBay

 

Disappointed there is no new LMS loco, maybe a Johnson 0-4-4 from someone instead of 3 million radials, though Hornbys model looks good and well advanced.

[The Stationmaster]

The issue of the Graffiti coach is slightly more complex than some think.

 

The idea should be commended by Hornby for trying to think of something else that drives the product and offers something different, allowing a modeller to run with something that gets attention and allows a dose of realism on their layout. However, while the Hornby design team might like the idea, the implimentation has caused a few issues. Again, this is more about Hornby knowing and researching more about the transition period but then less accurate about more modern movements and events. The graffiti on coaches is a more modern thing, but so tour would be the return of maroon stock onto the network to run on railtours. While you might want a coach like this sat in a siding permamently, its a lot for such a idea. Rather its there to be something thats been 'tagged' and still in use. But railtours and stock are normally kept clean. Steam engines today glisten in polish rather than look unkempt. The idea of graffiti would have been better on stock such as Blue and Grey, Regional or Network South east, but Hornby are not modelling these yet and as such have married the idea to a run of stock they are doing. Its this forced approach to get the idea done quickly thats caused the hic-up, as while its something different, its implimentation makes it questionable as how its been done doesnt look right.

 

Commend them for trying, but again Hornby need to check on Modern stock and practice more before bringing their products to market and avoiding this debate and controversy over what is essencially a good idea.

As there are Mk1 coaches in atrocious condition in maroon livery (of a sort), and sometimes graffit'd, out there in the real world what on earth is wrong with making a model of one?  Hornby are issuing a model of a preserved 'Castle' and a preserved 'King' and, I think a preserved 'radial tank' - so what the ehck is wrong with doing a coach?  Why is it so contentious - after all 'modellers' are hardly likely to buy it whatever livery it happens to be in and if they want a blue & grey coach covered in graffiti it could be regarded as an opportunity for bit of painting practice.

 

It's not aimed at the 'modeller' part of the market, it will or won't be successful in the market area it is aimed at - that is a commercial punt which Hornby are taking.  The 700 and the J15 are, just as much, Hornby trying to do something for the 'modeller' market and if they bomb or don't do as well as is required that is the sort of failure which might jeopardise fture investment in that market area, not if soem graffiti'd coach happens to bomb.

[phil-b259]

See edit above! Also not all routes on the SR. using non corridor stock were electrified!

No not all were but you need to appreciate the effect electrification had on the need for new suburban / non corridor stock.

 

The electrification of the London suburban area (which was COMPLETE by 1930) meant that vast numbers of non corridor stock became surplus to requirements. By 1938 you also had the entire south coast between Hastings and Portsmouth equipped with 3rd rail EMUs displacing large quantities of non corridor stock previously used for local / stopping / Suburban duties (the NOLs BILs and HALs being the replacements)

 

Rather than scrap it outright, the Southern either transferred it out to rural branch lines or rebuilt the bodies onto new underframes. Said rebuilding produced both EMUs and steam hauled stock but because the rebuilt coaches were made from sometimes up to 3 pre grouping bodies , the appearance, body mouldings and general styling varied quite considerably between coaches with identical seating capacity.

 

The only new non corridor stock the SR built was a few100 seaters originally ordered by the SECR just before grouping.

 

The upshot of all this is that no model manufacturer can produce "Southern suburban" stock in the same manor as Hornby have done for the LNER and now the LMS both of which invested in complete new build stock of a standardised design and which was used all over their respective areas.

 

While it is true that Bachmann are planning to release the SECR designed and built 'birdcage' coaches you need to remember that these are NOT "Southern suburban coaches". They were never used west of the Brighton main line for example while the LSWR stock formed into 3 coach sets for local duties was never found to the east of said Brighton mainline.

 

Furthermore due to the more generous loading gauge used by the LBSCR and it's standardisation on the Westinghouse air brake for passenger stock, after the electrification of the Brighton main line in 1932' (plus to Eastbourne & Hastings line in 1935 then the Arun Valley & Portsmouth lines in 1938) most LBSCR stock was scrapped with ex SECR and LSWR stock being drafted in where necessary.

 

Thus calls for "Southern suburban stock" are pointless as said stock NEVER existed.

[Thom]

I preordered all silver A4s from Hatton's.They are shown on their web site, just as on Hornby's web site, as being available individually. I have since heard from Hatton's that Hornby might just sell them as complete sets of 4 locos, and if so, then they will only sell them as sets, as well. Huh? So, let me get this right. Hornby lists them on their web site as being available individually, but they may not be available the way they are listed? And this makes sense how?

 

Before anyone attacks me and says why does it matter if I want all 4, it does because, first of all, they are listed that way, and second I know there are modelers who want only one or two of them. The Great Gathering/Goodbye A4s were sold individually and I was able to get the 2 that I wanted. If those A4s were available individually, (and they clearly were seen together and marketed as a set,) why would these not be?

 

And, for the record, I am well aware that any responses here will only be opinion. The only factual answers would come from Hornby.

[The Black Hat]

As there are Mk1 coaches in atrocious condition in maroon livery (of a sort), and sometimes graffit'd, out there in the real world what on earth is wrong with making a model of one?  Hornby are issuing a model of a preserved 'Castle' and a preserved 'King' and, I think a preserved 'radial tank' - so what the ehck is wrong with doing a coach?  Why is it so contentious - after all 'modellers' are hardly likely to buy it whatever livery it happens to be in and if they want a blue & grey coach covered in graffiti it could be regarded as an opportunity for bit of painting practice.

 

It's not aimed at the 'modeller' part of the market, it will or won't be successful in the market area it is aimed at - that is a commercial punt which Hornby are taking.  The 700 and the J15 are, just as much, Hornby trying to do something for the 'modeller' market and if they bomb or don't do as well as is required that is the sort of failure which might jeopardise fture investment in that market area, not if soem graffiti'd coach happens to bomb.

 

Im not saying making the model of a grafitied coach is wrong. Im actually supporting the idea. What Im saying is that the choice of livery means that it undermines the effort that they want to create - which is a tagged coach, running in a set on a current themed layout. But maroon is a bad choice for this. A maroon rake now is normally only found with WCRC on the mainline and as soon as their coach is hit, it would be swapped. You might find one hiding in a yard somewhere, but again its a coach long out of use in a faded older livery, or a coach thats overed and been in storage for years. Most likely a RES guv, BG, etc. Most stuff maroon now has been restored and repainted back to its BR transition period appearance, and preserved railways want to look after their stock and are careful not to let things get damaged.

The grafiti tag is a newer icon and while the idea of doing it on a model is great, really the prototype needs to be more in tune with what youd expect. On a Mk. 1 that means a livery other than maroon, or better still, do it on a larger freight wagon, where such a sight is a lot more common.

[Ozexpatriate]

Im not saying making the model of a grafitied coach is wrong. Im actually supporting the idea. What Im saying is that the choice of livery means that it undermines the effort that they want to create - which is a tagged coach, running in a set on a current themed layout.

Why is the graffiti coach so important that we continue to debate it?

 

Yes the graffiti is modern and the coach is old and in an old livery. It is nonetheless plausible, if not very representative. It's not a serious model. My guess, given it's uniqueness, is that it will sell out quickly.

 

By the way I did say something essentially similar to your comments (with a different emphasis) on Wednesday.

[Ian Hargrave]

Fair comment.

I preordered all silver A4s from Hatton's.They are shown on their web site, just as on Hornby's web site, as being available individually. I have since heard from Hatton's that Hornby might just sell them as complete sets of 4 locos, and if so, then they will only sell them as sets, as well. Huh? So, let me get this right. Hornby lists them on their web site as being available individually, but they may not be available the way they are listed? And this makes sense how?

 

Before anyone attacks me and says why does it matter if I want all 4, it does because, first of all, they are listed that way, and second I know there are modelers who want only one or two of them. The Great Gathering/Goodbye A4s were sold individually and I was able to get the 2 that I wanted. If those A4s were available individually, (and they clearly were seen together and marketed as a set,) why would these not be?

 

And, for the record, I am well aware that any responses here will only be opinion. The only factual answers would come from Hornby.

Might you just be the victim of some ( not so ) slick marketing by Hattons ? They are frequently "creative" in their approach to pre ordering,listing models as " currently unavailable" or "sold out at manufacturer" when they are not.

Factual answers from Hornby ? I'll keep my tongue firmly in my cheek for a while yet.Don't hold your breath on that assertion.

Incidentally,why should anyone want to criticise you for wanting eye catching versions of a superb model ? I'll be wanting two myself.

Which begs the question .....27th Sept. 2015 maks the 80th anniversary of the inaugural run of The Silver Jubilee.So that your silver Streaks will look suitably dressed......where's the brand new to- current- standards coach set that is necessary to replace the Toytown version Hornby are currently marketing ? Unless there are secret plans awaiting,this is a trick missed. Surely not ?

[Dunsignalling]

I must admit I have moral issues on this one. Graffiti is paint of the wrong colour in the wrong place yet it does exist and makes for a very sorry sight.

 

 

 

And the expanses of Buddleia over much of the modern lineside are plants in the wrong place and also a sorry sight but any layout purporting to represent the current scene would look pretty unrealistic without it.

 

From a modelling viewpoint, it would have been more convincing if the coach were based on a blue/grey or NSE livery but, unless one wants to model an idealised version of reality (plenty do, and good luck to them so long as they don't present their modelling as factual), graffiti is a fact of modern life.

 

My interest lies in rural districts circa 1960 so I generally don't have to concern myself with either!  

 

John

[Dunsignalling]

Um. S15 and "King Arthur" classes were both 4-6-0s?

B1 & O1 had the name number of wheels as each other but differently arranged (4-6-0 and 2-8-0). Ditto for the A4 (4-6-2) & P2 (2-8-2).

 

Strikes me as quite a bigger difference.

Same tender, same cab, same boiler (though, admittedly more sheeted over on an A4).

 

If they were alongside a platform you were standing on, you would have to look twice to be sure. 

 

My point is, that the S15 and King Arthur are similar only in outline and that does apply to the locos I cited. They are certainly no more alike than an LMS Black Five and a Jubilee and I won't go near the can of worms that is the family resemblance between GWR types.

 

John