Hornby 2015 Announcements now made

['CHARD]

Hornby are going prog?   Oh that explains a lot.  

 

Rambling indecipherable pricing policy courtesy of Rick Wakeman.

 

Gong putting the graffiti coach top of their wish-list since 1971.

 

Inexplicable withdrawal of guaranteed top-sellers a la Syd Barrett. 

 

Railroad strategy formulated on a lysergic come-down.

[Forester]

No one dare mention Grammar schools today, but it has been completely forgotten that the grammar school system was not a two-tier system but a three-tier system. The forgotten tier was the highly successful Technical school sector. When the Grammar schools closed so did the Technical schools. The country never really suffered from a shortage of academics from the lost grammar schools because, by definition, these people will tend to find their way through any system by their own study if necessary, whether in dedicated schools or not, but the loss of the technical schools was catastrophic to the economy of this country in my view. You can't really (or at least, efficiently) teach yourself technical skills.

 

...and don't get me going about the Colleges of Advanced Technology which all became universities and ended up teaching film studies.

[G-BOAF]

Lol like it locoholic and tend to agree on your views on people fit to run a business.

 

I think an issue maybe that Hornby either don't have access to their old tooling or it needs modification before it can be produced by new vendors. This would account for the lack of "obvious livery options" on existing tooling. Going back to the new range of Pullmans , I can only assume the original tools are not available , hence the new range. The current Pullmans are available from Hattons at "bargain" price of £25.

 

Yes would quite fancy a single chimney Castle with Collet tender and late BR crest, sort of like the original H-D Bristol Castle . As far as I know a combination that Hornby hasn't produced yet

The new 2015 Churchill train pack contains the original detailed pullmans, so it would seem the tooling is available for use.

[Derekstuart]

Andy Hayter

 

Yes I know that oil has increased by an average of £60 per barrel over the time period in question. Yes I know that plastics are derived from oil based products. Yes I know that the cost of aluminimum has increased by £540 per ton.

 

However, that is not a good way to look at it. Now I don't know what percentage of the oil from the barrel is used to make the plastic- but certainly it will not waste the rest, will it?

 

Let us just assume that the cost of the raw oil is thus £60 per barrel. Aluminium has shot from £90 p/t to £600 p/t- a large increase.

 

But let us now look at how much of the raw materials actually goes into each model- not enough to account for that cost increase on its own- unless you add about 440lb in weight to give better adhesion anyway. So I think we can rule out raw material costs for anything more than say £10.

 

Of course, there's import tax- which is the "hidden" cost in moving production offshore.

 

No, I'll stick with my belief- that the management of Hornby were looking to make a quick profit without thought for the longer term future (most British based "manufacturers" are the same... profit now, good bonus and then leave the next generation of directors to pick up the pieces.

[Derekstuart]

Horsefan,

 

That's an old- but very apt- one. Perhaps it would have been more accurate for me to say that the Chinese think very far into the future. Let's face it, when you think how long it took them to build their great wall, knowing it would be generations before it's finished, it's not a new way of thought for them.

 

As much as I might criticise them for some aspects of their work, planning is one area they excel in.

 

 

Chou En-Lai, the Communist Chinese Premier, was once asked about the impact of the French Revolution. He said he thought it was too early to say....

 

 

[Derekstuart]

Excuse the third row in a post. I'm on my soapbox now.

 

This is very true indeed jjb1970. In my job running a company, I have had to recruit abroad to fix labour shortages. Though I am doing something most companies do not- training up the NEXT generation of staff HERE.

In my industry, (and I'm trying to avoid opening the politics can of worms) and most others, a certain pm was inherently against investment in the future- "today" "today" "today" was all she was interested in. Encouraged greed in "I" "me" "myself" and gave no thought to the future. This was before I was in a senior enough position to do anything about it.

 

Now I have the best of both worlds- I have a mix of British and foreign workers, with different skills blended together- BUT it is all under MY control HERE.

 

One of the things to remember is that educated and skilled are not the same. The UK has a lot of very well educated people but also an acute skilled shortage and apparent contradictions where skilled craftspeople can earn considerably more than degree qualified professional staff as a result of the laws of supply and demand. When I worked in electricity skilled coded welders who could both pass the NDE and weld inspection and also do it quickly were as rare as the proverbial and paid silly money in the outage season. I'm talking about the high end welders, not the run of the mills guys. Where I work considerably less than half of the staff are British and the immigrants are paid the same salaries as British workers in addition to recieving relocation, having their immigration/legal costs funded etc, which is not cheap. We are currently advertising for a number of posts and have recieved one application from a British native which I find a bit depressing. The roles we are recruiting for carry salaries in the range £40 - 70k so are not minimum wage. Quite how we have ended up with simultaneous high unemployment and an acute skills shortage is a long and complex story I think (not helped in the 1990's by creating a culture where everybody had to have a degree and writing off traditional vocational training as being for those too dim for university) but this apparent contradiction is a very real one in my experience.

 

 

BENNY- that is probably the daftest thing I have heard yet.

To change the subject to cars as a clearer example, what you are doing is comparing a 1970's Austin to a 2014 Mercedes and saying "Britain can't build as good cars as the Germans".

It is true to say that the move to China saw investment in new technology. A factory move from Margate to Manchester could equally have seen the same thing. Or are you saying the Britain is inherently poor at manufacturing and that China is inherently better?

 

If that is the case (and particularly if we can expand to manufacturing generally, rather than just model trains) I think we'd need our own thread, possibly forum.
 

The

 

 

 

The fact is that Hornby's Margate factory was never capable of producing models to the same standard as the likes of Kader was the real reason why production was moved to China. Bachmann were becoming a major competitor because they were producing models that were a much higher standard than Hornby's, but at the same price. I remember how reviewers were constantly stating how the paint finish/printing on even old Hornby models was much better when they started to be produced in China, because of the modern techniques that they use. Don't forget that Chinese factories have been producing high quality models since the 70s when Hornby were still producing "hey lets re-use this bogie/chassis from another model as it has the same number of wheels" type models.

 

Now, Hornby could have invested in modern production techniques in their own factories, but we would have ended up with Fleischman etc. price levels which UK modellers wouldn't have tolerated, so they had no real choice other than to move production to China.

[dibber25]

The new 2015 Churchill train pack contains the original detailed pullmans, so it would seem the tooling is available for use.

I recall that, when I produced Churchill's funeral train for Model Rail several years ago, using the ancient corridor-fitted utility van and the previous generation of Pullmans, I had some difficulty coupling the very old style tension-lock to the newer version. I don't suppose I'll get to see the new set for review but I wonder what, if anything, has been done to overcome the semi-incompatible couplers.

[phil gollin]

.

 

........... When I worked in electricity skilled coded welders who could both pass the NDE and weld inspection and also do it quickly were as rare as the proverbial and paid silly money in the outage season. ...........

 

.

.

 

Ah  . . . . . the joy.  I even remember going into cooling boilers (after the loony scaffolders) looking for leaks !

 

.

[Andy Y]

I recall that, when I produced Churchill's funeral train for Model Rail several years ago, using the ancient corridor-fitted utility van and the previous generation of Pullmans, I had some difficulty coupling the very old style tension-lock to the newer version. I don't suppose I'll get to see the new set for review but I wonder what, if anything, has been done to overcome the semi-incompatible couplers.

 

 

Looking at the supplied image Chris I think the answer, unfortunately, is nothing. I'd think it quite unlikely they'd re-tool anything on the old bogies to incorporate an NEM socket.

 

I think from the other part of your statement you're probably equally perplexed how the sum total of the hobby's media could have been allowed to walk away from the session at Margate without review samples of the Horse Box, Hopper and K1 to get reviewed for each mag at the opportune time for when products are on the retailer's shelves. Someone, in my opinion, either doesn't think enough, doesn't care enough or think they don't need it.

[bigherb]

No, I'll stick with my belief- that the management of Hornby were looking to make a quick profit without thought for the longer term future (most British based "manufacturers" are the same... profit now, good bonus and then leave the next generation of directors to pick up the pieces.

They didn't really have much choice when their major competitor is a Hong Kong/Chinese based company reaping the benefits of low production costs.

[tomparryharry]

We have had a poor reputation as a producer of quality stuff, whether it be a model locomotive, or a gas cooker. I've seen some high-tech kit produced here, but the tarnish of 50+ years of low product quality will take a time to wear off. I don't believe that German (or other countries) can really beat us, but we keep building down to price, instead of up to standard.

 

Hornby fell into that trap only a couple of years back. What's that? Design clever?

 

I don't want to knock Hornby; I want them to knock me. I'm not worried about price/cost; I'm interested in quality. After all, to use a car analogy from the 70's, Allegro or Golf?

 

Shipping second rate kit half way around the world does not help your image, especially when you're trading on your history.

 

Ian

[pete_mcfarlane]

We have had a poor reputation as a producer of quality stuff, whether it be a model locomotive, or a gas cooker. I've seen some high-tech kit produced here, but the tarnish of 50+ years of low product quality will take a time to wear off. I don't believe that German (or other countries) can really beat us, but we keep building down to price, instead of up to standard.

 

It's not really the manufacturers fault for doing this - a big (and rather loud) chunk of the British public expects everything to be on sale for peanuts and complains that they are being 'ripped off' if products cost more than this. 

[tomparryharry]

It's not really the manufacturers fault for doing this - a big (and rather loud) chunk of the British public expects everything to be on sale for peanuts and complains that they are being 'ripped off' if products cost more than this. 

 

Sorry, I don't buy that. Why do we buy 'quality' goods from elsewhere?

 

I'd suggest it's a lack of educating the public to buy better, wherever the product is made. If you want the best, buy the best. Just expect to pay a bit more for it.

 

I'd expected to pay far more for my 42xx's. I'd geared myself to pay more.

 

The product fell far short of my expectations, but not my wallet.

 

Now, I'm faced with possibly buying a third 42xx, to add to my collection. The price has gone up - fine.

 

Has the quality improved, or is it just inflation?

 

Ian 

[Derekstuart]

Well we keep being told that they are STILL making a loss- so it didn't really work, did it? roughly 400% increases in RRP, with lower margins for retailers and far more automation in the production sequence (and we've already dismissed raw materials as a major contributor to cost increase).

I have to buy and sell abroad and I am telling you that what used to be cheap in China is now still slightly cheaper than Britain, but not much. (and as I work in a safety critical environment, and that QC in China is somewhat lacking, we don't buy from them anymore anyway).
 

They didn't really have much choice when their major competitor is a Hong Kong/Chinese based company reaping the benefits of low production costs.

 

I used to manage a petrol station. It is in a rural area and a farmer came in bemoaning British people for buying foreign imports of meat etc and that he was being pushed down in price all the time.

 

He was totally unable to grasp the irony of him then getting into a Japanese 4wd (because it was cheaper than a Land Rover)... 

Britain USED TO be expensive to manufacture compared to abroad. The margin is much narrowed now, without import and transport costs to consider. But for too long, you are right, we were building to price and not specification. But that's politically led and I think that's outside the scope of this thread, isn't it?

We have had a poor reputation as a producer of quality stuff, whether it be a model locomotive, or a gas cooker. I've seen some high-tech kit produced here, but the tarnish of 50+ years of low product quality will take a time to wear off. I don't believe that German (or other countries) can really beat us, but we keep building down to price, instead of up to standard.

 

Hornby fell into that trap only a couple of years back. What's that? Design clever?

 

I don't want to knock Hornby; I want them to knock me. I'm not worried about price/cost; I'm interested in quality. After all, to use a car analogy from the 70's, Allegro or Golf?

 

Shipping second rate kit half way around the world does not help your image, especially when you're trading on your history.

 

Ian

 

 

In my company I regularly have joe public moaning that our prices are too high- but they have no idea of what MY costs are. The realities are you do not charge "costs + X% profit", you charge what you can get away with (or "what the market will bear" to use the official term).

Someone somewhere will have worked out that it is better to sell X units at £Y than A units at £B, and that's all there is to it.

 

I personally am more than happy to pay £135 for a locomotive such as the Hornby 60. Lovely bit of kit. BUT am I think expected to get out a ruler and make sure its accurate and that there aren't any "cl 31" errors? Or am I merely expected to wait 3 years to see if the chassis disintegrates? Paying quality money means you must get quality for it. (though I applaud Hornby's effort to resolving the latter).

 

It's not really the manufacturers fault for doing this - a big (and rather loud) chunk of the British public expects everything to be on sale for peanuts and complains that they are being 'ripped off' if products cost more than this. 

 

 

I hope the above doesn't sound like Hornby bashing, as it really isn't meant to be. But I think the business model of Realtrack/DCK is better (and yes I know they also build in China). From what I've seen, their units are totally faultless and they've spent a lot of time getting it right.

[Fenman]

We have had a poor reputation as a producer of quality stuff, whether it be a model locomotive, or a gas cooker. ...

That's too simplistic: eg, Rolls Royce aero engines are as good as any.

 

Paul

[The Stationmaster]

An interesting thing about model railways in Britain is that just over a  century ago, and for quite a lot of years prior to that, all the good quality mass produced model railway items of British outline were imported but often sold with British labelling on them.  It seems to have taken around 100 years to get from that situation through a developing and then an established British manufacturing situation back to one where everything r-t-r is imported.  the only difference is that now there are high quality British made kits available - which there weren't in Edwardian times.

[tomparryharry]

That's too simplistic: eg, Rolls Royce aero engines are as good as any.

 

Paul

 

Not simplistic at all.

 

Rolls Royce make top - end product. They make a small amount of kit, that is design specific, and competitively priced. In fact, Rolls probably makes my case. Where's your car made? Or, your Hi-Fi?

 

Ian

[stovepipe]

Where's your car made? Or, your Hi-Fi?

 

Ian

 

Sunderland and Essex........ but I take your point....

[Fenman]

Not simplistic at all.

 

Rolls Royce make top - end product. They make a small amount of kit, that is design specific, and competitively priced. In fact, Rolls probably makes my case. Where's your car made? Or, your Hi-Fi?

 

Ian

 

The fact that you think RR's family of aero engines is design specific suggests to me that you don't understand the design process they go through. Certainly they adapt their core family of designs for different models of aircraft. Which I guess is little different from the way European car manufacturers share engines across their different product ranges.

 

Where do I buy my hifi? Linn, designed and manufactured in Glasgow.

 

Car? Well, it's French, as it happens.

 

But I'm not sure of the relevance of those questions. Your original post said "We have had a poor reputation as a producer of quality stuff". That's clearly nonsense: some of the highest quality manufactured stuff is British made. And so is some of the cheapest, low-quality tat imaginable. The point is that we can make high quality stuff if we put our minds to it, and there are some British companies which do that. They tend to work in sectors where the marketplace is not stuffed full of people shouting that they want the cheapest possible price.

 

Paul

[trevor7598]

Seeing the Sir Winston Churchill funeral train pack illustrated at the top of this page, and reading the comments about 

couplings etc.I noticed a real howler with Pullman car Perseus . The real Perseus is a 1951 type Golden Arrow car, not the

type of car Hornby are proposing to use. Maybe a re-think might be in order.Unless Hornby are going to produce the 1951

cars and have not told us yet !!.

[hammy]

Own car Belgium (focus) own van Germany (volkswagon T4) works van Southampton (ford transit) most electronics china boiler though made in belper Derbyshire (glowworm)

[Horsetan]

.... I ended up with a "choice" of just a single country: Uruguay (about which I'm not complaining - Uruguay is lovely).....

I'm sure Luis Suarez agrees....

[Coryton]

Looking at the last few posts perhaps I'm risking going off-topic by discussing the Hornby 2015 range here, but...

 

I'm curious about the term "BR Mk1 Parcels Coach" (which I think they have been using from the start of the new Mk 1 tooling).

 

This isn't a term I've come across before for what I'd call a full brake or BG, though perhaps it's not too inappropriate for the blue/grey one since it's branded "Express Parcels".

 

I think we reached consensus that they are correct to call a TSO a Tourist Second Open, but in this case are they using a (to put it politely) non-standard term?

[coachmann]

Looking at the last few posts perhaps I'm risking going off-topic by discussing the Hornby 2015 range here, but...

 

I'm curious about the term "BR Mk1 Parcels Coach" (which I think they have been using from the start of the new Mk 1 tooling).

 

This isn't a term I've come across before for what I'd call a full brake or BG, though perhaps it's not too inappropriate for the blue/grey one since it's branded "Express Parcels".

Parcels coach, parcels van, baggage van, Baggage Gangwayed, Full Brake............... I am pretty sure we all know what Hornby is referring to. My interest in particular is coaching stock but to be honest I never use the 'official' codes. 

[Ian Hargrave]

Off topic....but I couldn't resist this.Hi-Fi....Rega and Castle...made in UK which is where the best stuff in this line is made.

 

Car....VW....Germany ,yes ? Nein . Sud Afrika. But if we break things down into component parts,do we really know where anything is manufactured these days ? The Airbus conglomerate is an example of this.