Hornby 2015 Announcements now made

[petethemole]

If the earth is round, why do layout builders strive to get their baseboards level? Surely they should be slightly convex?

[hoovered]

Only if its a "roundy roundy "  

[davidw]

I'm surprised that Hornby have chosen not to extend their mk1 range further. There is demand for the BSO, FO and RB. Just a thought......

[The Stationmaster]

If you ask most people in this fair island of ours "what is the place you go to in order to board a train", the general consensus is "a train station".

 

Which those of us who know about railways and who may have even inadvertently swallowed a thesaurus, would refer to it as "rail(way) station".

 

It doesn't make it right because of common consensus. Common consensus would suggest Mc Donalds is the best restaurant in the world, but is that so?

 

On that basis I would respectfully point out that only a special charter- or the Scarborough Spa Express etc- should have coaches/carriages (there's another one!) named "tourist".

 

If you look in the 1957 Railwaymans rule book issued by BR (of which I have 2 copies) passenger carrying non-powered vehicles are most certainly named "trailer". Not tourist.

 

But as someone else has just pointed out this is a Hornby 2015 release thread and not one in which poor grammar should be corrected and right propar English like wot we duz.

Now I'm confused. As Ian has said the BR Rule Book was published in 1950 and remained the 1950 Rule Book (even after it was reprinted, with full amendments to date in 1961).  Apart from which it says nothing at all about the various types of coaching stock other than mentioning brake vehicles (which are 'brake vehicles).

[The Stationmaster]

I would respectfully suggest that the BR rule book is a more credible source of terminology than any third party spotter books.

 

Indeed the Rule Book is a very authoritative source (assuming one knows the context in which to read it and how to qualify it).  However as it says nothing about the various types of passenger coaching stock, let alone defining them in any way, it is absolutely and utterly useless as a source for such information.  If one quotes BR documents, or indeed any other 'authoritative source', I would suggest that it would be useful if they were correctly described, including the dates of changes and amendments, as such information might then be useful to others.

[Dunsignalling]

To Summarise (and, hopefully, untwist a few pairs of knickers)  :

 

T can mean either Tourist or Trailer depending on what generation of coach is being described, Viz:

 

BR Mk1 and Mk2 loco hauled stock, TSO means Tourist Second Open, denoting higher seating density than the outwardly similar SO. 

 

BR Mk3, Only HST coaches are referrred to as TS, TGS, TRUB etc. and it means Trailer. Loco hauled Mk3s of identical seating arrangements but differences in buffing gear etc have never been so designated. The oddity is that 'O' persists in use for loco hauled Mk3 and 4 stock despite there never having been any equivalents with compartments.

 

The adoption of T to mean trailer in HST coaches stems from the fact that HSTs are, in operational terms, DMus and serves to avoid confusion with equivalent loco hauled Mk3s. The two are incompatible in other ways than buffing/coupling, notably electrically. The T designation is also applied to Mk4 stock because, again, the mode of operation is akin to a multiple unit though only one end is powered.

 

However, loco hauled Mk3s used in Push-pull mode with DVTs later in their careers did not aquire the designation as they remained unaltered during such use and could revert to normal usage at any time.   

 

In DMu nomenclature, T has always meant trailer but the O was omitted as open accommodation was the norm for all but a very few DMu cars. It was used, however, for SR EMu trailers where substantial amounts of compartment accommodation persisted.

 

Hence, in the 1960s one could tell from the printed page that a TSO would be a loco hauled Tourist Second Open vehicle whereas an equivalent DMu car of whatever seating density was a  Trailer Second (TS). 

 

Hope this sets things straight.

 

John

 

Edit: See post 618.

[railroadbill]

Profuse apologies for returning to the subject of this thread…(sort of)...

 

… I have just noticed the Threadgold open wagon in  Hornby's 2015 list.  Isn't Threadgold the company that made thoroughgrip garterettes?

 

(Those for whom 'It's a Square World' is unknown territory may not understand the question)

I'm afraid that Threadgold's Thoroughgrip Garterettes  were an invention of the wonderful Beachcomber (J B Morton). It was a column that ran for years  in the Daily Express when that was a real newspaper starting pre war.  There was a TV version in about 1968 I think which involved Spike Milligan. If you can get hold of a book of J B Morton's pieces it's well worth while and very very funny. ihmo of course.

Morton also invented snibbo, a universal product that was "advertised" in a ludicrous way. Now that would be a good name on a Hornby wagon.

 

"It's a square world" by Spike's Goon Show collaborator (at least in the early ones) Michael Bentine was very surreal and a kind of early run up towards Monty Python etc.  I still remember the magic carpet gag.  Bentine's previous program was for kids and called Potty Time (as in behaving in a potty way) whereas Square World was for adults. 

 

All seen on a 14" black and white telly.

 

Bill.

 

ps a TSO is a tourist second open with 64 seats. If it had 48 or 56 seats it would be a second open (SO).

[dibber25]

To Summarise (and, hopefully, untwist a few pairs of knickers)  :

 

T can mean either Tourist or Trailer depending on what generation of coach is being described, Vis:

 

BR Mk1 and Mk2 loco hauled stock, TSO means Tourist Second Open, denoting higher seating density than the outwardly similar SO. 

 

BR Mk3, Only HST coaches are referrred to as TS, TGS, TRUB etc. and it means Trailer. Loco hauled Mk3s of identical seating arrangements but differences in buffing gear etc have never been so designated. The oddity is that 'O' persists in use for loco hauled Mk3 and 4 stock despite there never having been any equivalents with compartments.

 

The adoption of T to mean trailer in HST coaches stems from the fact that HSTs are, in operational terms, DMus and serves to avoid confusion with equivalent loco hauled Mk3s. The two are incompatible in other ways than buffing/coupling, notably electrically. The T designation is also applied to Mk4 stock because, again, the mode of operation is akin to a multiple unit though only one end is powered.

 

However, loco hauled Mk3s used in Push-pull mode with DVTs later in their careers did not aquire the designation as they remained unaltered during such use and could revert to normal usage at any time.   

 

In DMu nomenclature, T has always meant trailer but the O was omitted as open accommodation was the norm for all but a very few DMu cars. It was used, however, for SR EMu trailers where substantial amounts of compartment accommodation persisted.

 

Hence, in the 1960s one could tell from the printed page that a TSO would be a loco hauled Tourist Second Open vehicle whereas an equivalent DMu car of whatever seating density was a  Trailer Second (TS). 

 

Hope this sets things straight.

 

John

Hoo-bloomin'-ray! At last someone sets out chapter and verse. I think this is more or less what I said umpteen pages back. I'll not comment on the 'China v. English manufacturing debate or the old Lima v. modern Hornby/Bachmann stuff because it never ceases to amaze me how some folk re-interpret history to suit their own opinions. I thought it was we journalists who were supposed to never let the facts get in the way of a good story.

CHRIS LEIGH

[railroadbill]

Further to Threadgold on a 2015 Hornby wagon. I've now found "The Best of Beachcomber" by J B Morton, pub. Penguin (but mine is 1966 edition).

I know what I'm going to be reading over Christmas. Track one down!    Big White Carstairs probably wouldn't happen nowadays but Justice Cocklecarrot is stil a good poke at the judicary   and the tales of Charlie Suet are making me laugh just thinking of them.

Morton took over from D B Wyndham Lewis, who was the first Beachcomber, perhaps surprisingly.

 

The gag with the graffitti  coach which incorporates the names of some Hornby design staff according to Andy Y does show that Hornby can have quite a sense of humour (giraffe car etc) as they've shown with the music references on new 0-4-0 tanks, so maybe more old comedy show references for us to identify would go down well?  Keep up the good work!

 

Bill

[Budgie]

I would respectfully suggest that the BR rule book is a more credible source of terminology than any third party spotter books.

Parkin is not a third-party spotter book, it is a well-researched book produced by the Historical Model Railway Society.

 

I think you are an ... [That's enough of that -- ed.]

[Budgie]

It's just that the sun is expected to blow up in 5,000,000,000 and I'd like to not still be discussing this.

The sun is expected to blow up in 5 billion what? nanoseconds?

['CHARD]

The sun is expected to blow up in 5 billion what? nanoseconds?

 

Replies to this thread.

[Ozexpatriate]

The sun is expected to blow up in 5 billion what? nanoseconds?

5 billion* nanoseconds would be 5 seconds, so let's hope not. The red giant phase for the sun should occur around 7 or 8 billion years from now. It would start to transition into this phase about 5.4 billion years from now.

 

* Using the US billion (10⁹)

[DavidH]

Oh well, still time for another bath then. Someone pass the loofah

[Ozexpatriate]

Oh well, still time for another bath then. Someone pass the loofah

“Sorry, could I just ask you to run a bit more hot water for me?"

[wombatofludham]

I do wonder if the Hornby 2015 range announcement has been so underwhelming to many that it's encouraged this thread to wander around the car park of irrelevance like a wonky shopping trolley, such has been the level of off-topicness?   I mean, we've covered the meaning of the letter T and macro-economic and industrial policy in the UK since 1945, whatever next: the cultural significance of rock music to model railways?  Is China the new Milton Keynes?  Is the UK still a nation of shopkeepers since Hornby revisited their retail margins?  Can Tofu offer a more cost-effective medium for ready to run models?

 

It has been more interesting though than the main announcement.

[Ozexpatriate]

I do wonder if the Hornby 2015 range announcement has been so underwhelming to many that it's encouraged this thread to wander around the car park of irrelevance like a wonky shopping trolley, such has been the level of off-topicness?

Off-topic postings are part of the normal life-cycle of a thread with more than 600 posts and 42,000 views. Most of what is necessarily relevant has been said. At some point it will die down until some weeks or months it will be resuscitated with posts on the progress of some things announced here.

[Steve-e]

I do wonder if the Hornby 2015 range announcement has been so underwhelming to many that it's encouraged this thread to wander around the car park of irrelevance like a wonky shopping trolley, such has been the level of off-topicness?    Is the UK still a nation of shopkeepers since Hornby revisited their retail margins? 

 

 

 

That's an interesting one the answer is probably that it hasn't been for a few years now, I can however see the convenience store coming to the fore in the coming years rather than the Supermarket as more people choose to "buy for now" rather than do a full weeks shopping, these stores will be located closer to work zones or residential zones rather than city centres though.  

 

 

 

The current Supermarkets will be taken over by an Army of home shopping pickers (try shopping in ASDA or Tesco at 6am and you'll see what I mean) as those people who do want a larger shop will place the order online for conveinence rather than take time out to walk around a supermarket.

 

 

 

Further in the future town centres and cities will cease to exist as their use has gone you could live and work anywhere its only green belt legislation that’s holding things roughly in place now. Then we will become more block zoned (business, retail, leisure and residential) in regimental blocks rather than the Coronation Street view of Britain that we see with Factory,Garage, Corner shop, Roys Rolls, PUB, gym and Housing all on one street which is still the same format though with business, retail, leisure and residential still the same needs.

 

 

 

Another thing that has popped up recently which will take off is the Buy your stuff on Ebay etc.. and get it delivered to a local store Argos, corner shop etc.. rather than your home (that you wont be in cos you’re at work and miss the postman / Yodel man!!!) so get it delivered to Argos etc. where you can safely pick it up after work.

 

This drives people to the Argos store etc... so they are happy to do it.. I've done it twice now and bought something from Argos once while I was in there, so it does work for them.

 

This would also drive people into the smaller shops although I doubt model shops would like the idea of "Pick your Hattons parcel up here" so probably wont embrace it.

 

Although as per the Argos example above what if, it was - I've picked my Hattons parcel up and "oh I see you have some x,y,z on offer I'll take that while I'm here" or see you had the same loco, coach etc on offer for the same price then may think next time I'll come here instead.....  

 

All the above are because time is getting more relevant to people, they want instant answers via phones, tablets, interweb, they want to spend less time doing the mundane things shopping, cleaning, washing. They want more time to enjoy life and hopefully enjoy MODELLING???

 

 

 

So back on topic with modelling, 2015 will be a significant year for Hornby online you can see now how they are going, they are starting to embrace the web and probably, at the moment have the best website out of the UK model railway producers, if they can drive traffic there then they gain, do the smaller shops gain no, but business is business and to survive Hornby have to adapt themselves.

 

 

 

The only saving grace for the smaller retailers is that I would guess (its only a guess) is that the average age of the railway modeller is going up each year and the majority are of a generation not into computers or the interweb so not connected and will visit their local model shop.

 

This can be seen by what the Pendolino Kickstarter people are saying they have spoken to people at exhibitions who are not aware of RWweb or kickstarter or the project online. Its hard not to be "connected" and not be aware, I don’t model N gauge but am aware through various online forums. So again I'm only guessing, that those who were spoken to were of the older generation and not into these new fangled computer things...

 

 

 

So at the moment yes there is a place for small retailers for a few years yet until the age/connected issue is sorted but they also need to start looking now to adapt for the future. So in the current market this is the balance Hornby need to look at, balancing retail with direct sales, perhaps they have and feel there is sufficient modellers online or the time is right to press the button to swing more to the direct sales to ensure their own survival in the future I don’t know, I'm not the CEO of Hornby.

 

 

 

But if in 2015 Hornby can address the supply issues then I do see 2015 as been the year they kickstart their online presence, unfortunate for the "shop keeper" but is the current way of the world.

 

 

 

Steve

[olivegreen]

Further to Threadgold on a 2015 Hornby wagon. I've now found "The Best of Beachcomber" by J B Morton, pub. Penguin (but mine is 1966 edition).

I know what I'm going to be reading over Christmas. Track one down!    Big White Carstairs probably wouldn't happen nowadays but Justice Cocklecarrot is stil a good poke at the judicary   and the tales of Charlie Suet are making me laugh just thinking of them.

Morton took over from D B Wyndham Lewis, who was the first Beachcomber, perhaps surprisingly.

 

The gag with the graffitti  coach which incorporates the names of some Hornby design staff according to Andy Y does show that Hornby can have quite a sense of humour (giraffe car etc) as they've shown with the music references on new 0-4-0 tanks, so maybe more old comedy show references for us to identify would go down well?  Keep up the good work!

 

Bill

Many thanks.  I must be getting old, mixing up Beachcomber and Bentine…but you understood what I was getting at!  I'll also be bringing out Morton's book to re-read over the next few days.  It is so long since I last read it, I can't remember if he has any detail on his brake levers in it.

(Note the sad attempt to return somewhat closer to the subject of the thread…)

[Coryton]

To Summarise (and, hopefully, untwist a few pairs of knickers)  :

 

T can mean either Tourist or Trailer depending on what generation of coach is being described, Vis:

 

BR Mk1 and Mk2 loco hauled stock, TSO means Tourist Second Open, denoting higher seating density than the outwardly similar SO. 

 

BR Mk3, Only HST coaches are referrred to as TS, TGS, TRUB etc. and it means Trailer. Loco hauled Mk3s of identical seating arrangements but differences in buffing gear etc have never been so designated. The oddity is that 'O' persists in use for loco hauled Mk3 and 4 stock despite there never having been any equivalents with compartments.

 

The adoption of T to mean trailer in HST coaches stems from the fact that HSTs are, in operational terms, DMus and serves to avoid confusion with equivalent loco hauled Mk3s. The two are incompatible in other ways than buffing/coupling, notably electrically. The T designation is also applied to Mk4 stock because, again, the mode of operation is akin to a multiple unit though only one end is powered.

 

However, loco hauled Mk3s used in Push-pull mode with DVTs later in their careers did not aquire the designation as they remained unaltered during such use and could revert to normal usage at any time.   

 

In DMu nomenclature, T has always meant trailer but the O was omitted as open accommodation was the norm for all but a very few DMu cars. It was used, however, for SR EMu trailers where substantial amounts of compartment accommodation persisted.

 

Hence, in the 1960s one could tell from the printed page that a TSO would be a loco hauled Tourist Second Open vehicle whereas an equivalent DMu car of whatever seating density was a  Trailer Second (TS). 

 

Hope this sets things straight.

 

John

 

I told myself I would leave this alone, but...

 

Are you sure about the "T" for Mk4 coaches being trailer?

 

I thought the Mk4 coach types were something like FO, RSB, TSOD, TSO and TSOE (which could be easily verified by someone living closer to the ECML than I).

 

We can argue over what the "T" stands for, but if it was trailer, would we not have TFO, TRSB etc? It seems more likely to me that (just like retaining the "O" for open when there are no Mk 4 compartment coaches) it's another hangover from older times.

 

Of course the T in DVT is trailer. But carriage codes have never been terribly consistent.

 

(Hornby do have Mk4s in their 2015 range so this is very slightly on topic).

[ThaneofFife]

That's an interesting one the answer is probably that it hasn't been for a few years now, I can however see the convenience store coming to the fore in the coming years rather than the Supermarket as more people choose to "buy for now" rather than do a full weeks shopping, these stores will be located closer to work zones or residential zones rather than city centres though.  

 

 

 

The current Supermarkets will be taken over by an Army of home shopping pickers (try shopping in ASDA or Tesco at 6am and you'll see what I mean) as those people who do want a larger shop will place the order online for conveinence rather than take time out to walk around a supermarket.

 

 

 

Further in the future town centres and cities will cease to exist as their use has gone you could live and work anywhere its only green belt legislation that’s holding things roughly in place now. Then we will become more block zoned (business, retail, leisure and residential) in regimental blocks rather than the Coronation Street view of Britain that we see with Factory,Garage, Corner shop, Roys Rolls, PUB, gym and Housing all on one street which is still the same format though with business, retail, leisure and residential still the same needs.

 

 

 

Another thing that has popped up recently which will take off is the Buy your stuff on Ebay etc.. and get it delivered to a local store Argos, corner shop etc.. rather than your home (that you wont be in cos you’re at work and miss the postman / Yodel man!!!) so get it delivered to Argos etc. where you can safely pick it up after work.

 

This drives people to the Argos store etc... so they are happy to do it.. I've done it twice now and bought something from Argos once while I was in there, so it does work for them.

 

This would also drive people into the smaller shops although I doubt model shops would like the idea of "Pick your Hattons parcel up here" so probably wont embrace it.

 

Although as per the Argos example above what if, it was - I've picked my Hattons parcel up and "oh I see you have some x,y,z on offer I'll take that while I'm here" or see you had the same loco, coach etc on offer for the same price then may think next time I'll come here instead.....  

 

All the above are because time is getting more relevant to people, they want instant answers via phones, tablets, interweb, they want to spend less time doing the mundane things shopping, cleaning, washing. They want more time to enjoy life and hopefully enjoy MODELLING???

 

 

 

So back on topic with modelling, 2015 will be a significant year for Hornby online you can see now how they are going, they are starting to embrace the web and probably, at the moment have the best website out of the UK model railway producers, if they can drive traffic there then they gain, do the smaller shops gain no, but business is business and to survive Hornby have to adapt themselves.

 

 

 

The only saving grace for the smaller retailers is that I would guess (its only a guess) is that the average age of the railway modeller is going up each year and the majority are of a generation not into computers or the interweb so not connected and will visit their local model shop.

 

This can be seen by what the Pendolino Kickstarter people are saying they have spoken to people at exhibitions who are not aware of RWweb or kickstarter or the project online. Its hard not to be "connected" and not be aware, I don’t model N gauge but am aware through various online forums. So again I'm only guessing, that those who were spoken to were of the older generation and not into these new fangled computer things...

 

 

 

So at the moment yes there is a place for small retailers for a few years yet until the age/connected issue is sorted but they also need to start looking now to adapt for the future. So in the current market this is the balance Hornby need to look at, balancing retail with direct sales, perhaps they have and feel there is sufficient modellers online or the time is right to press the button to swing more to the direct sales to ensure their own survival in the future I don’t know, I'm not the CEO of Hornby.

 

 

 

But if in 2015 Hornby can address the supply issues then I do see 2015 as been the year they kickstart their online presence, unfortunate for the "shop keeper" but is the current way of the world.

 

 

 

Steve

 cheers steve.  whats "Roys Rolls"?

[ThaneofFife]

You beat me to it.  I distinctly recall travelling in the 1980s on a Mk2 SO labelled as such on the end data panels which was definitely not powered, so a "trailer", whilst the next carriage was a Mk2 TSO, labelled as such.  If the T stood for "trailer" both would have been TSOs but they were not.  Like you say the only difference was the SO had 2+1 seating at second class pitch (i.e 8 bays) and the TSO had 64 seats in the more normal 2+2 layout.  The 48 seat SO was built to work with a kitchen car and an FO as a dining triplet, the 2+1 arrangement giving more elbow room to avoid you wearing your Brown Windsor soup.  Whenever I used the Birmingham-Norwich service I always did a quick check to see if there was an SO (or a demoted first...) in the rake so I could get a single seat and not have some vile prole, who thought they caught their train from a train station, sit next to me.

not that old chesnut again !   so before boarding did you not buy a train ticket or was it a railway ticket or is the correct parlance just ticket?   lol.    definitely a 1st world irritation that........

[Dave47549]

.

[Bernard Lamb]

I do wonder if the Hornby 2015 range announcement has been so underwhelming to many that it's encouraged this thread to wander around the car park of irrelevance like a wonky shopping trolley, such has been the level of off-topicness?   I mean, we've covered the meaning of the letter T and macro-economic and industrial policy in the UK since 1945, whatever next: the cultural significance of rock music to model railways?  Is China the new Milton Keynes?  Is the UK still a nation of shopkeepers since Hornby revisited their retail margins?  Can Tofu offer a more cost-effective medium for ready to run models?

 

It has been more interesting though than the main announcement.

I would have said that it was a pretty good announcement given the current situation.

Several old models get a new release. Black 5 has always been in demand, as has the A3 and the WC.

Plenty to mix and match from those for a spot of modelling.

An all areas of London shunting loco that got to many other places, with a common WB chassis for several other GN machines and some posh coaches can't be bad.

Quorn would be preferable to Tofu as it keeps it's shape better under typical UK conditions.

It would also be unpalatable to the concrete cows in Milton Keynes.

Final thought.

In Oxford they now have a Rail Station. At least that is how it is described on some of the busses.

A move to find the middle ground?

Bernard

[railroadbill]

While "train station" is an annoying modernism, because, correctly of course, a railway station is a station on a railway, it did always puzzle me that a bus started from a bus station...