G-BOAF Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 Kitchen car kitchen windows: prototype pics (at least from the 1960s and preservation) show these as being 2/3 windows (i.e. finishing at worktop/sink height). Hornby have them as full depth windows. Were they modified, or is this a slight error from Hornby? I'm toying with whether to start investing in K-types.... Prototype http://www.britishrailways.info/images/pullman21133.jpg Model http://rmweb.co.uk/photos/H_2015_conf/800wide/R4663%203%20-%20%20Pullman%20First%20Class%20Kitchen%20Car%20-%20K-Type%20Pullman%20Car.jpg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold teaky Posted April 18, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 18, 2017 (edited) Kitchen car kitchen windows: prototype pics (at least from the 1960s and preservation) show these as being 2/3 windows (i.e. finishing at worktop/sink height). Hornby have them as full depth windows. Were they modified, or is this a slight error from Hornby? I'm toying with whether to start investing in K-types.... Prototype http://www.britishrailways.info/images/pullman21133.jpg Model http://rmweb.co.uk/photos/H_2015_conf/800wide/R4663%203%20-%20%20Pullman%20First%20Class%20Kitchen%20Car%20-%20K-Type%20Pullman%20Car.jpg The windows were modified. Roughly speaking: the model image you have shown is a 1930's car and the prototype image is in the 1950s/60s guise. Here's an example: http://www.hornbyguide.com/item_details.asp?itemid=3107 Edited April 18, 2017 by teaky Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold teaky Posted April 18, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 18, 2017 Antony Ford's Pullman Profile books are good. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-BOAF Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 The windows were modified. Roughly speaking: the model image you have shown is a 1930's car and the prototype image is in the 1950s/60s guise. Here's an example: http://www.hornbyguide.com/item_details.asp?itemid=3107 your link is to a wood-bodied pullman with a 2/3 kitchen window I am referring to the all-steel pullmans. Even in 1960s condition, Hornby have them depicted with a full height kitchen window. This image is directly comparable to the prototype picture in era https://hattonsimages.blob.core.windows.net/products/R4696_3196972_Qty1_3.jpg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hilux5972 Posted April 19, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 19, 2017 As Teaky said, the Pullman Profile books are a great reference point, with number 5 due out in October this year. Book number 3 is the one you want. All Steel K Type cars. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold teaky Posted April 19, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 19, 2017 (edited) your link is to a wood-bodied pullman with a 2/3 kitchen window I am referring to the all-steel pullmans. Even in 1960s condition, Hornby have them depicted with a full height kitchen window. This image is directly comparable to the prototype picture in era https://hattonsimages.blob.core.windows.net/products/R4696_3196972_Qty1_3.jpg Apologies. In attempting to find an image to illustrate what I was trying to say, I inadvertantly selected a K-type. However, in my defence, it wasn't one with matchboard sides but one which had been plated over (ironically to make them look more like the all-steel K-types). Many kitchen cars had their interiors rearranged later in life and externally this showed in the kitchen window modification. I cannot find anything to say when this was done for Joan but there are photographs showing original and modified styles. Some other all-steel K-types (Belinda, Nylar, Phyllis and Thelma)had this modification done in 1947. There are photographs of sister cars of Joan showing the modified windows in 1962 and 1967. Although cannot find a clear statement of when Joan was modified it looks like she was reliveried around 1962 which suggests that you may be correct and that Hornby's 1960s livery should also have a modified window. As a contrast to this, the model of Loraine correctly has an unmodified window and earlier style crest, so that looks correct for the 1930s. If you are looking for an all-steel K-type kitchen car in 1960s livery then at the moment I'd say Hornby haven't made a correct one and you'd either have to modify the window or just accept the error. (I am aware of the danger of making this kind of statement though. Pullman information seems to be very patchy.) So I agree with your #202 post. What period and region are you modelling? It may still be possible to put together a correct rake from Hornby's offerings. Edited April 19, 2017 by teaky Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floreat Industria Posted July 16, 2017 Share Posted July 16, 2017 Antony Ford's Pullman Profile books are good.Yes. I've got them all and am looking forward to No. 5. Also, "Coupe News" etc. have an absolute wealth of information. See here for an index:- http://www.semgonline.com/coach/coupe/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
southernelectric Posted August 26, 2017 Share Posted August 26, 2017 (edited) I'm hoping someone with knowledge of these things can help clear up some confusion I have regarding these (and other) Hornby Pullmans. I bought the initial set of 5 x K-Type 1928 coaches released by Hornby a couple of years ago (R4660-R4664) and have just acquired the complete set of 5 x K-Type coaches released I believe last year (R4693-R4697) The 2015 batch have early crests, white roofs and the more ornate naming surrounds. However, I've noticed the more recent batch has the later crests, grey roofs and the more basic lining around the coach name. What era is this second batch representative of? The 1960s? When exactly did the Pullman crest style change? Also, I've acquired the set of Pullman cars released by Hornby this year (originally slated for release last year) that are matchboard-sided (R4738-R4742) but these have the earlier crest style. What era are these coaches representative of? I'm guessing the 1950s or 1960s? - depending on when the crest style changed. Hence the question above. Aside from the 2017 batch, all of the other Hornby matchboard-sided Pullmans I own (from 2003 onwards) have the earlier crests but with white roofs. Are these representative of 1930s Pullmans? Finally....the one thing that confuses me perhaps more than anything else! I see "Aluminium-sided", "Flush-sided" and "Steel-sided" used interchangeably to describe non-matchboard Hornby Pullmans. Is there a difference between them or are they indeed the same thing? And what's the difference between these and "All-Steel K-Type"? Sorry for all the questions, just cruous and trying to gain some knowledge Edited August 26, 2017 by southernelectric Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigger Posted August 26, 2017 Share Posted August 26, 2017 That later crest Pullmans steel sided were for use with the Metro Cammell MK1 pullmans introduced in 1961. There were no Mk1 Pullman brakes built. Some K type Kitchens and Parlours were also retained as spares,these also had the later creast Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
southernelectric Posted August 26, 2017 Share Posted August 26, 2017 That later crest Pullmans steel sided were for use with the Metro Cammell MK1 pullmans introduced in 1961. There were no Mk1 Pullman brakes built. Some K type Kitchens and Parlours were also retained as spares,these also had the later creast Thanks for the info! So am I right in saying ANY Pullman coaches with the later style crests are from 1961 onwards? Is that when the crest style changed, when the Mk1 Pullmans were introduced? I'm guessing the roofs were changed from white at some point? The newer matchboard-sided cars from Hornby have grey but all the others I have are white roofs! Still confused about Steel-sided/aluminium-sided/flush-sided - are they one and the same? And the difference between these and "All-Steel K-Type" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigger Posted August 26, 2017 Share Posted August 26, 2017 I believe so. I can only speak for the ECML pullman bit others existed at that time such as the Bournemouth Belle, I don't know if they had the later crest or we steel sided Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted August 26, 2017 Share Posted August 26, 2017 ...Still confused about Steel-sided/aluminium-sided/flush-sided - are they one and the same? And the difference between these and "All-Steel K-Type" Very simplified summary. The Pullman Car company's final design for UK service was the 'K' type vehicle. These replaced six wheel bogie cars, entering service post WWI. These had a steel underframe with wooden body construction in the distinctive 'matchboard' style for the bodyside panels below the window line. For the LNER's Queen of Scots service, a set of all steel construction K type Pullman cars were built, introduced to service 1928. These introduced a new technique to the UK's railways, being of monocoque construction: no underframe trusses to be seen as a result. The sides were flush plated, but the roof was of very obvious riveted seam construction. (These were generally only operated on the LNER, because only the LNER then possessed the puissant tractive power to haul such heavy vehicles.) Post WWII, the Pullman Car company had many of their matchboard side cars sheathed in aluminium sheet for a flush sided appearance. May be instantly differentiated from the all steel K type cars by having underframe trusses, and the smooth roof covering with no riveted seams. As with everything Pullman, it is a whole lot more complicated than that, but I am no expert. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
southernelectric Posted August 26, 2017 Share Posted August 26, 2017 Very simplified summary. The Pullman Car company's final design for UK service was the 'K' type vehicle. These replaced six wheel bogie cars, entering service post WWI. These had a steel underframe with wooden body construction in the distinctive 'matchboard' style for the bodyside panels below the window line. For the LNER's Queen of Scots service, a set of all steel construction K type Pullman cars were built, introduced to service 1928. These introduced a new technique to the UK's railways, being of monocoque construction: no underframe trusses to be seen as a result. The sides were flush plated, but the roof was of very obvious riveted seam construction. (These were generally only operated on the LNER, because only the LNER then possessed the puissant tractive power to haul such heavy vehicles.) Post WWII, the Pullman Car company had many of their matchboard side cars sheathed in aluminium sheet for a flush sided appearance. May be instantly differentiated from the all steel K type cars by having underframe trusses, and the smooth roof covering with no riveted seams. As with everything Pullman, it is a whole lot more complicated than that, but I am no expert. This is very useful information, thank you! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamysandy Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 The Queen of Scots passed where I lived in1953/4 so I saw it regularly.When I could cycle about 1959 onwards,I used to cycle over to see it pass on the down working about 7-30pm so I have more than a passing interest. As a result I now have all 3 train packs (r2365m,r2598m and r3402) as well as the r1024 train set which was what got me back into Hornby - my local area is shown as a map on the r1024 box! I've seen a photo of 60037 Hyperion hauling the up train at Craigentinny.The loco is in early B R blue but the leading brake end Pullman has a trussed underframe.This would be about 1950. Probably in place of a normal vehicle undergoing an overhaul 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Blue Streak Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 (edited) I see these are on special around various places (usual suspects) for 33 quid for early crest / white roof and 39 GBP for later crest / grey roof versions. Also I see the r3402 QOS train packs are on the way down in price, I just picked one up for 205 pound including post to Oz. I wasn't overly keen at the original RRP because I didn't really need another blue A4, I really just wanted the Pullmans but at the discounted price, I can live with it a little easier. Does anyone know where I can get my hands on some more QOS coach headboards similiar to those found in the train pack ? Edit - Correction, the train pack does not appear to contain coach QOS name boards as I thought, although they did appear on the original pictures from Hornby prior to actual release. (see picture below) Many thanks to Tom who steered Me in the right direction to obtain the Boards. Edited October 27, 2017 by The Blue Streak Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micklner Posted May 9, 2019 Share Posted May 9, 2019 On 25/10/2017 at 02:38, The Blue Streak said: I see these are on special around various places (usual suspects) for 33 quid for early crest / white roof and 39 GBP for later crest / grey roof versions. Also I see the r3402 QOS train packs are on the way down in price, I just picked one up for 205 pound including post to Oz. I wasn't overly keen at the original RRP because I didn't really need another blue A4, I really just wanted the Pullmans but at the discounted price, I can live with it a little easier. Does anyone know where I can get my hands on some more QOS coach headboards similiar to those found in the train pack ? Edit - Correction, the train pack does not appear to contain coach QOS name boards as I thought, although they did appear on the original pictures from Hornby prior to actual release. (see picture below) Many thanks to Tom who steered Me in the right direction to obtain the Boards. Bump on this. Just acquired the above set. Does anyone know of a source for the Coach Boards please ?. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hilux5972 Posted May 9, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 9, 2019 1 hour ago, micklner said: Bump on this. Just acquired the above set. Does anyone know of a source for the Coach Boards please ?. About halfway down this page https://www.sankeyscenics.co.uk/titled-trains-packs-n-to-r/4568461898 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micklner Posted May 10, 2019 Share Posted May 10, 2019 8 hours ago, Hilux5972 said: About halfway down this page https://www.sankeyscenics.co.uk/titled-trains-packs-n-to-r/4568461898 Sadly they are the BR version, does anyone know of a LNER era set please Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hilux5972 Posted May 10, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 10, 2019 (edited) Ask them. They may be able to create custom ones for you. Edited May 10, 2019 by Hilux5972 Spelling correction Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon4470 Posted May 10, 2019 Share Posted May 10, 2019 2 hours ago, micklner said: Sadly they are the BR version, does anyone know of a LNER era set please Hi Mick Fox Transfers list a set of Coach name boards for the QoS. They are listed as LNER era......so hopefully that is correct. Jon 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micklner Posted May 10, 2019 Share Posted May 10, 2019 Many thanks . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceptic Posted May 10, 2019 Share Posted May 10, 2019 7 hours ago, micklner said: Sadly they are the BR version, does anyone know of a LNER era set please Click on 'Pre-War Trains' , 1/3rd. down the 'Titled Trains Overview' page. (At the bottom of the 'Titled Trains, N-R' page. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottishsteam Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 Perhaps an odd question but does anyone have a spare box (or even just inner sleeve) for one of these coaches? Just acquired a second hand set of five, one of which Is missing the ice-block packaging. As I am collecting stock for a layout which is yet to be built I would like to know that the coaches are stored securely until I can run them! Happy to pay a reasonable amount or donate to a charity of your choice. If anyone can help please send me a private message. Thanks, Andrew Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
D9001 Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 9 hours ago, scottishsteam said: Perhaps an odd question but does anyone have a spare box (or even just inner sleeve) for one of these coaches? Just acquired a second hand set of five, one of which Is missing the ice-block packaging. As I am collecting stock for a layout which is yet to be built I would like to know that the coaches are stored securely until I can run them! Happy to pay a reasonable amount or donate to a charity of your choice. If anyone can help please send me a private message. Thanks, Andrew You mightvget one via eBay but some joker will probably try to charge you £30 for it! I wonder if any of them ever get sold. I Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green too Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 That's probably the price difference between 'BOXED' and 'unboxed' to a collector ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now