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Hornby announce 'K-type' 1928 Pullman Cars

Andy Y

By Andy Y,
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G-BOAF

G-BOAF

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Kitchen car kitchen windows: prototype pics (at least from the 1960s and preservation) show these as being 2/3 windows (i.e. finishing at worktop/sink height). Hornby have them as full depth windows. Were they modified, or is this a slight error from Hornby?

I'm toying with whether to start investing in K-types....

 

Prototype

http://www.britishrailways.info/images/pullman21133.jpg

 

Model

http://rmweb.co.uk/photos/H_2015_conf/800wide/R4663%203%20-%20%20Pullman%20First%20Class%20Kitchen%20Car%20-%20K-Type%20Pullman%20Car.jpg

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teaky

teaky

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Posted (edited)

Kitchen car kitchen windows: prototype pics (at least from the 1960s and preservation) show these as being 2/3 windows (i.e. finishing at worktop/sink height). Hornby have them as full depth windows. Were they modified, or is this a slight error from Hornby?

I'm toying with whether to start investing in K-types....

 

Prototype

http://www.britishrailways.info/images/pullman21133.jpg

 

Model

http://rmweb.co.uk/photos/H_2015_conf/800wide/R4663%203%20-%20%20Pullman%20First%20Class%20Kitchen%20Car%20-%20K-Type%20Pullman%20Car.jpg

The windows were modified.  Roughly speaking: the model image you have shown is a 1930's car and the prototype image is in the 1950s/60s guise.

 

Here's an example: http://www.hornbyguide.com/item_details.asp?itemid=3107

Edited by teaky
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G-BOAF

G-BOAF

Posted
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The windows were modified.  Roughly speaking: the model image you have shown is a 1930's car and the prototype image is in the 1950s/60s guise.

 

Here's an example: http://www.hornbyguide.com/item_details.asp?itemid=3107

your link is to a wood-bodied pullman with a 2/3 kitchen window

I am referring to the all-steel pullmans. Even in 1960s condition, Hornby have them depicted with a full height kitchen window.

This image is directly comparable to the prototype picture in era

 

https://hattonsimages.blob.core.windows.net/products/R4696_3196972_Qty1_3.jpg

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teaky

teaky

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your link is to a wood-bodied pullman with a 2/3 kitchen window

I am referring to the all-steel pullmans. Even in 1960s condition, Hornby have them depicted with a full height kitchen window.

This image is directly comparable to the prototype picture in era

 

https://hattonsimages.blob.core.windows.net/products/R4696_3196972_Qty1_3.jpg

Apologies.  In attempting to find an image to illustrate what I was trying to say, I inadvertantly selected a K-type.  However, in my defence, it wasn't one with matchboard sides but one which had been plated over (ironically to make them look more like the all-steel K-types).

 

Many kitchen cars had their interiors rearranged later in life and externally this showed in the kitchen window modification.  I cannot find anything to say when this was done for Joan but there are photographs showing original and modified styles.  Some other all-steel K-types (Belinda, Nylar, Phyllis and Thelma)had this modification done in 1947.  There are photographs of sister cars of Joan showing the modified windows in 1962 and 1967.  Although cannot find a clear statement of when Joan was modified it looks like she was reliveried around 1962 which suggests that you may be correct and that Hornby's 1960s livery should also have a modified window.

 

As a contrast to this, the model of Loraine correctly has an unmodified window and earlier style crest, so that looks correct for the 1930s.

 

If you are looking for an all-steel K-type kitchen car in 1960s livery then at the moment I'd say Hornby haven't made a correct one and you'd either have to modify the window or just accept the error.  (I am aware of the danger of making this kind of statement though.  Pullman information seems to be very patchy.)  So I agree with your #202 post.

 

What period and region are you modelling?  It may still be possible to put together a correct rake from Hornby's offerings.

Edited by teaky
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southernelectric

southernelectric

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Posted (edited)

I'm hoping someone with knowledge of these things can help clear up some confusion I have regarding these (and other) Hornby Pullmans.

 

I bought the initial set of 5 x K-Type 1928 coaches released by Hornby a couple of years ago (R4660-R4664) and have just acquired the complete set of 5 x K-Type coaches released I believe last year (R4693-R4697)

 

The 2015 batch have early crests, white roofs and the more ornate naming surrounds. However, I've noticed the more recent batch has the later crests, grey roofs and the more basic lining around the coach name.

 

What era is this second batch representative of? The 1960s?

 

When exactly did the Pullman crest style change?

 

Also, I've acquired the set of Pullman cars released by Hornby this year (originally slated for release last year) that are matchboard-sided (R4738-R4742) but these have the earlier crest style. What era are these coaches representative of? I'm guessing the 1950s or 1960s? - depending on when the crest style changed. Hence the question above.

 

Aside from the 2017 batch, all of the other Hornby matchboard-sided Pullmans I own (from 2003 onwards) have the earlier crests but with white roofs. Are these representative of 1930s Pullmans?

 

Finally....the one thing that confuses me perhaps more than anything else! I see "Aluminium-sided", "Flush-sided" and "Steel-sided" used interchangeably to describe non-matchboard Hornby Pullmans. Is there a difference between them or are they indeed the same thing?

 

And what's the difference between these and "All-Steel K-Type"?

 

Sorry for all the questions, just cruous and trying to gain some knowledge :)

Edited by southernelectric
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Tigger

Tigger

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That later crest Pullmans steel sided were for use with the Metro Cammell MK1 pullmans introduced in 1961. There were no Mk1 Pullman brakes built. Some K type Kitchens and Parlours were also retained as spares,these also had the later creast

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southernelectric

southernelectric

Posted
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That later crest Pullmans steel sided were for use with the Metro Cammell MK1 pullmans introduced in 1961. There were no Mk1 Pullman brakes built. Some K type Kitchens and Parlours were also retained as spares,these also had the later creast

 

Thanks for the info!

 

So am I right in saying ANY Pullman coaches with the later style crests are from 1961 onwards? Is that when the crest style changed, when the Mk1 Pullmans were introduced?

 

I'm guessing the roofs were changed from white at some point? The newer matchboard-sided cars from Hornby have grey but all the others I have are white roofs!

 

Still confused about Steel-sided/aluminium-sided/flush-sided - are they one and the same? And the difference between these and "All-Steel K-Type"

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34theletterbetweenB&D

34theletterbetweenB&D

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...Still confused about Steel-sided/aluminium-sided/flush-sided - are they one and the same? And the difference between these and "All-Steel K-Type"

Very simplified summary.

 

The Pullman Car company's final design for UK service was the 'K' type vehicle. These replaced  six wheel bogie cars, entering service post WWI. These had a steel underframe with wooden body construction in the distinctive 'matchboard' style for the bodyside panels below the window line.

 

For the LNER's Queen of Scots service, a set of all steel construction K type Pullman cars were built, introduced to service 1928. These introduced a new technique to the UK's railways, being of monocoque construction: no underframe trusses to be seen as a result. The sides were flush plated, but the roof was of very obvious riveted seam construction. (These were generally only operated on the LNER, because only the LNER then possessed the puissant tractive power to haul such heavy vehicles.)

 

Post WWII, the Pullman Car company had many of their matchboard side cars sheathed in aluminium sheet for a flush sided appearance. May be instantly differentiated from the all steel K type cars by having underframe trusses, and the smooth roof covering with no riveted seams.

 

As with everything Pullman, it is a whole lot more complicated than that, but I am no expert.

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southernelectric

southernelectric

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Very simplified summary.

 

The Pullman Car company's final design for UK service was the 'K' type vehicle. These replaced  six wheel bogie cars, entering service post WWI. These had a steel underframe with wooden body construction in the distinctive 'matchboard' style for the bodyside panels below the window line.

 

For the LNER's Queen of Scots service, a set of all steel construction K type Pullman cars were built, introduced to service 1928. These introduced a new technique to the UK's railways, being of monocoque construction: no underframe trusses to be seen as a result. The sides were flush plated, but the roof was of very obvious riveted seam construction. (These were generally only operated on the LNER, because only the LNER then possessed the puissant tractive power to haul such heavy vehicles.)

 

Post WWII, the Pullman Car company had many of their matchboard side cars sheathed in aluminium sheet for a flush sided appearance. May be instantly differentiated from the all steel K type cars by having underframe trusses, and the smooth roof covering with no riveted seams.

 

As with everything Pullman, it is a whole lot more complicated than that, but I am no expert.

 

This is very useful information, thank you!

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Steamysandy

Steamysandy

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The Queen of Scots passed where I lived in1953/4 so I saw it regularly.When I could cycle about 1959 onwards,I used to cycle over to see it pass on the down working about 7-30pm so I have more than a passing interest.

As a result I now have all 3 train packs (r2365m,r2598m and r3402) as well as the r1024 train set which was what got me back into Hornby - my local area is shown as a map on the r1024 box!

I've seen a photo of 60037 Hyperion hauling the up train at Craigentinny.The loco is in early B R blue but the leading brake end Pullman has a trussed underframe.This would be about 1950.

Probably in place of a normal vehicle undergoing an overhaul

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The Blue Streak

The Blue Streak

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I see these are on special around various places (usual suspects) for 33 quid for early crest / white roof and 39 GBP for later crest / grey roof versions. 

 

Also I see the r3402 QOS train packs are on the way down in price, I just picked one up for 205 pound including post to Oz. I wasn't overly keen at the original RRP because I didn't really need another blue A4, I really just wanted the Pullmans but at the discounted price, I can live with it a little easier.

 

Does anyone know where I can get my hands on some more QOS coach headboards similiar to those found in the train pack  ?

 

Edit - Correction, the train pack does not appear to contain coach QOS name boards as I thought, although they did appear on the original pictures from Hornby prior to actual release. (see picture below)

Many thanks to Tom who steered Me in the right direction to obtain the Boards.

 

post-23233-0-66084900-1509083857.jpg

Edited by The Blue Streak
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micklner

micklner

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On 25/10/2017 at 02:38, The Blue Streak said:

I see these are on special around various places (usual suspects) for 33 quid for early crest / white roof and 39 GBP for later crest / grey roof versions. 

 

Also I see the r3402 QOS train packs are on the way down in price, I just picked one up for 205 pound including post to Oz. I wasn't overly keen at the original RRP because I didn't really need another blue A4, I really just wanted the Pullmans but at the discounted price, I can live with it a little easier.

 

Does anyone know where I can get my hands on some more QOS coach headboards similiar to those found in the train pack  ?

 

Edit - Correction, the train pack does not appear to contain coach QOS name boards as I thought, although they did appear on the original pictures from Hornby prior to actual release. (see picture below)

Many thanks to Tom who steered Me in the right direction to obtain the Boards.

 

post-23233-0-66084900-1509083857.jpg

Bump on this.

Just acquired the above set. Does anyone know of a source for the Coach Boards please ?.

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Jon4470

Jon4470

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2 hours ago, micklner said:

Sadly they are the BR version, does anyone know of a LNER era set please

Hi Mick

 

Fox Transfers list a set of Coach name boards for the QoS. They are listed as LNER era......so hopefully that is correct.

 

Jon

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Ceptic

Ceptic

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7 hours ago, micklner said:

Sadly they are the BR version, does anyone know of a LNER era set please

Click on 'Pre-War Trains' , 1/3rd. down the 'Titled Trains Overview' page. (At the bottom of the 'Titled Trains, N-R' page.

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scottishsteam

scottishsteam

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Perhaps an odd question but does anyone have a spare box (or even just inner sleeve) for one of these coaches? Just acquired a second hand set of five, one of which Is missing the ice-block packaging. As I am collecting stock for a layout which is yet to be built I would like to know that the coaches are stored securely until I can run them! 
 

Happy to pay a reasonable amount or donate to a charity of your choice. If anyone can help please send me a private message. 
 

Thanks,

Andrew 

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D9001

D9001

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9 hours ago, scottishsteam said:

Perhaps an odd question but does anyone have a spare box (or even just inner sleeve) for one of these coaches? Just acquired a second hand set of five, one of which Is missing the ice-block packaging. As I am collecting stock for a layout which is yet to be built I would like to know that the coaches are stored securely until I can run them! 
 

Happy to pay a reasonable amount or donate to a charity of your choice. If anyone can help please send me a private message. 
 

Thanks,

Andrew 

 

You mightvget one via eBay but some joker will probably try to charge you £30 for it! I wonder if any of them ever get sold. I 

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