Southern Maunsell Coaching Stock discussion

[Oldddudders]

Parcel and Goods traffics were quite separate, with separate and differentiated rates. Parcels traffic was up to a certain size only, because most stations lacked mechanical handling equipment, and would typically be despatched on the first available train. Goods traffic by definition went via a goods depot, where it would be loaded to a wagon according to traffic type. Both services would usually offer delivery to an address, but, particularly in the case of parcels traffic, TCF (To be Called For) was a cheaper option, where the customer collected from the destination station. Perishable and livestock traffics were often TCF, as the customer did not want the yoghurt, or day-old chicks, sitting around anywhere for a moment too long!

 

Coming somewhere between the two was the parcels train - usually a long string of passenger-rated vans, although on Southern an EMU might be used - which might be the choice for traffic from market garden or mail-order customers who regularly provided large numbers of consignments, as well as dealing with heavy regular parcels flows between major centres. In my era the 06.39 Blisworth to Redhill and 11.35 Chichester to Bricklayers Arms come to mind

[ColHut]

Thank you for your research.

Do you have any idea what is the shortest formation that had the high window 4comp. Brake which might include, loose or otherwise, the BCK and TK?

 

Is Hornby's allocation of the High Window 4 comp. BK to set 209 in error then?

 

Regards

[Dunsignalling]

Thank you for your research.

Do you have any idea what is the shortest formation that had the high window 4comp. Brake which might include, loose or otherwise, the BCK and TK?

 

Is Hornby's allocation of the High Window 4 comp. BK to set 209 in error then?

 

Regards

Much depends on the period you are modelling as sets did get reformed over time. In BR days many of the sets with HW 4-compt. BTKs in them had been expanded to 8 vehicles (not all of which have been produced by Hornby) and were mainly used on inter-regional services. 

 

When it first entered traffic, Set 209 consisted of four coaches, the two 4-compt. BTKs as produced by Hornby, plus FK 7411 and TK 1127. So, no, Hornby aren't wrong but you do need both brake vehicles to make a correct set (it's not clear from your post if you already do). It is a general rule of SR carriage working that any set of 3 or more coaches will have a pair of similar brake vehicles at the ends.

 

The BCK is the (slightly) tricky one from your point of view as they were only ran as loose stock or incorporated in 2-sets with 6-compt. BTKs.

 

You already have a TK so it seems you need an FK to complete Set 209 (assuming you have both BTKs); your BCK can legitimately be tacked on the end as a strengthener or a through coach. If you want a longer train, add a 6-compt. BTK to the BCK and you can have two sets coupled - some SR services included an inordinate number of brake vehicles, hence their usual preference for the ones with short van sections. 

 

Hope this helps.

 

John

Edited September 6, 2016 by Dunsignalling

[ColHut]

Superb! Thanks, I look forward now to building a longer rake, which will still be quite short. My layout Is really LNER but others may pass on their way to the south coast. .

 

That just made my day.

 

Regards.

[ColHut]

dear All,

 

Out of curiosity, what did the luggage and guard sections of the 4 compartment brakes look like?. were they separated by a wall or all one big space with two sets of doors?

 

regards

[2ManySpams]

This gives a glimpse: https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTuq7DqzMZvK9C_tUl8pWV0yuo3Sw-Ms9IX8M5lvX7RP4TsK5rG

 

The interior plans are also shown on the drawings in Mike King's books.

[2ManySpams]

Just dug out Mike King's book, which is well worth seeking out if you're interested in Southern coaches:

 

 

It appears to show the luggage / guard's compartment as a single long space.

 

 

This is confirmed by the drawing in David Gould's book which shows it as a single 29' 2.75" long space.

[ColHut]

Thankyou very much. It makes sense too I suppose as dedicating space to luggage if there is not actually much around is a bit silly. A nominal allocation but a single big compartment is more flexible.

 

regards

[talisman56]

 

The records suggest that 3668 and 3669 weren't allocated to sets between June 1957 and June 1958. It is possible that they were just stored somewhere but my suspicion is that they were actually working in a set but that the paperwork failed to record that fact. (I suspect that if they had really been out of use for twelve months, either they, or another pair of 4-compt.brakes in worse state, would have been condemned.)

 

Gould states in his text that 3668/69 were formed in set 341 in 1958, but doesn't mention when their previous set, 427 was disbanded. In the Disposition list later in the book, 3668/69 are reported as going straight from 427 to 341 in June 1957. Hence it is on my 'anomalies' list which I will attempt to resolve from alternative sources later.

 

'Loose' 4-cpt Brake Thirds 4095-97 were delivered as part of the several batches of gangway adaptor fitted (for use with earlier SR stock and other companies' vehicles) early high-window coaches for inter-company services, which indicates that they were strengthening vehicles.

Edited October 6, 2016 by talisman56

[Mallard60022]

I see no mention of catering vehicles - yet - I am currently hacking a Dapol corridor first into a Restaurant car (diag 2651) working from Mike Kings Illustrated History. I'm modelling mid 1930s,  photos are somewhat thin on the ground; can any one tell me if there was any lettering on the doors, the only photo in King  would appear to have nothing on the doors - not even lining. Elsewhere a picture of an Ironclad from around my period of interest  shows a door lettered "Pantry"; what, if anything, would be on the recessed double doors my guess would be either Kitchen or Pantry (or both?) Would the single recessed door at the end be lettered First?

 

Next project to follow will be 3rd open(s) depends on the availability of Dapol coaches at a bit below most Ebay prices, (best so far has been £16.99)

 

I'll be printing overlays on OHP transparencies, cutting umpteen holes for windows in vinyl or paper is a PITA with 82 year old fingers and eyesight!

Were you using Bill Bedford sides for your conversion (apologies for late question but only just seen this post)?

Phil

[Dorsetmike]

Were you using Bill Bedford sides for your conversion (apologies for late question but only just seen this post)?

Phil

(my apologies also for late reply, I don't visit this site every day)

No, I made my own, initially printed on A4 labels, intention being to have vinyl ones produced. I scaled down 4mm drawings copied the colour of Dapol Maunsells and did the lining and lettering in  photo editing software. I've not yet done any transparency printings.

 

The open thirds work better than the restaurants, those recessed double doors on the restaurant make overlays a bit awkward, the end recessed doors of the open thirds are better

[Strathwood]

Now I could be stepping on a land mine here, but can any of you coaching stock sages suggest a suitable combination that might be believable from ready to run 4mm stock as either 2 or 3 coach sets on a Southern Region branch-cross country backwater? It would be assumed that the line was possibly LBSC or SECR built served from the Guildford direction in the west, and Tunbridge Wells, East Grinstead in the other direction, to be modelled in the 1950s and early 1960s. Yes I already have to hand a Hornby Push Pull set and a Kernow 2 car DMU. Preference is for green stock not the horrid Blood & Custard stock, but crimson stock is okay on the eyes of this beholder anyway.

 

Any ideas from what has been released please or what is suspected to be on its way? Which Hornby Maunsells to make a plausible 3 car set, perhaps BR Mark 1s even as well, Hornby's LSWR coaches look great too, what about Bachmann's Birdcage sets, or play a wild card and go for one of Kernow's Gate Stock sets?

 

Be gentle my knowlege is limited in this direction after reading through the many previous posts, some of you are pretty savvy on your coaching stock and might like to help, I am sure I am not alone in planning something for Hornby's H Class.

 

Kevin

 

 

[talisman56]

A Birdcage set would do nicely, especially for the 50s - not an expert on those but I have listed sets 529-535 as being potential survivors into BR days. Maunsells are a bit difficult as the sets that would run in the area you specified would more than likely be Restriction 1 (8' 6" width) sets, but if you can work with a Western Section Local set 'on vacation'  then a BTK-CK-BTK set would suffice, sets 241-250 and 327-330 being prime examples. Bulleids would have appeared at the turn of the decade as the older stock was phased out, and again BSK-CK-BSK sets were the more usual fare.

[sej]

Hi, I'm having difficulty understanding which of Hornby's coaches are which from their catalogue numbers. For example R 4124B is a brake coach but which or what? Do you have a handy guide to make things a little clearer?

 

Cheers

Simon

[Oldddudders]

R4124 is not a true Maunsell coach, but a previous generation generic model. Fine as a coach, but not an accurate model. The true Maunsells, widely regarded as first rate, start at about R4290 or thereabouts, I think, and available in 4 liveries. My cribsheet is sadly at home in France while I am in Torbay.

[sej]

Ah thanks Ian, shows the value of more research before ebaying! I'll try for some better ones before spending any more cash...

 

Cheers

Simon

[N15class]

Hi Chris

 

Just read through this its a nice bit of work. I unfortunately struggle with all the references to RTR coaches these mean absolutely nothing to me. The links to other sites with sets and there numbers is top draw, just what I need to find sets and stock for myself.

 

Just need to get some more 1930's info away from Maunsells back to Ironclads and LSWR panel stock. no doubt very similar knowing LSWR and SR practice.

Thanks for what you have done here.

[2ManySpams]

Hi Chris

 

Just read through this its a nice bit of work. I unfortunately struggle with all the references to RTR coaches these mean absolutely nothing to me. The links to other sites with sets and there numbers is top draw, just what I need to find sets and stock for myself.

 

Just need to get some more 1930's info away from Maunsells back to Ironclads and LSWR panel stock. no doubt very similar knowing LSWR and SR practice.

Thanks for what you have done here.

Thanks Peter, must finish it off sometime!

[SRman]

Hi Chris

 

Just read through this its a nice bit of work. I unfortunately struggle with all the references to RTR coaches these mean absolutely nothing to me. The links to other sites with sets and there numbers is top draw, just what I need to find sets and stock for myself.

 

Just need to get some more 1930's info away from Maunsells back to Ironclads and LSWR panel stock. no doubt very similar knowing LSWR and SR practice.

Thanks for what you have done here.

 

The Mike King book referred to in post 138 also deals with the Ironclads. This book is a mine of information and well worth having in your library if you can get hold of it.

[N15class]

The Mike King book referred to in post 138 also deals with the Ironclads. This book is a mine of information and well worth having in your library if you can get hold of it.

I do have this and the Gould Maunsell book. Must reread and inwardly digest.

[darren chpamn]

Thanks Chris,

I am looking to use the Hornby Maunsell p set 199 in a 1954/55ish era. I have made up set 27 in c&c but was looking to see whether set 199 was always in Green to use it realistically alongside my c&c set 27. I'm assuming then that set 199 may have gone straight from malachite to BR Green, or was it a set that was kept in revarnished malachite? I have also not been able to find a photo of set 199 in c&c in my limited book & DVD collection.

Regards

Lee

 

I know this is a big of old posting however I'm interested in set 25 being that I was a mix livery set do you know which coach was green and which one was c&c?

Daz

[2ManySpams]

I know this is a big of old posting however I'm interested in set 25 being that I was a mix livery set do you know which coach was green and which one was c&c?

Daz

 

It is likely this can be deduced from a photograph of the set...just need to find the photo again!

[darren chpamn]

Thanks Chris

[Dorsetmike]

With the N gauge 4 compartment brake 3rds and some sets from the 39x series coming through from Dapol, it still leaves the restaurant car and open 3rds, plus for BR period the driving brake compo. It would appear that Dapol are unlikely to do them as "they are not economically viable" i.e they wouldn't sell in sufficient numbers as they (particularly the restaurant car) would normally only appear as one vehicle per train and not even in every train.

 

This leaves many of us without  the ability to make up convincing rakes for some of our trains.

 

I have tried a bit of hacking but the recessed doors are a bit of a stumbling block, so my thoughts now turn to 3D printing, to this end I have started a "conversation" on Shapeways asking if there is any likeliihood of them appearing in 3D print, maybe a few supporting posts to said conversation might improve the chances.

 

https://www.shapeways.com/forum/conversations/n-gauge-maunsell-open-3rd-coach-and-restaurant-car.495879/

Edited June 24, 2018 by Dorsetmike

[talisman56]

 

With the N gauge 4 compartment brake 3rds and some sets from the 39x series coming through from Dapol, it still leaves the restaurant car and open 3rds, plus for BR period the driving brake compo. It would appear that Dapol are unlikely to do them as "they are not economically viable" i.e they wouldn't sell in sufficient numbers as they (particularly the restaurant car) would normally only appear as one vehicle per train and not even in every train.

 

This leaves many of us without  the ability to make up convincing rakes for some of our trains.

 

I have tried a bit of hacking but the recessed doors are a bit of a stumbling block, so my thoughts now turn to 3D printing, to this end I have started a "conversation" on Shapeways asking if there is any likeliihood of them appearing in 3D print, maybe a few supporting posts to said conversation might improve the chances.

 

https://www.shapeways.com/forum/conversations/n-gauge-maunsell-open-3rd-coach-and-restaurant-car.495879/

 

 

Mike, when I go to Shapeways it tells me the conversation does not exist...