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Southern Maunsell Coaching Stock discussion


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I get the impression that railways then were less focussed on asset-sweating than we are used to today. So some sets sat around until needed for high-summer services. But sets were sets, tended to be together even when one vehicle needed attention, and were seldom reduced in size on a temporary basis. OTOH they might well be augmented in season, with catering cars or Pullmans.

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The only formal and regular variation to sets of which I am aware, concerned a number of Western Section Bulleid 3-sets (BSK+CK+BSK, sets 830-837) that were strengthened with the addition of two SK vehicles for the summer, commencing (IIRC) in June each year.

 

Even this limited practice ceased after a while, with sets 834-837 becoming permanent 5-sets in 1953 and sets 830-833 in 1959. 

 

John

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16 hours ago, AVS1998 said:

Good evening all, 

 

I was just curious as to whether anyone knew how heavily the coaching stock compositions would be altered during the winter, specifically in Kent 1920-30? Were sets shortened or was it just a timetable change? 

 

I'm just thinking, if I could reasonably omit a coach or two from various sets it would both look proportionate and be prototypical, but alas, I can't really find much information on this anywhere.  It would seem sensible in winter to remove vehicles from a set for servicing, as well as having fewer patrons to seat anyway. This would be for sets such as the Continentals, the Hastings Maunsell sets (although these, I imagine may run as-is given how short the sets were) and possibly Thanets/Kent Coast Maunsells of the early 1920s.

 

Thank you for your time, 

 

Alex 

Morning Alex. Your reference could be the Book, Maunsell's SR Steam carriage Stock by David Gould. Chapter 3 covers 1924/5Eastern Section Corridor Stock; Chapter 4, early 59' Stock and then Chapter 5  59' Corridor Stock, 1929 to 1934. I am feeling carp at this moment so not interested in digging through that lot but if you have a specific point that you needed to clarify I should, by experience, be better by tomorrow.

ATB 

Phil

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At the start of your timescale the vast majority of the Eastern Section - or SECR as it still was - bogie stock consisted of 'birdcage' trio sets of various lengths and these would rarely have been split : the 60' ones ( Bachmann ) were actually indivisible as they only had one dynamo for three coaches. Maunsell stock, when it was introduced, included a few four or five coach sets but the majority settled down as trios again. Yes, there were - relatively few - longer sets which might be supplemented with a Pullman Car* - but your best bet for a 'typical' formation would be to stick to three-sets with as many Corridor Third 'swingers' as you fancy .......... and a luggage van or two if your platform space allows.

 

* or 'long' sets of 'birdcage' stock for 'hoppers', and other excursion work, which would most definitely not have Pullmans added.

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  • 3 months later...
25 minutes ago, AVS1998 said:

Hello again everyone, does anyone have any idea where I may find 4mm sides or a kit for a Maunsell Brake third, diagram 2103? It's an R1 8'6'' diagram and the closest I can find is a six compartment 2104, which is obviously wrong (2103 is a four compartment diagram). 

 

Many thanks!

 

- Alex 

 

 

No luck from either Mousa or Worsley it seems.

 

You could contact them and see if they would be willing to do a run of etches? I'd certainly put my name down for some.

 

Good luck!

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Excellent, flick me a PM if anything comes of it!

 

I suppose the other option would be to get one of the low window D2101 sides, plate over the ducket hole and not fully form the tumblehome? 

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Message Allen, (Worsley Works), I know that he often scales up the 3mm designs he has, and I think he even advertises on his website that he can. I would imagine you'll get a positive and prompt response, much like any of the times i've dealt with him!

 

No affiliation of course

 

 

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8 hours ago, AVS1998 said:

Hello again everyone, does anyone have any idea where I may find 4mm sides or a kit for a Maunsell Brake third, diagram 2103? It's an R1 8'6'' diagram and the closest I can find is a six compartment 2104, which is obviously wrong (2103 is a four compartment diagram). 

 

Many thanks!

 

- Alex 

 

Alex, Roxey Mouldings do a Diag 2103 with R4 ends. 4C146. Mike Hammersly will sell you a R1 ends etch.

 

BTW, Allen Doherty at WWorks is very good at commissions. He's currently doing us some etches for a 6-PAN which are eagerly awaited! The 'signature' picture at the bottom was a build from WW 4-LAV etches. 

 

20200130_061224.jpg.adc070e77fb7c2a986f44929ea83645e.jpg

 

20200130_062041.jpg.a79c04a5aadd3a44f80f480075a09338.jpg

 

We have this 4-set to build for Balcombe.

1155134438_BalcombeH2R1a.jpg.02ba10e79697fe90b6e550a31f171e8e.jpg

H2 Beachy Head with an excursion in the 50s. (Photographer unknown)

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12 hours ago, AVS1998 said:

Hello again everyone, does anyone have any idea where I may find 4mm sides or a kit for a Maunsell Brake third, diagram 2103? It's an R1 8'6'' diagram and the closest I can find is a six compartment 2104, which is obviously wrong (2103 is a four compartment diagram). 

 

Many thanks!

 

- Alex 

Check with Phoenix ( sales@srg.org.uk ) ...... Chris'll let you know whether the tooling's still OK or worn out !

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14 hours ago, Re6/6 said:

 

Alex, Roxey Mouldings do a Diag 2103 with R4 ends. 4C146. Mike Hammersly will sell you a R1 ends etch.

 

BTW, Allen Doherty at WWorks is very good at commissions. He's currently doing us some etches for a 6-PAN which are eagerly awaited! The 'signature' picture at the bottom was a build from WW 4-LAV etches. 

 

20200130_061224.jpg.adc070e77fb7c2a986f44929ea83645e.jpg

 

20200130_062041.jpg.a79c04a5aadd3a44f80f480075a09338.jpg

 

We have this 4-set to build for Balcombe.

1155134438_BalcombeH2R1a.jpg.02ba10e79697fe90b6e550a31f171e8e.jpg

H2 Beachy Head with an excursion in the 50s. (Photographer unknown)

My suspicions are that this is a naval special, possibly Chatham to Portsmouth and perhaps in connection with the Spithead Naval Review of 15 June 1953. 32424 is displaying a head code which was "spare" on both Eastern and Central Sections, and, while it was allocated to 75A, the first restriction 1 4-set is clearly from the Eastern Section. It would appear to be on the Brighton main line (north of Balcombe?) which might seem a little odd for a train to Portsmouth but at the time of a Naval Review just about every possible route would have been used.

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10 hours ago, bécasse said:

It would appear to be on the Brighton main line (north of Balcombe?) which might seem a little odd for a train to Portsmouth but at the time of a Naval Review just about every possible route would have been used.

 

Yes it is just north of Balcombe Station. 

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1 hour ago, Re6/6 said:

 

Yes it is just north of Balcombe Station. 

 

I can now attribute the picture.   It’s one of the John Smith photos from the Bluebell archive.

30 Jul 1955
Saturday
32424 Beachy Head

9.11am Eastbourne - Wolverhampton

 

An unusual set for the Brighton line. When built this set will feature on Balcombe behind 32424!

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3 hours ago, Re6/6 said:

 

I can now attribute the picture.   It’s one of the John Smith photos from the Bluebell archive.

30 Jul 1955
Saturday
32424 Beachy Head

9.11am Eastbourne - Wolverhampton

 

An unusual set for the Brighton line. When built this set will feature on Balcombe behind 32424!

That at least explains the Restriction 1 stock which was doubtless allocated to Eastbourne for use on one of the rare Cuckoo Line trains that worked through beyond Tunbridge Wells West to Tonbridge.

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13 hours ago, AVS1998 said:

Me again!

 

Does anyone know if the 9' 'Ashford' bogies are available anywhere, for Ironclads? I've looked on 247 Dev., Roxey and Worsley, and Comet, none of which have the bogies at all. I imagine an extra 4mm is not massively noticeable once the vehicle is moving and so standard Southern bogies may suffice, but it's still worth investigating for future reference. 

Phoenix again sales@srg.org.uk .................................. but I don't know why Weddell attributes them to Ashford when they're only an inside-frame version of the earlier 'Ironclad' bogie.

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On 31/01/2020 at 13:40, bécasse said:

That at least explains the Restriction 1 stock which was doubtless allocated to Eastbourne for use on one of the rare Cuckoo Line trains that worked through beyond Tunbridge Wells West to Tonbridge.

There were a couple of longer R1 sets that replaced the R4 stock (sets 469/70) which were discovered to have clearance issues in Lewes tunnel while working Eastbourne-London peak services...

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9 hours ago, talisman56 said:

There were a couple of longer R1 sets that replaced the R4 stock (sets 469/70) which were discovered to have clearance issues in Lewes tunnel while working Eastbourne-London peak services...

Indeed, but Eastbourne-London services, peak or off-peak, had long been electrically worked (and the clearance problems in Lewes tunnel sorted) when the photo in question was taken.

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  • 1 month later...

Boat trains normally conveyed 1st, 2nd and 3rd class accommodation (in addition to any Pullmans which in most cases were there to provide catering) in 1927-28 and, indeed, until June 1956 when 2nd class was abandoned in Europe and 3rd class became 2nd.

 

Carriages which were described as "nondescript" were precisely that and could be used as 1st, 2nd or 3rd as the anticipated demand required. Normally paper labels were used to indicate the "class of the day" although antimacassars were added to seat backs when a carriage was used as 1st class.

 

You are correct in assuming that specific vehicles were allocated to the boat train pool but that there were no boat train sets as such. (Specific vehicles, "swingers" was the everyday railway parlance, were however allocated to the Night Ferry service when it started and this practice continued well into the BR era.)

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The low-window Maunsells that were built for the Newhaven services kept pretty much to those services until about 1954, when the seconds and second brakes were downgraded to thirds and seemed to be incorporated into general user pool, along with the associated firsts and thirds. After that, the Newhaven boat train seemed to attract a motley combination of stock, including 'Continental' brakes, high-window Maunsells and the occasional Bulleid third or composite, from the pictures I have seen over the years.

 

However, I've come across this one from 1950...

 

glc - 20003 on newhaven boat train departing victoria 05-4-1950

 

From flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnmightycat/36617146343

 

Edited by talisman56
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I apologise in advance if this is a really simple question, but I can't get to the bottom of it, despite having done my own researches. I am considering acquiring some of the seemingly excellent Hornby Maunsell coaches but cant get to grips with what differences there are in the releases around 2008(?) and then the more recent versions.  For example, R4300D and R4768A *seem* to be the same carriage, both Brake Thirds, yet command different prices. Can some kind person help me out of my misery please?

 

many thanks for any guidance offered...

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R4768a is the high window variant seen in the earlier built coaches and r4300D is the lower window version. For some reason Hornby seemed to produce more high window olive maunsells first and low window malachite/ BR ones and have recently reversed this by producing said liveries on the opposite coaches.

 

Cheers 

 

Pete

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The coaches look almost identical from the compartment side but the window height is significantly different on the corridor side. The higher window was a later version presumably to address passenger comments that you had to stoop to look through the corridor windows on the first low window version.

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Thanks Pete - so the difference between the two releases appears to be low window for the earlier tranche and high window for the later. That makes complete sense and I'm embarrased to admit I hadn't twigged that when doing me earlier researches..

 

Presumably, to all intents and purposes - apart from the change in window profile - the carriages are the same 'standard'...

 

thanks once again..

 

Hugh

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6 hours ago, cabbie37 said:

Thanks Pete - so the difference between the two releases appears to be low window for the earlier tranche and high window for the later. That makes complete sense and I'm embarrased to admit I hadn't twigged that when doing me earlier researches..

 

Presumably, to all intents and purposes - apart from the change in window profile - the carriages are the same 'standard'...

 

thanks once again..

 

Hugh

 

If your looking for a particular set which these would have worked in then having a look on the semgonline site as it has an excel doc with them all on where they were allocated ect. 

 

It's handy when trying to put different sets together and comparing to what Hornby have made. 

 

I've adapted the sheet over the years to make it more useful for my own purposes using other resources but it's a great starting point.

 

Cheers 

 

Pete

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