Southern Maunsell Coaching Stock discussion

[Guest Jack Benson]

5 hours ago, Iain.d said:

Hi Jack,

 

There are many pictures of Maunsell Low Window stock in Ivo Peters' books on the Somerset and Dorset, in particular the two 1950s ones and also 'An English Cross Country Railway' one. Is there anything specific you're looking for?

 

Kind regards,

 

Iain

Iain,

 

My interest lies is the WoE more than the SDJR.

Looking for images of the low window 4 compartment stock in service in the West Country, not all were transferred to the SDJR. However, I think the chances are slim therefore images from the SDJR will be most appreciate if the stock is shown rather than the more normal loco + the first three coaches. The best image that I can find is the Masbury Summit image and a 4F near Midford in the Arlett colour album.

 

Thanks and Stay Safe

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dunsignalling]

4 hours ago, Jack Benson said:

Iain,

 

My interest lies is the WoE more than the SDJR.

Looking for images of the low window 4 compartment stock in service in the West Country, not all were transferred to the SDJR. However, I think the chances are slim therefore images from the SDJR will be most appreciate if the stock is shown rather than the more normal loco + the first three coaches. The best image that I can find is the Masbury Summit image and a 4F near Midford in the Arlett colour album.

 

Thanks and Stay Safe

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your most productive hunting ground for photos of the low-window 3-sets other than on the S&D is likely to be stopping services west of Exeter. It wasn't just on the S&D that their use was largely restricted to solo work on secondary services. Best chance of finding views of them within longer formations on the WoE main line proper will be Padstow (and possibly Ilfracombe) portions of through services in SR and early BR days (before Bulleid stock became sufficiently plentiful to displace them).

 

They would occasionally put in appearances on Salisbury-Exeter stoppers, but the Maunsell sets used on those were usually the ones with 6-compartment brakes. 

 

The "big van" sets cost the equivalent of half a coach-worth of seating capacity compared with those. They would have been a darned nuisance had they inadvertently got into commuter services and the luggage capacity would have been wasted, too. Hence their allocation to the far west (from new) and later the S&D. 

 

John

Edited October 29, 2020 by Dunsignalling

[Iain.d]

On 29/10/2020 at 23:00, Jack Benson said:

Iain,

 

My interest lies is the WoE more than the SDJR.

Looking for images of the low window 4 compartment stock in service in the West Country, not all were transferred to the SDJR. However, I think the chances are slim therefore images from the SDJR will be most appreciate if the stock is shown rather than the more normal loco + the first three coaches. The best image that I can find is the Masbury Summit image and a 4F near Midford in the Arlett colour album.

 

Thanks and Stay Safe

 

Hi Jack,

 

I don’t have many books covering the southern region or the West of England services. I have had a look through the ones that I do have and there aren’t any pictures in them of formations containing Maunsell Low Window stock (that I can easily identify); there are plenty of images containing High Window stock.

 

I had a look at David Gould’s Maunsell’s SR Steam Carriage Stock and a brief summary of his chapter on early 59ft Corridor Stock would suggest that not that many were built (compared to later high window ones). For the initial build, (1925) he states 10 x 3 coach sets, 2 x 8 coach sets, 1 x 10 coach set, 1 x 11 coach set, 10 x loose corridor brake composites, 10 x general saloons and a half dozen each of dining cars split between 1st class and 3rd class. The individual carriages were placed in formations of pre-grouping stock.

 

Of these, the 10 x 3 coach sets and the 10 Brake Composites were destined for the West of England and the remainder were for the central section services.

 

In 1926 and 1927 more were built but not in particularly large numbers (other than third class vehicles); four more 3 carriage sets were intended for WoE services. In his chapter summary, he says that in 1929 the 14 3 carriage sets worked mainly on the Weymouth trains and that 10 brake composites were used in the up and down Atlantic Coast Express (5 in each) from Ilfracombe, Torrington, Plymouth, Padstow and Bude. They were mixed in with SR Ironclad and ex-LSWR vehicles.

 

The above is a very brief and condensed summary and not really doing Gould’s book justice. If you don’t have a copy it might help you; I refer to my copy regularly.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Iain

Edited October 31, 2020 by Iain.d
missing word

[Guest Jack Benson]

 

I should have uploaded this image a week ago, it is an exBTM for Bournemouth dropping back from Templecombe, set 392 with a Gresley all third (not quite the same as Hornby's)

It must be almost at the end of the SDJR when the WReg was busy destroying any vestiges of the Southern west of Salisbury.

 

Cheers and Stay Safe

[Dunsignalling]

4 hours ago, Jack Benson said:

 

I should have uploaded this image a week ago, it is an exBTM for Bournemouth dropping back from Templecombe, set 392 with a Gresley all third (not quite the same as Hornby's)

It must be almost at the end of the SDJR when the WReg was busy destroying any vestiges of the Southern west of Salisbury.

 

Cheers and Stay Safe

The photo will date from between when Templecombe's first pannier (9561) arrived in January 1959 and the departure of the 9Fs with the cessation of through services over the S&D at the end of the Summer 1962 timetable.

 

EDIT: I can get closer than that, referring to my copy of Gould, Set 392 was withdrawn in October 1959. * SEE NEXT POST

 

*** The pannier is likely to be 3765, which replaced 9561 at Templecombe in the April.*** DISREGARD - See next post.

 

Also, the photo was probably taken on a weekday, as the 9F would have been needed for more strenuous duties on a Saturday.

 

It was not unusual to see ex-LNER coaches in use as strengtheners on ex-LSWR territory in the early 1960s. The SR lost a lot of 1920s-built stock with the implementation of the BTC 30-year Directive, and the 1930's Gresleys (and some Thompsons) were presumably surplus to requirements on their home turf which had been copiously provided with new BR Mk1s. That one is the end-vestibule type and such a vehicle has appeared in a number of published photos so it may have been around for some while.   

 

John

Edited November 8, 2020 by Dunsignalling
Addition

[Dunsignalling]

It's just occurred to me that (according to Ivo Peters) the first trials of 9Fs over the S&D didn't take place until March 1960. As sets 391/2/3 were all withdrawn prior to that, the one in the photo must be another and it eliminates my identification of the pannier too. 3765 departed by the end of 1959 and for 1960/1 the candidates will be 3720, 3795 and 4691. 

 

The remainder of  the Maunsell low window 3-sets (390/394-399) went in late 1961, so the photo dates from between March 1960 and October 1961.

 

John

Edited November 8, 2020 by Dunsignalling

[Guest Jack Benson]

Hi,

 

I should have added the following info from the back of the postcard:-

 

Date August 1960

Train 09:03 exBTM- B'mouth

Train loco 9F 92206 Banked by 5730

SR Set 398 withdrawn 1961 (my typo)

 

Cheers and Stay Safe

 

 

[Dunsignalling]

16 minutes ago, Jack Benson said:

Hi,

 

I should have added the following info from the back of the postcard:-

 

Date August 1960

Train 09:03 exBTM- B'mouth

Train loco 9F 92206 Banked by 5730

SR Set 398 withdrawn 1961 (my typo)

 

Cheers and Stay Safe

 

 

Thanks, I think the pannier must be mis-identified in the caption though. The one pictured is an 8750 with the later Collett cab, 5730 would have had the lower Churchward pattern.

 

According to BR database, 5730 was withdrawn in March 1958 and broken up the following month. Final shed not specified, but the 1957 locoshed book lists 5730 at 87C Danygraig.

 

GW number plates being notoriously easy to misread at any distance, my guess is it's most likely 3720.  

 

John 

Edited November 8, 2020 by Dunsignalling

[Fredo]

Hi, sorry I am getting a bit confused, can anyway confirm for me the make up of Maunsell Set 247 from 1951 to withdrawal. Thanks Fred

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, Fredo said:

Hi, sorry I am getting a bit confused, can anyway confirm for me the make up of Maunsell Set 247 from 1951 to withdrawal. Thanks Fred

From 1951: 3777 + 5691 + 3794.

 

The compo was replaced by 5659 in 1955 and Bulleid compo 5889 in late 1961.

 

Set appears to have been broken up with the WR boundary changes. 3777 transferred to WR 1/63, 3794 withdrawn 12/62. 5889 to loose stock until 1964.

 

John

Edited January 29, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[Fredo]

Thanks John.

any idea on where I can find out how many of the 6 set coaches were in Crimson and Cream livery from 1951 to 1955. 
thanks again Fred

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, Fredo said:

Thanks John.

any idea on where I can find out how many of the 6 set coaches were in Crimson and Cream livery from 1951 to 1955. 
thanks again Fred

The standard works on the coaches don't go into livery changes in detail. I take it you mean Bournemouth line 6-dining sets? There'd certainly be some, but how many are you thinking of having? If it's just one set, the worst sin you can commit is wrong numbers and (possibly) the wrong type of RKF. However, the differences aren't glaringly obvious until you start reading up on the subject. Buffet Car conversions are a whole other can of worms!

 

I'm afraid you're going to have to pore over as many photo books as you can get your hands on and pray the set numbers are legible (and the caption includes the date) when you find what you are looking for. Getting a set that is dead right will take effort and/or luck. Also, some sets will inevitably have changed livery during those four years so you might end up only half right anyway.   

 

My advice is to put together a "representative set" that's as close as possible to what you want using what's available, and renumber or replace if and when you acquire the info. Chances are that, if you do it the other way round  the "absolutely correct" coaches will be long out of production by the time you realise you need them (Murphy's Law).

 

My own sets are mostly green and are going to run on an imaginary layout set a few years later. Some I know to be right (either from my  own poring or Hornby's research) but any that involve guesswork will conform to equally imaginary Carriage Working Notices until I know better! My long cross-country set I now know to be wrong, because it was all green by the time it got made up to that length. Mine is six c/c and two green and includes a SO in place of the Nondescript saloon that should be in it! It'll gradually get "better" as the right discontinued Hornby coaches (and a kit- built Nondescript) come my way...

 

John

 

 

Edited January 29, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[Fredo]

Ok thanks John we will have a look but may go down the Mark 1 route. Fred

[Dunsignalling]

14 minutes ago, Fredo said:

Ok thanks John we will have a look but may go down the Mark 1 route. Fred

If you do, beware the r-t-r crimson/cream RMB. That's a preservation-era thing only as BR had gone over to maroon and regional colours before they were introduced.

 

John

[chris45lsw]

If you do mean the Bulleid Bournemouth 6-sets, 299 was painted experimental plum & spilt milk in 1948.  None were painted crimson lake & cream until Dec 1953 (299) and 293 was also CL&C by June 1954.  By Sep 1955 so were 291, 297, 298 & 300 and 294 & 296 by June 1956.  290, 292 & 295 were never CL&C and went straight from SR green to BR green.

 

Chris KT 

[Guest Jack Benson]

Hello,

 

Just considering adding a catering set for the layout, please note that it depicts ‘48-52, an interesting transition timeframe.

 

Were the Maunsell restaurant and open ever painted in CLC livery, has Hornby released them in CLC?

 

Thanks for any and all advice

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, Jack Benson said:

Hello,

 

Just considering adding a catering set for the layout, please note that it depicts ‘48-52, an interesting transition timeframe.

 

Were the Maunsell restaurant and open ever painted in CLC livery, has Hornby released them in CLC?

 

Thanks for any and all advice

Not yet, but the Kitchen First (R.40029) is imminent and the Composite Dining Saloon (R.40222) has been announced, though Hornby describe it as a First.

 

The TO must have been released in CLC because I have one, but can't recall when! No idea of the R number as the box is in the loft.

 

John

Edited April 15, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Guest Jack Benson]

Hi John,

 

Just wondering if CLC is appropriate for the catering set in my timeframe of ‘48-52, indeed should my prized 4-comp set be CLC? Replacing them is not really an option as I doubt that Hornby offered them in Malachite.

 

StaySafe

[Dunsignalling]

36 minutes ago, Jack Benson said:

Hi John,

 

Just wondering if CLC is appropriate for the catering set in my timeframe of ‘48-52, indeed should my prized 4-comp set be CLC? Replacing them is not really an option as I doubt that Hornby offered them in Malachite.

 

StaySafe

It's not possible to state that all such stock would have been repainted quickly but Kitchen/Dining vehicles are, by definition, predominantly used in high profile services. As such, they would have been early candidates for repainting into CLC.

 

As has been the case throughout railway history, stock forming such trains was expected to represent the latest and best the company had to offer, and would be prioritised for uniform application of the latest livery.

 

These coaches weren't displaced from the best trains until the arrival of Bulleid and BR Mk1 catering stock, so I'd estimate that, by the end of your timeframe, one could reasonably expect at least half of them to be carrying CLC. 

 

Logically, though, vehicles with older (Maunsell) paint should have received new CLC before those with "younger" Malachite, which would thus persist longer and, indeed, continued to be applied to new Bulleid stock by BR until CLC was adopted.

 

John

Edited April 15, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Guest Jack Benson]

Hello John,

 

The CLC Maunsells will continue to soldier on, too much effort  invested in them to replace and the R40029 does look appealing but if you could look at the box of the CLC TO, I would be mightly grateful for the R number.

 

Although not relevant, all stock on the layout is some type of red, the rebuilt Bachmann Bulleids would have been CLC as built but the non-corridor stock is early crimson. I won’t mention the NPCS but it isn’t green.

 

StaySafe and thanks

[Dunsignalling]

47 minutes ago, Jack Benson said:

Hello John,

 

The CLC Maunsells will continue to soldier on, too much effort  invested in them to replace and the R40029 does look appealing but if you could look at the box of the CLC TO, I would be mightly grateful for the R number.

 

Although not relevant, all stock on the layout is some type of red, the rebuilt Bachmann Bulleids would have been CLC as built but the non-corridor stock is early crimson. I won’t mention the NPCS but it isn’t green.

 

StaySafe and thanks

 

There's no way I'm able to get the box down at present, but the coach is in the 2020 catalogue.

 

There are therefore likely to be a few still to be had if you Google hard enough. Cat. No. is R.4835.

 

Significant numbers of non-corridor coaches and NPCCS vehicles went straight from SR green (albeit with BR numbering etc.) into BR green or were withdrawn in the mid-to-late 1950s without ever seeing a brush with red paint on it, so don't be afraid of mixing things up a bit.

 

John

Edited April 15, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Guest Jack Benson]

John, 

 

Very many thanks. Found an example, it is odd how different the catalog images look compared to ‘in the flesh’ 

Much appreciated 

 

StaySafe

 

 

[Dorsetmike]

I asked Worsley Works to produce some etched N gauge Maunsell open 3rds and Ironclad Restaurant cars, I got 12 of each  (2 full sheets plus some bogie side frames for Urie/Maunsell 8 wheel tenders)

I scanned the sides into some  photo editing software coloured, lined and lettered then printed to self adhesive vinyl, painted the sides white, formed a tumblehome on the sides, stuck some clear acetate on the back of the sides at window level, acquired some rough second hand Dapol and Farish coaches, cut away the window frames and stuck the etched sides to the doctored bodies, added the vinyl sides, modified the roof vent positions where necessary.

 

[Dorsetmike]

In case anyone is wondering why I chose the ironclad Restaurant rather than the Maunsell, I felt that the recessed kitchen doors would be a problem especially getting the overlays to fit; this was less of a problem with the open third end doors, if you look at the etches you will see that the end doors are separate from the main body and have enough width to solder onto the back of the main part, note also that there is a bit cut out giving a guide to location behind the window.

I have since started t use a similar technique, scan and "decorate" with some  3D printed 1930s Leyland buses, still a work in progress, needs a bit of tidying up

 

[Tobbes]

Afternoon everyone,

 

A quick question if I may - have Hornby produced a Dia 2110 BSK?

 

If not, how would it differ in OO from a High Window  Dia 2102 BSK? Looking at the plans in Hugh Longworth's 'BR Pre-Nationalisation Coaching Stock Vol 2', and the Diagrams in Gould, all I can see is that the door between the corridor and the brake compartment swings in Dia 2102 and is replaced by a sliding door in Dia 2110, but the the compartments and exterior appear identical.

 

If that's the case, then I presume a Dia 2110 is simply a renumbering of a DIa 2102?

 

Many thanks in helping with my confusion,

 

Toby