"Tangmere" at Hastings

[Oldddudders]

I'm not really a Video person, but finding myself in Hastings, with a steam excursion in town, was just too good an opportunity to miss!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4L2dVSW3PlM

[Forester]

Slippery great pacific! Should have given it to the loco designed for the job.

 

Maunsell would have made a "V" sign at that performance 

[EddieB]

For a moment I imagined I could smell the coal smoke!

 

(Cough, splutter).

[burgundy]

Lovely video, but, just out of curiosity, did pacifics ever work through to Hastings in steam days? I presume that the clearances on the Tunbridge Wells line would have excluded them and the third rail would have been laid before their construction (and I thought that the tunnels through St Leonards were non too generous). 

Best wishes

Eric

[Guest]

Lovely video, but, just out of curiosity, did pacifics ever work through to Hastings in steam days? I presume that the clearances on the Tunbridge Wells line would have excluded them and the third rail would have been laid before their construction (and I thought that the tunnels through St Leonards were non too generous). 

Best wishes

Eric

I know that the Southern Built Light Pacifics were within the loading gauge restrictions to be able to, but I'm not sure how often, if ever, they went down that route.

[Bruciethefish]

I'm pretty sure a light pacific took us on a school outing to Romney marsh from Ore, some 50-odd years ago, but the details are somewhat fuzzy..

[phil-b259]

I know that the Southern Built Light Pacifics were within the loading gauge restrictions to be able to, but I'm not sure how often, if ever, they went down that route.

 

Allegedly part of the reason Bulleid fitted the first few pacifics with very narrow cabs is he designed them to fit down the Hastings line via Tunbridge Wells. Whether this was ever tested for real seems uncertain, but to my mind the bigger puzzle is why Bullied thought it necessary in the first place. After all Maunsell's schools weren't that old and didn't have any problems coping with even the most demanding trains on the route.

 

Other thing is that the Maunsell era electric stock used from Eastbourne after the 1935 electrification was to the standard 'restriction 4' profile so I don't think St Leonards tunnel could have been quite that bad despite its later reconstruction in the 50s

[Oldddudders]

burgundy, on 21 Dec 2014 - 23:46, said:

Lovely video, but, just out of curiosity, did pacifics ever work through to Hastings in steam days? I presume that the clearances on the Tunbridge Wells line would have excluded them and the third rail would have been laid before their construction (and I thought that the tunnels through St Leonards were non too generous). 

 

Any fool with a video-capable camera, or just an iPhone, might have done at least as well!

 

Not sure I have any real answer to your question, but of course long after the 1935 electrification to Eastbourne and Ore, there were penetrating steam services. Until 1965 there was a Hastings portion of the daily through train to Birkenhead, which ran via Eastbourne, but was only a few coaches, as others were attached at Redhill, having arrived from Margate via Canterbury. And there was a very nasty accident at Eastbourne in, I think, the '50s, with an Inter-Regional steam passenger service running by and colliding with another just leaving. So steam was still about, and there were sheds at both Eastbourne and St Leonards West Marina until the early '60s. ISTR seeing a pic of a Bulleid pacific on a train from Eastbourne to Hailsham, so they were in the area.

 

And I'm sure I've seen pics of a Leader being tested in that vicinity, near West Marina. Add-in the fact that both Brighton and Ashford were main workshops in steam days, the former erecting most light pacifics, of course, and I'd wager there were no clearance issues on the route between them, even if regular services were not often hauled by WC/BB locos.

[burgundy]

Ian
I can remember taking the car sleeper from Eastbourne to Perth(?) and it being steam hauled, so I would not disagree that there were steam workings around the Eastbourne area quite late on. I am less clear why there might have been passenger steam working further along the coast to Hastings. If I understand correctly, the allocation of passenger locos at St Leonards in later days was mainly to support the Tunbridge Wells route – even though the shed itself was originally built by the Brighton. 
My comment about the tunnels through St Leonards and Hastings was prompted by a note in a Brighton Working Time Table, which made clear that certain loco classes (and possibly types of rolling stock) were prohibited from going beyond St Leonards Marina - i.e. not beyond Bo-Peep Junction onto South Eastern metals. I know that the Brighton had a slightly more generous loading gauge than the other Southern companies and that consequently certain locos had boiler fittings and cabs cut down to meet the composite loading gauge. I assume that clearances in the Hastings/St Leonards tunnels met the normal SER standards (and therefore the Southern composite gauge), rather than the enlarged rabbit holes that were encountered on the way to Tunbridge Wells!
Best wishes
Eric

[phil_sutters]

My comment about the tunnels through St Leonards and Hastings was prompted by a note in a Brighton Working Time Table, which made clear that certain loco classes (and possibly types of rolling stock) were prohibited from going beyond St Leonards Marina - i.e. not beyond Bo-Peep Junction onto South Eastern metals. I know that the Brighton had a slightly more generous loading gauge than the other Southern companies and that consequently certain locos had boiler fittings and cabs cut down to meet the composite loading gauge. I assume that clearances in the Hastings/St Leonards tunnels met the normal SER standards (and therefore the Southern composite gauge), rather than the enlarged rabbit holes that were encountered on the way to Tunbridge Wells!

Best wishes

Eric

I had 'searched' Hastings for something else, and apart from having been at Hastings when Tangmere was, but in 2009, I remembered that I had photos of the St.Leonards tunnel mouths. They look quite large, especially in the height dimension.

 

I was on the north side of Tangmere, with the sun behind it and the shiny streamlining making it hard to get a decent shot.

 

Edited June 23, 2017 by phil_sutters

[burgundy]

I had 'searched' Hastings for something else, and apart from having been at Hastings when Tangmere was, but in 2009, I remembered that I had photos of the St.Leonards tunnel mouths. They look quite large, especially in the height dimension.

Phil

After a little excavation, I have found some extracts from the Appendix to the 1922 WTT. It appears to be Bo-Peep tunnel from which specific types are excluded. These were the Royal saloon No 592, all Pullman cars,  LNWR dining cars, 9ft wide elliptical stock, Baltics and Moguls.

Best wishes

Eric

[Oldddudders]

Phil

After a little excavation, I have found some extracts from the Appendix to the 1922 WTT. It appears to be Bo-Peep tunnel from which specific types are excluded. These were the Royal saloon No 592, all Pullman cars,  LNWR dining cars, 9ft wide elliptical stock, Baltics and Moguls.

Best wishes

Eric

So generous clearances at St Leonards appear a mite pointless if Bo-Peep is restricted. I assume the 1932 Pullmans in the Puls were deemed in-gauge. Must have been about 1958 we had a day trip to Pevensey, from Betchworth. I recall as we waited for the return trip a C2x rushing by light engine.

[Oldddudders]

Just looking at Google images, Bo-Peep is straight, as I thought, and unsurprisingly, the west portal appears to be pretty much as generous as the east. Were there Southern Railway works to enlarge it? If not, why the LBSCR restrictions? If it were the SECR that had restrictions it might have been due to side-throw on the tightly-curved down platform at West St Leonards, but it was the Brighton.

 

Curiouser and curiouser, said Alice.

[phil_sutters]

For those unfamiliar with the area, the Bo-Peep tunnel starts at the west end of St.Leonards Warrior Square Station, shown in the photo on the right, and runs through to just before Bo-Peep junction, where the line to Bexhill, Eastbourne and Brighton carries straight along the coast. The line to Tunbridge Wells and Tonbridge curves away sharply through West St.Leonards. I have heard why Bo-Peep got its curious name, but like a lot of things that bit of grey matter seems to be lost.

[Oldddudders]

I have drunk, though not become so, in the adjoining Bo-Peep tavern.

[burgundy]

Just looking at Google images, Bo-Peep is straight, as I thought, and unsurprisingly, the west portal appears to be pretty much as generous as the east. Were there Southern Railway works to enlarge it? If not, why the LBSCR restrictions? If it were the SECR that had restrictions it might have been due to side-throw on the tightly-curved down platform at West St Leonards, but it was the Brighton.

 

Curiouser and curiouser, said Alice.

 

I have a nagging feeling for which I have not been able to find any source or evidence at the moment. It is that the Brighton did not allow trains to pass in the Bo-Peep tunnel, as there had been an incident when the duckets of guards vans on passing trains had made contact. Brake vans were 9' 2" over the duckets and so were among the widest items of stock. This suggests that it is the clearance between the tracks that was the problem, rather than the clearance from the tunnel walls. If the 6' way really is 6' wide, my maths suggests that there should be about 18" clearance between passing duckets. How much roll and yaw outside the vehicle's normal profile might you expect as a worst case?

I suspect that the reference is buried somewhere in the Brighton Circular or in a discussion on the e-group, but I have not been able to track it down.

My apologies if this adds to the confusion!

Best wishes

Eric    

[Oldddudders]

I have a nagging feeling for which I have not been able to find any source or evidence at the moment. It is that the Brighton did not allow trains to pass in the Bo-Peep tunnel, as there had been an incident when the duckets of guards vans on passing trains had made contact. Brake vans were 9' 2" over the duckets and so were among the widest items of stock. This suggests that it is the clearance between the tracks that was the problem, rather than the clearance from the tunnel walls. If the 6' way really is 6' wide, my maths suggests that there should be about 18" clearance between passing duckets. How much roll and yaw outside the vehicle's normal profile might you expect as a worst case?

I suspect that the reference is buried somewhere in the Brighton Circular or in a discussion on the e-group, but I have not been able to track it down.

My apologies if this adds to the confusion!

Best wishes

Eric

 

Au contraire - it adds to our sum of knowledge, and is plausible. I think Lewes tunnel was also a pinch-point. I think vehicle suspensions were in some cases a little less taut then, but hardly to that extent.

[phil_sutters]

Now that Lewes has been mentioned (RMweb diversion) I am puzzled why there is a 5mph? speed restriction under the road over-bridge to the west of the station. There's doubtless a good reason. It seems to have been there as far back as I can remember (2009 when we moved south)