Henley-on-Thames - GWR in the 1930's

[Neal Ball]

4 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

I still reckon it would look better in upper case.

It looks as if the sign will be changed - capitalised and the brewery name added.

 

A search for pub signs across Google shows the majority are in capital letters and a potted research of 12 Bolton pubs shows the brewery name is added in 11 cases: http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2011/06/1930s-pub.html

 

I find the accompanying photo fascinating. A very unusual name, but full of character of the time:

 

The article above was penned in 2011. A more recent blog from this year includes a couple of Simonds beer mats.

 

Simonds were a Reading brewery that was originally based on Broad st before moving to Bridge st. Reading. They merged with Courage in 1970. With the brewery closing in 1978 and it’s now part of the Oracle shopping centre.

 

 

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, Neal Ball said:

It looks as if the sign will be changed - capitalised and the brewery name added.

 

A search for pub signs across Google shows the majority are in capital letters and a potted research of 12 Bolton pubs shows the brewery name is added in 11 cases: http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2011/06/1930s-pub.html

 

I find the accompanying photo fascinating. A very unusual name, but full of character of the time:

 

The article above was penned in 2011. A more recent blog from this year includes a couple of Simonds beer mats.

 

Simonds were a Reading brewery that was originally based on Broad st before moving to Bridge st. Reading. They merged with Courage in 1970. With the brewery closing in 1978 and it’s now part of the Oracle shopping centre.

 

 

Brakspear's, surely?

[KNP]

The other one that was local to Henley was Wethered's based at Marlow, they had many pubs in and around the area.

[Neal Ball]

18 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Brakspear's, surely?

 

Yes of course - although this advert is from the Kellys directory for 1938. It will therefore be the henley Brewery, which of course is Brakespear.

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, KNP said:

The other one that was local to Henley was Wethered's based at Marlow, they had many pubs in and around the area.

 

Thanks Kevin, I'd forgotten that Wethereds were also local.

 

I wonder though, back in the day, how far some of the local Breweries went. In the history of Simonds, they apparently accounted for 1% of all IPA sales, so clearly they covered a wider area.

 

But I am not sure thats the case for someone like Brakespear. I suspect it was only with the takeovers in the 1960's that we saw beer travelling further afield. Sadly that also saw the rise of Watney Red Barrel. 

[Neal Ball]

Todays virtual exhibition:

 

I've just watched the video interview with Jason Schron and hera they are due to announce 2 x UK locos with a 3rd about to go to the drawing board.

 

The gunpowder van is going to tooling as well.

 

Interesting times...

[richbrummitt]

4 hours ago, Neal Ball said:

 

I find the accompanying photo fascinating. A very unusual name, but full of character of the time:

 

The roof really caught my eye. What a mix of sizes in the roof covering. It looks a complete mess in places and quite unlike anything I’ve ever seen in embossed plastic. 

[Metropolitan H]

Having an interest in beer and railways - and having grown up in Bracknell, where I started taking a real interest in pubs (and girls) during the later half of the 1960s, I have been driven to comment regarding the pud signs etc.

 

Also Mother was born in Wargrave, Maternal Grandmother came from Greys and married Grandfather in Henley circa 1905/10 (but they were chapel and while not to my knowledge tea-total there is not any real evidence of them visiting pubs).

 

Regarding the issue of beer transport it has been going on for much more than 150 years. "IPA (India Pale Ale) particularly from Burton was so called as it was brewed to keep and travel well for export to India. There is a long history of beer transport by rail - remember the undercroft at St.Pancras was specially built for dealing with train-loads of Burton beer for London - and there are lots of other examples.

 

Another Brewery of note in Henley was the "Greys Brewery" of "Holmes, Harper and Neame" - they also had a brewery in Stroud (Gloucestershire) and had at least 2 PO rail vans in the mid 1890s - POW Sides do a model in "O" gauge. The partnership broke up around the turn of the  C19th / C20th and sthere was then a big scandal when Holmes (a rich man) shot members of his household before turning the gun on himself! - No need to follow this theme further.

 

During my early drinking day the main local pubs (Bracknell and across to Henley etc) were tied to one of the following:

- "Henley Brewery Co." - Never "Brakespear" on the signs in that period, it took a long time till I realised that the "Brakespears" that my friends raved about was the same as I'd been drinking since a slightly young age!

- "Wethered" - Marlow, but taken over by Whitbeard in the later 1960s after which the Marlow Brewery stopped brewing.

- "Simonds" - Reading, but again taken over by "Courage" mid 1960s and the Reading brewery shut.

- "Morlands" - Abingdon. Carried on for a long while, but now subsumed into Greene King - who still brew "Old Speckled Hen", which was introduced in 1979 to commemorate 50 years of MG Cars at Abingdon.

 

North from Henley you would also get "Morrells" from Oxford - and of course there were Watneys and Ind Coope pubs in the area - not to mention "Berni Inns", which is a bit late for your period.

 

I am trying to remember and / or find photographic evidence of the Henley Brewery Co pub signage - without much joy. But memory (sometimes unreliable) says that there was a lot of dark blue and white - with use of CAPITALS, rather than lower case. The other thing to remember is that the signs were created by "Signwriters" / painters, who each had their own style - so there would be local deviations to the now published scripts / fonts.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Regards

Chris H

Edited November 7, 2020 by Metropolitan H
Emphasis on "Never Brakespear on 1960s signs".

[Neal Ball]

8 minutes ago, Metropolitan H said:

Having an interest in beer and railways - and having grown up in Bracknell, where I started taking a real interest in pubs (and girls) during the later half of the 1960s, I have been driven to comment regarding the pud signs etc.

 

Also Mother was born in Wargrave, Maternal Grandmother came from Greys and married Grandfather in Henley circa 1905/10 (but they were chapel and while not to my knowledge tea-total there is not any real evidence of them visiting pubs).

 

Regarding the issue of beer transport it has been going on for much more than 150 years. "IPA (India Pale Ale) particularly from Burton was so called as it was brewed to keep and travel well for export to India. There is a long history of beer transport by rail - remember the undercroft at St.Pancras was specially built for dealing with train-loads of Burton beer for London - and there are lots of other examples.

 

Another Brewery of note in Henley was the "Greys Brewery" of "Holmes, Harper and Neame" - they also had a brewery in Stroud (Gloucestershire) and had at least 2 PO rail vans in the mid 1890s - POW Sides do a model in "O" gauge. The partnership broke up around the turn of the  C19th / C20th and sthere was then a big scandal when Holmes (a rich man) shot members of his household before turning the gun on himself! - No need to follow this theme further.

 

During my early drinking day the main local pubs (Bracknell and across to Henley etc) were tied to one of the following:

- "Henley Brewery Co." - Never "Brakespear" on the signs, it took a long time till I realised that the "Brakespears" tha my friends raved about was the same as I'd been drinking since a slightly young age!

- "Wethered" - Marlow, but taken over by Whitbeard in the later 1960s after which the Marlow Brewery stopped brewing.

- "Simonds" - Reading, but again taken over by "Courage" mid 1960s and the Reading brewery shut.

- "Morlands" - Abingdon. Carried on for a long while, but now subsumed into Greene King - who still brew "Old Speckled Hen", which was introduced in 1979 to commemorate 50 years of MG Cars at Abingdon.

 

North from Henley you would also get "Morrells" from Oxford - and of course there were Watneys and Ind Coope pubs in the area - not to mention "Berni Inns", which is a bit late for your period.

 

I am trying to remember and / or find photographic evidence of the Henley Brewery Co pub signage - without much joy. But memory (sometimes unreliable) says that there was a lot of dark blue and white - with use of CAPITALS, rather than lower case. The other thing to remember is that the signs were created by "Signwriters" / painters, who each had their own style - so there would be local deviations to the now published scripts / fonts.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Regards

Chris H

 

Thats great Chris thank you. 

 

I looked at Wethereds for the Ship Inn, but saw on the Brewery history page that they didn't have any pubs in Henley. Its likely then to be Simonds, who had a number of pubs around the town. I had similarly forgotten about Morlands (Strange as its the only canned beer I drink here in Spain!).

 

I didn't know about Greys, so will have to do some research about them - love the story about the shootings!

 

Thanks for the information.

[Neal Ball]

44 minutes ago, richbrummitt said:

The roof really caught my eye. What a mix of sizes in the roof covering. It looks a complete mess in places and quite unlike anything I’ve ever seen in embossed plastic. 

 

That roof looks as if it's going to cave in anytime in the next 10 years or so.

 

Although the photo was from a page about 1930's pubs, It certainly has a very down at heel look to it!

 

Indeed the pub closed in 1906 and was demolished to make way for the Civic Centre. Apparently the photo was taken in 1900: http://lostpubsofbolton.blogspot.com/2011/04/eagle-and-child-spring-gardens.html 

[john dew]

Hi Neal

 

I think you will find that when the brewery name was on the pub sign it meant it was a tied house ie freehold owned by the brewery with the landlord as a tenant. This applied to most pubs up to Maggie Thatchers reforms......there were however quite a number of pubs that were actually owned by the landlord.......they were known as a “Free House”. This meant they carried a wider ranfe of beers from more than one brewer. Free House would be displayed prominently on the outside of the building.....not always on the sign.

 

If the Vidler Arms is fictional you have a choice.....tied or free!

 

Have fun

[Neal Ball]

5 hours ago, john dew said:

Hi Neal

 

I think you will find that when the brewery name was on the pub sign it meant it was a tied house ie freehold owned by the brewery with the landlord as a tenant. This applied to most pubs up to Maggie Thatchers reforms......there were however quite a number of pubs that were actually owned by the landlord.......they were known as a “Free House”. This meant they carried a wider ranfe of beers from more than one brewer. Free House would be displayed prominently on the outside of the building.....not always on the sign.

 

If the Vidler Arms is fictional you have a choice.....tied or free!

 

Have fun

Thanks John, yes of course.

 

But were there any free houses around in the 30’s? I thought the majority were tied.... but probably not tied in the sense we know today.

 

I could be wrong of course, but I thought before about the 60’s everything was owned by the breweries.

 

The Vidler will be Henley Brewery (Brakespears), I’m not sure about the ship yet...

 

[Joseph_Pestell]

12 minutes ago, Neal Ball said:

Thanks John, yes of course.

 

But were there any free houses around in the 30’s? I thought the majority were tied.... but probably not tied in the sense we know today.

 

I could be wrong of course, but I thought before about the 60’s everything was owned by the breweries.

 

The Vidler will be Henley Brewery (Brakespears), I’m not sure about the ship yet...

 

 

You are right that the vast majority of pubs were "tied". But a few freehouses did exist.

[john dew]

I think we are both correct.
 

As I understand it, from Victorian times the breweries tried to expand and  secure their market by buying up and tieing free houses when they came on the market. By the time of MrsThatchers reforms 90% of pubs were tied but it was a gradual process throughout the 20th century . i would suspect the total of free houses in the Thirties would, therefore, have been greater than 10%

 

I love this searching the by-ways for trivia.
 

 

 

Quote

 

[john dew]

On 06/11/2020 at 10:07, Neal Ball said:

After yesterday success with the Dean Goods, sadly it was all a bit hit and miss today. No matter how much I cleaned the track; the wheels, it seemed to make no difference. 

 

Sometimes thats the way it goes!

 

 

There is certainly plenty of space to add some extra weight. I'm not sure about adding the stay alive, although thats what it needs, maybe hook it up to a Toad to increase the number of pickups.

 

I have adjusted the pickups on the loco as that seemed also to be an issue.

 

All wasn't lost, after messing about for a bit and then leaving it in Platform 3 for a couple of hours, it happily made its way up the line to Twyford.

 

 

 

Back to the Dean

 

The poor performance is caused, in part, because after the very initial release the second fly wheel was removed!

 

A stay alive makes all the difference. There isnt a lot of room in the tender....I replaced the supplied plastic coal and was able to squeeze in a Hard wired Zimo, Lifelink and a full fat 6700 u/f supercap.

 

The added weight makes a big difference. I was running my Dean this afternoon and popped it on the scale so you could make a comparison. It weighs in at 230 gm

 

Hope that helps.....they are lovely when they run properly

 

 

[Neal Ball]

8 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

You are right that the vast majority of pubs were "tied". But a few freehouses did exist.

Thanks

 

7 hours ago, john dew said:

I think we are both correct.
 

As I understand it, from Victorian times the breweries tried to expand and  secure their market by buying up and tieing free houses when they came on the market. By the time of MrsThatchers reforms 90% of pubs were tied but it was a gradual process throughout the 20th century . i would suspect the total of free houses in the Thirties would, therefore, have been greater than 10%

 

I love this searching the by-ways for trivia.
 

 

 

 

Thanks John.

 

After the current pandemic, I wonder what the state of our pubs will be in 2021/22. Too many people will have got used to drinking at home.

 

3 hours ago, john dew said:

 

Back to the Dean

 

The poor performance is caused, in part, because after the very initial release the second fly wheel was removed!

 

A stay alive makes all the difference. There isnt a lot of room in the tender....I replaced the supplied plastic coal and was able to squeeze in a Hard wired Zimo, Lifelink and a full fat 6700 u/f supercap.

 

The added weight makes a big difference. I was running my Dean this afternoon and popped it on the scale so you could make a comparison. It weighs in at 230 gm

 

Hope that helps.....they are lovely when they run properly

 

 

 

Interesting, yes it does help, thanks a John.

 

Ive already taken a lot of the coal load out, but left quite a bit of surplus wiring in there, which will create space,

 

The new Zen black decoder is direct plug, rather than on a lead and comes with a small amount of brown out. They reckon the new stay alive from DCC concepts will keep a loco going for a metre.

 

Its also interesting about the weight. Having put the Dean goods on the layout, I then picked up the Pecket, which felt heavier. But 1/4 of the size.

 

Thanks as ever for the suggestions.

[Neal Ball]

Not much has happened at Henley on Thames this week or so.

 

Its that time of year to get painting done; I’ve already done a feature wall in the Lounge; next up is the outside Ballastrades!

 

Today is railway related though and I think I have settled on the sign for the Vidler Arms. I reckon Times New Roman is probably the right look...

 

[Neal Ball]

The idea was to have a few drinkers outside the pub, hence the Modelu drunken sailer being painted... but I’ve just come across two Bachmann characters, one could be the landlady, I think I will keep the cleaning lady for elsewhere.

 

[Neal Ball]

It’s getting there...

 

[Neal Ball]

There still a bit more to do, but I’m pleased with the effect.

 

Inside I’ve painted the walls black to stop light bleed and added a 100 ohm resister to reduce the light. It’s still a bit on the bright side and I now need to add a bar and customers etc.

 

 

[Tallpaul69]

Neal,

changing the subject, ( the grass in front of the pub reminded me)!:-

in November 2019 you said your thought your static grass applicator was not up to it?

 

Have you any update on that?

The reason I ask is that I will need to buy one soon and am interested in peoples experience with different models?

 

Many thanks

Paul 

[Neal Ball]

6 minutes ago, Tallpaul69 said:

Neal,

changing the subject, ( the grass in front of the pub reminded me)!:-

in November 2019 you said your thought your static grass applicator was not up to it?

 

Have you any update on that?

The reason I ask is that I will need to buy one soon and am interested in peoples experience with different models?

 

Many thanks

Paul 

At the time I was using the tea strainer type and it was pretty rubbish.
 

When I went to Warley last year I had a session on the Model Rail stand with Chris Nevard specifically about static grass. I then went over to the Bachmann / Woodland scenics stand and spoke to Peter Marriott. Both talked me through how to do it properly, with Peter demonstrating the static king. Initially I was put off by the price, but am glad I bought it, together with Woodland scenices grass. (All bought from TMC).

 

I would definitely recommend this system.

 

 

 

Usual disclaimer applies.

 

All of the scenic work I did during the Spanish lockdown in March to June was using the static king. 
 

Hope that helps.

[Neal Ball]

On 08/11/2020 at 03:11, john dew said:

 

Back to the Dean

 

The poor performance is caused, in part, because after the very initial release the second fly wheel was removed!

 

A stay alive makes all the difference. There isnt a lot of room in the tender....I replaced the supplied plastic coal and was able to squeeze in a Hard wired Zimo, Lifelink and a full fat 6700 u/f supercap.

 

The added weight makes a big difference. I was running my Dean this afternoon and popped it on the scale so you could make a comparison. It weighs in at 230 gm

 

Hope that helps.....they are lovely when they run properly

 

 

Thanks again John. Ive just weighed my Dean Goods.... 175 g is a bit different to your 230g.

 

I will be out with the liquid gravity soon!

 

[Neal Ball]

I see the GWR 2-6-0 43xx Moguls are now in stock... although Hattons have just said it's only the analogue versions in stock and the sound ones have not yet arrived in the country.

 

I guess I will have to wait :-( 

[john dew]

So I may get mine before you!

[MrWolf]

So I might just replace the Bachmann mogul I have had since nineteen ninety something? I haven't managed to blow it up yet and SWMBO says that at the rate my layout is progressing, I never will.