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Wild Boar Fell

ICI 40t Bogie Caustic Tankers - Where, when, who?

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I was just thinking that as well- I don't really know much about the Murgatroyds & ICI tankers other than being aware of the HD & Triang models, but had always assumed they were the kind of wagon generally seen in block trains, rather than singly in general mixed goods workings.

I don't remember ever seeing the real thing in traffic, but a former clubmate is a Triang collector and had a fair number of the white Murgatroyds tankers which he sometimes brought out for club running nights, so I guess I'm used to seeing them in block trains in model form

 

 

 

They're impressive beasts aren't they- after looking at those pics, I'm definitely feeling the need to own one or two....

 

At the risk of heading off-topic into general wishlistery, how good are the old HD & Triang models? Apart from the usual 1960's-standard wheels and bogies, are the basic mouldings accurate or did the manufacturers take liberties with them?

 

 

The Tri-ang one can be made much more accurate by narrowing the chassis and adding detail.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/gallery/album_2200/gallery_2274_2200_716163.jpg

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/gallery/album_2200/gallery_2274_2200_1027258.jpg

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/gallery/album_2200/gallery_2274_2200_26172.jpg

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/gallery/album_2200/gallery_2274_2200_188872.jpg

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

www.cctrans.org.uk

 

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Thanks Everyone,

Cheers for the info and photos, I am considering producing these as a kit if there is interest.

Regards,

Wild Boar Fell

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Thanks Everyone,

Cheers for the info and photos, I am considering producing these as a kit if there is interest.

Regards,

Wild Boar Fell

I'd be interested, if only because it'd be easier than trying to strip and repaint my H-D one.. The HD one's a nice model; the buffers, I recollect, were much better than the stumpy things on the majority of the SD range. H-D did some quite eclectic wagons; the Chlorine and Traffic Services 4-wheelers, and the bogie tank come to mind.

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To be honest, if it wasn't for the coupling, I'd struggle to know which one was which. :)

I'm not convinced that the 'Hornby-Dublo' one isn't a Triang one with Hornby couplings. The H-D one I've got has got plate-frame bogies, rather than the diamond-frame ones in the photo.

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They are two completely different models. The HD version has a metal die-cast chassis of the correct width whilst the Triang version has a plastic chassis wider than the body. I have just been in the loft and checked as I have quite a few of each and wasn't sure myself.

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Trying to recall if they were ever used on flows to/from Spondon (British Celanese - later Courtaulds).

I'm sure I've seen a photo in one of the Bradford-Barton books by David Larkin of one such wagon at Spondon; however, it's too cold to go down to the garage to look for it.. 

I've just donned my donkey-jacket and gone down to the garage; page 39 of Larkin's album dedicated to private-owner wagons has photos of both the 4-wheel chlorine tank and the bogie one.

The former has a metal strip the length of the wagon, lettered 'Murgatroyd's' about two-thirds of the way up the tank. It also has a 'BP' shield, and 'LIQUID CHLORINE' in capitals. The photo was taken at Crewe in 1969. Wagon number was T82.

The latter, taken at Spondon in 1974, carries the BP shield, and the lettering 'liquid chlorine' in lower case in a more '1960s' style of type face. Wagon number is T201

Interestingly, Murgatroyd's seemed to have avoided becoming part of ICI, or its predecessor, Brunner Mond; initially a private company, it became involved with the Stavely Iron and Chemical Company, and was later owned by Fisons, before becoming part of BP Chemicals.

Edited by Fat Controller

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They are two completely different models. The HD version has a metal die-cast chassis of the correct width whilst the Triang version has a plastic chassis wider than the body. I have just been in the loft and checked as I have quite a few of each and wasn't sure myself.

Very odd- mine definitely has plate bogies on it, and was originally lettered for ICI, not Murgatroyds. I had a gander at some of the H-D collectors sites, which showed a wagon (fitted with plate bogies) finished in that greeny-blue colour that ICI soda-ash tipplers and Salt Presflos were painted.

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I like this photo too. I am intrigued by the ground disc signal: did this rotate around its vertical axis to change the indication? Time to Google I suppose!

Yes they are AFAIK earlier (LNWR?) rotating signals with "modern" discs added to give an indication more like a modern disc signal.

I have a picture in one of my books on signals.

 

Keith

Edited by melmerby

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Trying to recall if they were ever used on flows to/from Spondon (British Celanese - later Courtaulds).

Do you mean the caustic soda or the chlorine tanks? My collections referred to earlier have several chlorines at Spondon.

 

Paul

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Do you mean the caustic soda or the chlorine tanks? My collections referred to earlier have several chlorines at Spondon.

 

Paul

 

The main two types I recall there were chlorine and acetic acid.

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Very odd- mine definitely has plate bogies on it, and was originally lettered for ICI, not Murgatroyds. I had a gander at some of the H-D collectors sites, which showed a wagon (fitted with plate bogies) finished in that greeny-blue colour that ICI soda-ash tipplers and Salt Presflos were painted.

 

Ah I see where you're probably getting confused Brian.

Hornby Dublo did the ICI version (I seem to recall it had also 5710 under the ICI logo), in a dark green/turquiose colour with plate bogies.

Triang did R247 which was in Red livery with ICI on and had diamond frame bogies, they later did another version for Canada in dark Blue also with the ICI  logo.

Triang then did R349 which was reliveried in white with Murgatroyd logos.

Hope this helps.

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To be honest, if it wasn't for the coupling, I'd struggle to know which one was which. :)

I agree, leading to:

 

I'm not convinced that the 'Hornby-Dublo' one isn't a Triang one with Hornby couplings. The H-D one I've got has got plate-frame bogies, rather than the diamond-frame ones in the photo.

which I did wonder about too. It was hard to find ANY pictures of the Hornby Dublo version.

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Hi John

Could you possibly let me know what paint could you used on the ICI bogie wagons,as I have a couple to do .

 

Thanks Simon.

Edited by peppercorn525

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Hi John

Could you possibly let me know what paint could you used on the ICI bogie wagons,as I have a couple to do .

 

Thanks Simon.

 

BR Rail Blue  - I had Halfords match ICI blue and mix me some up in a rattle can; it was indistinguishable from Rail Blue!!

 

Well - Beeching was chairman of ICI before he went to BR.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

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The Murgatroyd's caustic tankers were described in detail as has been suggested in Railway Archive No.15 by Peter Fidczuk. Murgatroyd' s Salt & Chemical Co was established after the war in Elworth, Sandbach, Chesire. My father was appointed manager of the salt plant when the factory opened about 1948. I got to know the tankers well, which were introduced in 1956, as I worked there during holidays. As  I helped to load them they were favourites of mine. Railway Archive has photos of 4 wheel tankers as well as the bogie ones. The tankers produced by Hornb/Triang are too short but the livery is well produced. I have several OO gauge ones & have fitted correct better bogies & wheels.  I have also converted a TT gauge tanker to 9 mm gauge to run on my narrow gauge railway. Highly improbable but as I have connections to Murgatroyds I think I am justified in doing it.

rivrail

 

 

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On 21/12/2014 at 15:59, APOLLO said:

Book "Celebration of Steam West Midlands" by J B Bucknall (Ian Allan)

 

Page 56 (top) Photo of a GW Pannier tank loco (6422) hauling one ICI bogie tank + Brake Van on 26 April 1957 at Oxley Branch Jcn working the Saturdays only Courtaulds sidings - Oxley sidings train. Caustic Soda mentioned as load.

 

Page 56 (bottom) Photo of GW 2-8-0 No 2850 on a local freight Oxley to Baggeridge Jcn again at Oxley Branch Jcn. Behind loco is a LMS Guards Van, ICI Bogie Tanker, 2 wood open wagons, 2 more ICI bogie tankers and then various wagons disappearing behind a tree !! No further details

 

This off the web - a blue (Hornby Dublo) one

 

lnwrf2075.jpg

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrf2075.htm

 

Hope this is of use.

 

Brit15

 

On 24/12/2014 at 09:46, Fat Controller said:

That rake of tank wagons is improbably mixed...

 

Just saw this thread, it having been resurected. This would be a Coventry-Nuneaton trip crossing to the Down Main at Foleshill Station having just called at Webster's Sidings. The ICI tank would be from Courtaulds at webster's. The Esso tanks empty from Whitley Wharf, Shell had a depot at Webster's and National Benzole one at Coundon Road, although from the marshalling I suspect the Shell tank might have been in N.B. traffic. Either way not all that improbable.

Mike

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Have just come across this thread. If it is of interest, the chlorine tankers were worked singly, we had chlorine delivered to Reed's Aylesford Paper Mill at New Hythe in them by the local pick up goods (were they still called that in the 1980s?). When I joined Reed's in 1978 the chlorine was delivered in 4w tank wagons of rather ancient appearance - from memory they were through vac piped but unbraked, with spoked wheels. These were replaced around 1980 by the vac fitted bogie tankers. We had to have part of our siding relaid to a wider radius to accommodate them. The drawing supplied to our water and effluent dept at the time (the unloading pipe gantry had to be moved too) was lettered for Murgatroyds. The attached photo shows the last tanker about to be shunted off site, c. 1983, when wagonload freight on the Strood - Paddock Wood line was to be withdrawn. Kent County Council were unhappy about the prospect of bulk liquid chlorine transport to the site by road, so we had to change to an alternative antimicrobial treatment for the 650 000 gph of process water we used. The loco is Ruston Hornsby 165DE, no 416211, delivered 18/10/57.

APM last train 3 coupled up PC and regular driver.jpg

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I've just found this thread through an unrelated search.  Is there a drawing / diagram that shows the key dimensions. length over buffers, pitch of the tank barrel, barrel diameter etc of the ICI tanks?

 

Thanks

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13 minutes ago, The Bigbee Line said:

I've just found this thread through an unrelated search.  Is there a drawing / diagram that shows the key dimensions. length over buffers, pitch of the tank barrel, barrel diameter etc of the ICI tanks?

 

Thanks

The 'Barrowmere' site, with weight diagrams, is probably the best source: I did start looking in there (Book 300, I think).

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On 10/12/2019 at 17:41, Artless Bodger said:

Have just come across this thread. If it is of interest, the chlorine tankers were worked singly, we had chlorine delivered to Reed's Aylesford Paper Mill at New Hythe in them by the local pick up goods (were they still called that in the 1980s?). When I joined Reed's in 1978 the chlorine was delivered in 4w tank wagons of rather ancient appearance - from memory they were through vac piped but unbraked, with spoked wheels. These were replaced around 1980 by the vac fitted bogie tankers. We had to have part of our siding relaid to a wider radius to accommodate them. The drawing supplied to our water and effluent dept at the time (the unloading pipe gantry had to be moved too) was lettered for Murgatroyds. The attached photo shows the last tanker about to be shunted off site, c. 1983, when wagonload freight on the Strood - Paddock Wood line was to be withdrawn. Kent County Council were unhappy about the prospect of bulk liquid chlorine transport to the site by road, so we had to change to an alternative antimicrobial treatment for the 650 000 gph of process water we used. The loco is Ruston Hornsby 165DE, no 416211, delivered 18/10/57.

APM last train 3 coupled up PC and regular driver.jpg

 

Sorry for going OT but the seeing the photo reminded me that sometime after the chlorine traffic finished I made arrangements for 'Hornblower' to be transferred from Reeds Siding to Brookgate Siding on the opposite side of the main line.  Following C&W and guaging exams, the loco ran under its own power via Aylesford to cross over, driven by Reeds driver accompanied by a BR conductor driver (from Gillingham?), sadly nowadays it would almost certainly be quicker and cheaper to effect such a transfer by road. 

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On 12/01/2020 at 10:34, The Bigbee Line said:

I've just found this thread through an unrelated search.  Is there a drawing / diagram that shows the key dimensions. length over buffers, pitch of the tank barrel, barrel diameter etc of the ICI tanks?

 

Thanks

Murgatroyds/BP had 4 distinctive designs of bogie chlorine tank

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/bpcmchlorinetbv

 

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/bpcmchlorinetbb

 

The truly ICI ones disappeared a lot earlier https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/iciunfittank  and were for Caustic Soda.

ICI used 4 wheel tank wagons for chlorine.

 

One type is illustrated in

Fidczuk, Peter (2007) Gas by Rail Part 3: Murgatroyd’s. Railway Archive No. 15 p25 – 42 + back cover.

Drawing – diagram of bogie tank BPCM770xx series liquid chlorine

 

Paul

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12 minutes ago, hmrspaul said:

Murgatroyds/BP had 4 distinctive designs of bogie chlorine tank

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/bpcmchlorinetbv

 

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/bpcmchlorinetbb

 

The truly ICI ones disappeared a lot earlier https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/iciunfittank  and were for Caustic Soda.

ICI used 4 wheel tank wagons for chlorine.

 

One type is illustrated in

Fidczuk, Peter (2007) Gas by Rail Part 3: Murgatroyd’s. Railway Archive No. 15 p25 – 42 + back cover.

Drawing – diagram of bogie tank BPCM770xx series liquid chlorine

 

Paul

Paul

 

I am after some key dimensions for the tank linked https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/iciunfittank

 

Will a download give any detail to show any dimensions?

 

Thanks

 

Ernie

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26 minutes ago, The Bigbee Line said:

Paul

 

I am after some key dimensions for the tank linked https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/iciunfittank

 

Will a download give any detail to show any dimensions?

 

Thanks

 

Ernie

No

 

We measured the grounded tank in Rugby, but I don't know if I have a photocopy of the field drawing. I'm thousands of miles from my library, ask me beginning of February via email [email protected]

Pura Vida

Paul

 

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