Radio Control + Sound?

[davetheroad]

Noting that the Deltang rx has the ability to outer the commands, what are people's thoughts on another board which has an ad card and can transmit via Bluetooth, paired to Bluetooth speakers under the layout? I'm not sure how well the 'proximity' feature of Bluetooth speakers works, and also gather that Bluetooth speakers only accept sound from one source at a time?

 

Can you clarify this? What is an AD board? Do you mean a Bluetooth transmitter board connected to the Deltang board on the loco and this board transmits the commands to the Bluetooth speaker which I presume has the sound files installed'

 

Instead you could just have another static Deltang Rx bound to the same selecta position on the Tx. Getting expensive though.

 

I don't know yet but I presume the Bluerail board will only give sound for the loco currently selected so for say 4 locos in steam I would need 4 smart devices. Maybe doable if second hand smart devices are available,

 

Thinks - these sounds are not stereo but the smart device outputs stereo sound? 2 channels!.

[Robin2]

If the speakers are under the baseboard there seems no reason to generate the sound in the loco. The controller will know what speed the loco is commanded to move at and that info can be used to modify a baseboard-mounted sound system.

 

If the controller (which might be a phone or tablet) is controlling the trains via a PC then the PC can do all the sound stuff very easily.

 

...R

[SimonME46]

Sorry gents, I think I just meant an additional board. I don't recall finding a specific Bluetooth board.

 

I much prefer the way Robin thinks. No inboard sound will ever match the bass response of a real sound system.

 

What about using the JMRI VSD as a basis, and somehow get the control inputs to it (eg via the infrared output from the Deltang Rx?) that way you also get the load from the motor, and perhaps actual motor speed (rotary encoder or similar) to time exhaust beats. Agreed that some form of computer would be involved for the sound generation.

[SimonME46]

I'm looking further into JMRI.

 

On the Jmri yahoo group

 

the new JMRI 4.3.7 test version there are some scripts to permit communication between JMRI computer and networked devices using TCP/IP sockets.The goal of the project is to control Raspberry Pis and Arduinos in a standard way using JMRI.Each device may be seen as a stationary decoder but instead of using DCC, LOCONET, NCE or any other railroad connection/protocol, they communicate with JMRI computer using WiFi on the local area network (LAN).All the files are in <appDir>/jython/IoT directory.Read the README.txt file as a starting point.If you have any questions, please feel free to ask on this group.

So could we use a Deltang device as an arduino (per Robin2's Deltino conversion), to have the BPRC aspect, and access all the JMRI goodness? Such as automation/route setting etc.

 

I note that the virtual sound decoder (VSD) is in beta. I think it uses OpenAL as the engine, which enables 3D positioning of the sound. However this is the right price (donation) and more advanced and integrated than a start from scratch option. I do think 2 way communication would be a good idea, to give feedback in motor load as this would trigger the 'accelerate' sounds, even at constant speed, e.g. A gradient even though the loco price is decelerating, it is working hard.

 

Position feedback is required, perhaps this could be from the Deltang IR transmitter, or some of the standard JMRI feedback mechanisms. I think I've seen barcode scanners and rfid options!

 

Throttles could be gamepads potentially, reconstructed to be more like locomotive controls.

[Robin2]

So could we use a Deltang device as an arduino (per Robin2's Deltino conversion), to have the BPRC aspect, and access all the JMRI goodness? Such as automation/route setting etc.

I suspect that should be possible - assuming JMRI could send data to (say) an RPi and the RPi sends data to the "Arduino".

 

But I have not studied JMRI and it may be that they only allow that system to work for things that would normally be stationary.

 

On the other hand, I presume the JMRI code can be hacked in any way that you want.

 

...R

[SimonME46]

Thanks Robin and Simon. I'll keep doing some research. I haven't done any coding, always had geeks for that. Ah well!

 

I also noted that I can use a smartphone with JMRI, and use a game pad paired to the smartphone, so that's another easy 'off the shelf' route.

 

I'm pondering the 7.1 speaker set up. Given that my layout is a terminus, I could direct speakers towards the bank, with baffles. This if you were at the station end, you'd hear the loco depart, followed by the sound of the carriages. Whereas onboard sound is constant loco volume only. Conversely. Standing by the exit, you could hear the loco getting louder as it approached, and then the same effect.

[SimonME46]

I want the same things, except I don't want the crap sounds from a 28mm tweeter, sealed enclosure or not. And I want the sound to change so that after the loco has passed, I hear the carriages.

 

I've thought about your simple solution - just use the Deltang gear as sold right now to feed D.C. Straight into a ESU decoders that I already have. Ta-da. No stuffing around, and most of the sound functions are gimmicks anyway. I'll probably do this as a short term solution. It would allow me to control 12 locos.

 

Like you, I'm not looking at using JMRI for route setting or automation (although the fiddleyard....hmm..). I've got my Modratec interlocked lever frame all set to go. I plan on making my own controllers which are more locomotive like than the ZTC ones (another project for my laser cutter). I'm thinking a 5" gauge stanier cab for example, using the hacked about guts from a game controller, paired to my iPhone.

 

I'm hoping JMRI could do the things you talk about. I control the locos using my iPhone which is paired to my loco cab. Nice wireless interface for selecting any loco I want to drive. Rpi x 2 talks to lots of deltino equipped locos and a 7.1 sound system. Deltinos sit in the coal space, and charge via a 3.5mm stereo jack somewhere real subtle. Locos never get handled. I don't need to pay £££ for every stanier loco that I build to have a decoder with the same sound profile on it.

 

I'm not keen on DCC - I'm now sitting on a bunch of likely superseded esuloksound 3.5 which I would need to send off to get reblown. The tam valley stuff is not paired, so would be subject to radio interference as I understand it. Let alone the cost per loco, which climbs really quickly, and all gets superseded, or simply doesn't do stuff like control servos.

 

Only downside is VSD is only half developed, and I'd need to make my own sound projects. But then I'm retired both aspects interest me.

[SimonME46]

We are on very similar paths. Paul Chetter certainly hasn't received he recognition he deserves, and it will be hard to get the same results out of VSD.

 

A deltino is the Deltang receiver but Robin2 spotted that it is an Atmega328 on board, so worked with DavidT to make it an arduino device. Robin coined the name Deltino, being a combination of Arduino and Deltang. I like the option as The Deltang package is ideal, and if it is an arduino, then open source all the way.

 

I'm pondering rotary encoder/optical encoder as a way of measuring wheel speed and direction of rotation. This could be used to accurately play exhaust beats and combined with some reporting device (rfid/barcode scanner) at the exit/entry from the fiddle yard, the position on the x-axis could be determined. The reporting device in this instance could also be a trigger to turn on/off sound.

[Robin2]

I'm pondering rotary encoder/optical encoder as a way of measuring wheel speed and direction of rotation.

I am experimenting (in 00 Gauge) with an optical detector (QRE1113) to measure the speed of the motor and count the rotations with two related objectives. {A} Being able to specify the speed of the loco (rather than the power for the motor) and {B} being able to tell the loco to move a specific distance (number of revolutions).

 

I am using an nRF24L01+ wireless transceiver and Atmega Attiny1634 (bigger than the Deltino but much cheaper). But I suspect something similar could be done with the Deltino.

 

Reading a rotary encoder can be hard work for the microprocessor - especially if it is rotating quickly or has a lot of pulses per revolution. My setup just detects a blob of white paint every revolution.

 

...R

[SimonME46]

i have no idea about this, but I'm guessing by using a dedicated microprocessor, the Deltino processor wouldn't get bogged down. The attiny 1634 could report the calculated values (speed/revcount) to the Deltino, or with the dedicated transceiver, straight back to the main computer running the control software?

[Robin2]

i have no idea about this, but I'm guessing by using a dedicated microprocessor, the Deltino processor wouldn't get bogged down. The attiny 1634 could report the calculated values (speed/revcount) to the Deltino, or with the dedicated transceiver, straight back to the main computer running the control software?

You could, of course, add an extra microprocessor to read the output from an encoder. However I can't work with small SMD components and chips of the size I can work with (the 1634 is a challenge) take up a lot of space in an OO Gauge loco.

 

My Attiny / nRF24 is an alternative to a Deltino, not a supplement.

 

...R

[SimonME46]

You could, of course, add an extra microprocessor to read the output from an encoder. However I can't work with small SMD components and chips of the size I can work with (the 1634 is a challenge) take up a lot of space in an OO Gauge loco.

 

My Attiny / nRF24 is an alternative to a Deltino, not a supplement.

 

...R

Moving on to the next level!

 

May I ask, the sketch you created for the 'Deltino', I'm assuming that wasn't DCC compliant? I'm thinking that the JMRI VSD is a key component for my solution, and that takes me down a DCC route. Im at risk of cross posting (I've just posted on DCC specifics in the D.C. Forum)...I'm finally home after 3 weeks on the road, so have downloaded JMRI.

[Robin2]

May I ask, the sketch you created for the 'Deltino', I'm assuming that wasn't DCC compliant?

You are quite correct.

 

It is perfectly feasible to write a DCC decoder (or encoder) program for an Arduino and I see no reason why that could not be done on a Deltino. Just beware that, because of its small size, the Deltino does not expose all of the Atmega 328 I/O pins.

 

...R

[Switcher102]

Has anyone heard of a company called Games on Track? It looks to me that they have the answer.

 

I have just found this thread, this is my problem aswell, I have converted to BPRC (definitely the future for model railways in my opinion) but, a loco that does not make an appropriate sound is a bit of a strange beast, and being a fan of DCC it seems that converting DCC to radio control is the way to go. They have done it in the USA, trouble is their frequencies are illegal over here.

 

Does anyone deal with DCC Supplies? They deal with Games on Track and they produce an interesting gadget called a  GT-Xcontrol Loco:-

 

http://en.shop.gamesontrack.dk/track-scale-0/1/g-radio-control-and-positioning.aspx

 

The frequencies they use are legal over here. They miss out one of the most important pieces of information on their webs site .... dimensions .... but I emailed them and this was the important part of their reply:-

 

"The GT-Xcontrol fits in O and G-scale locos …….

The dimensions are: 45x24x12 mm

They generate 3-5 A DCC each of them.

Yes we make smaller for N and H0, they include a decoder as well, so you do not need that. In the first place without Sound. But it will come later."

 

"The small N and H0 with decoder is 28x12x4 mm generates 1,2 A Max."

 

 

So, it's looking mighty interesting I think. I look forward to discussing further with DCC Supplies at the Warley Show and possibly buying one.

 

 

I presume folks know about Protocab:- https://www.protocab.com/welcome

 

They don't use DCC and at the moment they don't produce sound (they aim to) but I think they have great potential for further development and I strongly recommend they be encouraged in their efforts. They will be producing the whole package, the LiPo batteries with that all important protection, and they aim for hands free operation i.e. light touch switches, recharging via induction. It's good to have more than one type of radio or wireless control system on the market I think.

 

Rich

[Robin2]

but, a loco that does not make an appropriate sound is a bit of a strange beast,

I prefer the idea of baseboard mounted sound where you can have big bass speakers. IMHO sound does not scale.

 

...R

[Switcher102]

I prefer the idea of baseboard mounted sound where you can have big bass speakers. IMHO sound does not scale.

 

...R

 

I know what you mean, just as you cannot scale gravity. I hate tinny toy like sounds. Haven't properly got into sound yet but when I do start experimenting I will try every which way I can to get enough base from inside the locomotive itself. Really do not like that idea of separate speakers.

[davetheroad]

Has anyone heard of a company called Games on Track? It looks to me that they have the answer.

 

I have just found this thread, this is my problem aswell, I have converted to BPRC (definitely the future for model railways in my opinion) but, a loco that does not make an appropriate sound is a bit of a strange beast, and being a fan of DCC it seems that converting DCC to radio control is the way to go. They have done it in the USA, trouble is their frequencies are illegal over here.

 

Does anyone deal with DCC Supplies? They deal with Games on Track and they produce an interesting gadget called a  GT-Xcontrol Loco:-

 

http://en.shop.gamesontrack.dk/track-scale-0/1/g-radio-control-and-positioning.aspx

 

The frequencies they use are legal over here. They miss out one of the most important pieces of information on their webs site .... dimensions .... but I emailed them and this was the important part of their reply:-

 

"The GT-Xcontrol fits in O and G-scale locos …….

The dimensions are: 45x24x12 mm

They generate 3-5 A DCC each of them.

Yes we make smaller for N and H0, they include a decoder as well, so you do not need that. In the first place without Sound. But it will come later."

 

"The small N and H0 with decoder is 28x12x4 mm generates 1,2 A Max."

 

 

So, it's looking mighty interesting I think. I look forward to discussing further with DCC Supplies at the Warley Show and possibly buying one.

 

 

I presume folks know about Protocab:- https://www.protocab.com/welcome

 

They don't use DCC and at the moment they don't produce sound (they aim to) but I think they have great potential for further development and I strongly recommend they be encouraged in their efforts. They will be producing the whole package, the LiPo batteries with that all important protection, and they aim for hands free operation i.e. light touch switches, recharging via induction. It's good to have more than one type of radio or wireless control system on the market I think.

 

Rich

Are not their products extremely expensive?  A starter pack for 1 locomotive costs £250.

 

Check out Deltang too. Much cheaper.

 

Then we have BlueRail with their Bluetooth boards controlled by an App on a smartphone or tablet. Again cheaper.

[SimonME46]

You are quite correct.

 

It is perfectly feasible to write a DCC decoder (or encoder) program for an Arduino and I see no reason why that could not be done on a Deltino. Just beware that, because of its small size, the Deltino does not expose all of the Atmega 328 I/O pins.

 

...R

I think I'm onto something for the first part of the puzzle - getting something out of JMRI via wi-fi. I think the DCC++ 'hardware' support includes the option of communication with an arduino over wifi. http://jmri.sourceforge.net/help/en/html/hardware/dccpp/index.shtml

 

So a solution could be to look at the DCC++ base station code, and see if that can be truncated so it doesn't go creating the AC signal and we just go straight to the decoder aspect (which might be in an arduino decoder sketch)

[Switcher102]

Are not their products extremely expensive?  A starter pack for 1 locomotive costs £250.

 

Check out Deltang too. Much cheaper.

 

Then we have BlueRail with their Bluetooth boards controlled by an App on a smartphone or tablet. Again cheaper.

 

Well, it is not always the best policy to go for the cheapest when thinking long term.  Actually I didn't realise it cost that much as I bought their pilot series at a discount because I pre ordered. New products are always expensive to start with but if they become popular they can bring down the price.  

 

One of the BIG problems I find with radio control is sorting out Lipo batteries and charging. Lipos give me the willies. It is recommeded that you always remove them when recharging, even if they have protection circuits, which is not something you want to be doing in model railways. I have heard of people who use Lipos and do not remove them when recharging and have had no problems but I'm still not sure about the little blighters. It was only in the news recently about Samsung mobiles going on fire. Protocab provide the batteries and give additional protection aswell as the battery's own protection circuits. For me, that is a BIG advantage, the last thing you want is a locomotive bursting into flames.

 

Also, for me their hands free mind set is a BIG boon, I hate touching my stock once it's on track. Even if something derails I try to rerail it as prototypically as possible. The light touch switch and future induction charging via the track is a big insentive for me. I wouldn't know how to go about producing an induction charging set up, one that's safe that is.

 

You can adjust settings via the controller and they produce upgrades every so often and your controller and the unit in your locomotive can be easily upgraded over the Internet. With Protocab I think they are a good investment for the future (British aswell, at the moment anyway, depending on what Scotland get up to in the future), they also aim to use smart phones for control, and have been doing so in their exhibition demonstrations (don't like a touch screen throttle myself) and their locomotive control units (LCUs) will in future have the ability to feed back information to the controller (No, I'm not on commission:)

 

Bluerail is something I've only read about fairly recently and haven't got into it yet.

 

l have bought DelTang equipment and am very much enjoying it. In fact I've only recently bought another receiver from them, I think DelTang produce some great products and at very reasonable prices. Haven't had much luck altering settings via the computer yet, I'll have to work harder at that, perhaps post on this board about it, I really want to adjust the PWM settings.

[Robin2]

I think I'm onto something for the first part of the puzzle - getting something out of JMRI via wi-fi. I think the DCC++ 'hardware' support includes the option of communication with an arduino over wifi. http://jmri.sourceforge.net/help/en/html/hardware/dccpp/index.shtml

 

So a solution could be to look at the DCC++ base station code, and see if that can be truncated so it doesn't go creating the AC signal and we just go straight to the decoder aspect (which might be in an arduino decoder sketch)

If that is aimed at me I'm afraid I don't know enough about JMRI to make sense of it.

 

...R

[davetheroad]

Well, it is not always the best policy to go for the cheapest when thinking long term.  Actually I didn't realise it cost that much as I bought their pilot series at a discount because I pre ordered. New products are always expensive to start with but if they become popular they can bring down the price.  

 

One of the BIG problems I find with radio control is sorting out Lipo batteries and charging. Lipos give me the willies. It is recommeded that you always remove them when recharging, even if they have protection circuits, which is not something you want to be doing in model railways. I have heard of people who use Lipos and do not remove them when recharging and have had no problems but I'm still not sure about the little blighters. It was only in the news recently about Samsung mobiles going on fire. Protocab provide the batteries and give additional protection aswell as the battery's own protection circuits. For me, that is a BIG advantage, the last thing you want is a locomotive bursting into flames.

 

Also, for me their hands free mind set is a BIG boon, I hate touching my stock once it's on track. Even if something derails I try to rerail it as prototypically as possible. The light touch switch and future induction charging via the track is a big insentive for me. I wouldn't know how to go about producing an induction charging set up, one that's safe that is.

 

You can adjust settings via the controller and they produce upgrades every so often and your controller and the unit in your locomotive can be easily upgraded over the Internet. With Protocab I think they are a good investment for the future (British aswell, at the moment anyway, depending on what Scotland get up to in the future), they also aim to use smart phones for control, and have been doing so in their exhibition demonstrations (don't like a touch screen throttle myself) and their locomotive control units (LCUs) will in future have the ability to feed back information to the controller (No, I'm not on commission:)

 

Bluerail is something I've only read about fairly recently and haven't got into it yet.

 

l have bought DelTang equipment and am very much enjoying it. In fact I've only recently bought another receiver from them, I think DelTang produce some great products and at very reasonable prices. Haven't had much luck altering settings via the computer yet, I'll have to work harder at that, perhaps post on this board about it, I really want to adjust the PWM settings.

 

It seems to me that Protocab will have to work hard to deliver a viable product. Apparently the existing controller allows for one loco 'in steam' which is pretty useless if you want several 'in steam'. I read elsewhere that they are introducing a new controller which will allow two locos 'in steam'. This is not good enough, my Deltang controller at half the price can have 12 locos 'in steam'. They are also introducing a 'concentrator'? It looks as if they are trying to lock users into their system. I don't think that is a viable business model. If other manufacturers offer superior products at cheaper prices I can't see Protocab prospering.

 

Don't panic about batteries, batteries used for model railways are not stressed like those used for model planes etc. If you have over charge protection and over discharge protection you should be OK. I have 30+ locos converted and only had one failure. A battery got hot on charging so I followed the advice and 'retired' it. I also remove my batteries for charging. My chargers take care of the over charging and the Deltang receiver handles over discharge protection. I believe the original Samsung problem was a batch of batteries that were slightly too large and the assembler just squeezed them into the available space.

 

Deltang programming is a bit of a black art! but I think I have become comfortable with it. I use coolterm on windows 8 with a Deltang Prog4.

 

I have been trying a blurail board and while the app is great for setting up the loco, fine tuning etc in my opinion it is not a good interface for controlling a loco. I like the tactile feedback of a traditional knob and with my Deltang throttle I can carry it in one hand and operate the throttle with my thumb while looking at the train. You can control a bluerail board via a Bluetooth game controller and checking on amazon there are dozens of different types available including one handed versions.

[Switcher102]

Davetheroad quote:- "Apparently the existing controller allows for one loco 'in steam' which is pretty useless if you want several 'in steam'."

I found it scary driving more than one locomotive at a time, especially when my controllers are set with permanent inertia and only a realistic emergency stop available. Scary enough when just driving one. I'd need to have one loco on a 'safe' roundy roundy in order to drive another the same time. Actually, I have operated on a huge O gauge layout to a timetable and watched another being operated and at no time has an operator ever driven more than one locomotive at a time with one controller, or even with two controllers (they couldn't drive from one controller with their DC controllers anyway), but I'm still not sure why they would need to anyway, or if they practically could. Aren't us men supposed to be no good at multi tasking

I can understand that when Protocab develop sound they will then need more than one locomotive to be operable from one controller at the same time (nine locomotives can be asigned to their controller but not driven the same time) because otherwise you would have to turn off the sound of a steamer idling in order to drive another locomotive. As far as I know there is no way of doing that in the real world. The same for diesels, when that engine's started it stays on for the duration, so I agree it should be available, eventually, for that reason and for roundy roundys. Give them time, they've only just started.

Davetheroad quote:- "It looks as if they are trying to lock users into their system"

That did put me off them at first. Why don't they produce a system that can use the existing decoders on the market? Well, some technical explanation was given about making the system more secure, I have no idea if their system is more secure but I am willing to go along with it, there are advantages to getting involved with a new company, they are more keen to please and their system can be more easily moulded at the start for your needs and future development. They have taken on some of my ideas, and other's ideas, they have listened and acted. Once a system is already developed it can be more difficult to change. I think their system has good scope for future expansion, and it's good to have another wireless control system on the market.

Davetheroad quote:- "I also remove my batteries for charging"

No, this would not work for me. Unless you can find a way to remove batteries that does not ruin the realism.

Davetheroad quote:- "Deltang programming is a bit of a black art! but I think I have become comfortable with it. I use coolterm on windows 8 with a Deltang Prog4"

Yes, I've got Prog4 and downloaded Coolterm but things did not happen as instructed. I'll have another go sometime. Bluetooth and smart phones are a bit of a black art for me at the moment.

Anyway, the subject of this thread is sound. Do you think Deltang will ever get into sound? What about the Games on Track unit I linked?

Rich

[Robin2]

 

trying to lock users into their system

This is currently true of many systems.

 

If people have to get into programming, then it will be a big turn off for most.

Building an Open Source alternative is an effective way to counteract commercial lock-in and may even discourage commericial interest from 100% lock in.

 

But it requires input from people who are prepared to "get into programming"

 

As long as model railway enthusiasts reject programming they will remain at the mercy of commercial interests.

 

...R

[Switcher102]

Simon quote:- "I don't remove the battery from my iphone or ipad, and don't really see the need except for normal maintenance/battery replacement (they do die, eventually).
Properly protected, there should be no problems."

 

Yes, properly protected they are fine, and your iPhone manufacturer has made sure they are as safe possible. How do we, as individuals, buy a  Lipo battery and place it in our model and make sure it is so safe we can leave them in there when recharging? There is surprisingly little help out there on this important safety issue, or it is conflicting.

 

Simon quote:- "If people have to get into programming, then it will be a big turn off for most."

 

Programming should be for additional features. The DelTang receiver is working fine in my locomotive, it is driving it just like it used to drive when it was track fed, I just want to see if I can improve the performance by altering the PWM. Not sure whether that comes under programming, it's altering settings.

 

Simon quote:- "I asked Dave a couple of years ago, and he wasn't particularly interested in it then. He may be now, he may not be.
Why not ask him directly, you will be more likely to get the true picture?"

 

I'm pretty sure I did over a year ago now and I got the same answer.  I'll ask again sometime.

 

Simon quote:-  "It looked quite expensive, and also, is not another example of a proprietary system which will tie you in?"

 

I'll find out more when I discuss with DCC Supplies at Warley. I understood the O gauge version talked to existing decoders but it seems the proposed smaller ones only talk to their own decoder. I don't know enough about electronics to be even understanding the other discussions in this thread about OpenAL, JMRI and Sprogs and whatnot. I bought a little book on the Arduino a few years ago but then it got into computer language and it didn't explain it, it assumed you understood C code or whatever it was, but I'm not giving up on it.

 

[Robin2]

Insisting that modellers get into programming is just elitist snobbery.

I have not suggested anything of the sort. I was just trying to discourage an opposite "snobbery" in which modellers refuse to have anything to do with programming because steam engines never needed it.

 

And I certainly did not mean that every modeller should become a programmer. But if NO model train person is prepared to help build an Open Source wireless system then ALL modellers will be at the mercy of commercial interests.

 

...R