CKPR Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 just back from another lovely week in North West Wales (day trip from Pwllheli to Barmouth today) and was wondering what is or was available by way of kits for Cambrian coaching stock in 4mm. I know that D&S and Trevor Charlton did some kits but have there been any others, including anything by the the very rare manufacturers such as Red Rose / Philip Millard or from the Welsh Railways Circle ? Also, are there any easy conversions/ re-paints or second-hand coaches from other companies that a neophyte Cambrian modeller should know about ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium corneliuslundie Posted January 2, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 2, 2015 According to gwr.org.uk there are some 4mm kits from Kemilway (Peter K) and some 7mm kits from Dragon Models. There have been kits from D&S (4mm) and Redcraft (4 and 7mm) but they are listed as NLA. Why not HMRS Cambrian steward via the website? The WRRC does not do any kits, but has in the pipeline for about two or three years time a book of Cambrian drawings. It used to be possible to buy the Mike Lloyd drawings on which it will be based but I don't think they are available any longer. I have a Trevor Charlton list but as far as I know they are no longer available. And that's what gwr.org.uk confirms. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CKPR Posted January 3, 2015 Author Share Posted January 3, 2015 Thanks - I'd forgotten about the Peter K kits, which might be just what I'm looking for (albeit not in the quick and easy category !) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium corneliuslundie Posted January 3, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 3, 2015 I have some of the TC Rhymney kits though I have not tried soldering them. Six are made up as far as having the interiors inserted in the basic bodies, but no underframes yet. The "kits" are just sides and ends plus duckets for the brakes. One issue is going to be flattening some of the ends which incorrectly have tumblehomes. Back on topic. I couldn't find the Cambrian carriages on the Dragon Models website, only the full brake, but they are 7mm anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CKPR Posted January 3, 2015 Author Share Posted January 3, 2015 Trevor Charlton died a few years back, now. He was an interesting character (a session drummer who was often in the "house band" on "Pebble Mill at One") and learned to produce the sides whilst a printer's apprentice: they were etched on one side only, with the photo exposure produced in his loft. Once the panelling was etched, he then cut and filed the window apertures by hand, using a piercing saw and needle files - I recall a couple of lengthy conversations with him during the 90s. The zinc was a ######* to solder, though: one had to scratch at it with the tip of the iron to get it tinned, and it was possible to melt the zinc whilst doing this (ask me how I know...!) I understand that his collection of drawings and artwork were acquired by the ScaleFour Society. Not sure what they can do with the artwork, though, as it is only half of what would be required for etching from both sides. Most of the drawings had appeared in the model press, although some had been sent to him privately. Other than some of the older drawings being hard to find nowadays, most of the information is available, at least on the second-hand book and magazine market. As an alternative to etching, there is always styrene sheet. Add in a craft knife, a couple of files etc, and David Jenkinson's book, and you can produce anything you need. (I suggest you start off with a small 3" square of 10 thou plastic card, and practice making out and cutting the "lace doily".) Time is the biggest cost. *Edit: a legal term is apparently a naughty word. I've got a fair few Trevor Charlton coaches (M&CR and FR) and I completely agree about the problem in soldering the zinc and the risk of melting it as I did exactly this myself and had to bodge in a plasticard window pillar. I ended up using Carrs 'black label' flux as intended for soldering steel and this seemed to work reasonably. As for making coaches in styrene, I constructed an M&CR horse box using the doily approach many years ago and although that turned out fine, the thought of repeating it over several rakes of coaches led me to commission the rest of my coaches from Trevor Charlton ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flymo748 Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Trevor Charlton died a few years back, now. He was an interesting character (a session drummer who was often in the "house band" on "Pebble Mill at One") and learned to produce the sides whilst a printer's apprentice: they were etched on one side only, with the photo exposure produced in his loft. Once the panelling was etched, he then cut and filed the window apertures by hand, using a piercing saw and needle files - I recall a couple of lengthy conversations with him during the 90s. The zinc was a ######* to solder, though: one had to scratch at it with the tip of the iron to get it tinned, and it was possible to melt the zinc whilst doing this (ask me how I know...!) I understand that his collection of drawings and artwork were acquired by the ScaleFour Society. Not sure what they can do with the artwork, though, as it is only half of what would be required for etching from both sides. Hi Simon, The Scalefour Society has many resources, yet this is the first that I've heard of us holding the Trevor Charlton material. Are you aware of the circumstances when and how this acquisition may have taken place? If it turned out that there was reference material available, we would probably be looking to ensure that it was available to members. If the artwork for kits was usable, given that it was based on an old and unusual technology, then production of limited runs of kits could be a possibility. However I emphasise again that I don't think that this is the case. I'd be delighted to here more of the story though. Cheers Paul Willis Scalefour Society Deputy Chairman Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium corneliuslundie Posted January 4, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 4, 2015 I don't know about the others, byt the RR carriages were done from HMRS drawings, according to Trevor when I asked him the provenance (there is a problem identifying one). But Trevor's kit list generally gives the source. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CKPR Posted January 4, 2015 Author Share Posted January 4, 2015 just back from another lovely week in North West Wales (day trip from Pwllheli to Barmouth today) and was wondering what is or was available by way of kits for Cambrian coaching stock in 4mm. I know that D&S and Trevor Charlton did some kits but have there been any others, including anything by the the very rare manufacturers such as Red Rose / Philip Millard or from the Welsh Railways Circle ? Also, are there any easy conversions/ re-paints or second-hand coaches from other companies that a neophyte Cambrian modeller should know about ? Answering my own question - http://www.gwr.org.uk/nocamrys2.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quarryscapes Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Smallbrook Studio do a coach body, not sure exactly which one it is mind. I have a luggage van body available through Shapeways. I have a D&S Bogie carriage waiting to be built, although it's not really of much use to me since it's a through coach for working over the LNWR, hardly branch line material! They come up on ebay from time to time and fetch a stupid price. Looks to be a very involved build, hence why I have yet to touch it. I don't think much can be bashed from other sources for strict accuracies, though I must confess I find all victorian 4 and 6 wheel stock to be pretty much identical to my eye! The Hornby 4 wheeler does look remarkably like a 4 wheeler belonging to the Cambrian it has to be said! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quarryscapes Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Just to add, I'm waiting to hear back from Kemilway regarding current stock of some Cambrian items myself, haven't had a response yet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Miles Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Richard Evans (aka grumpy) is planning to released some etched kits for Cambrian 4 wheelers. I have seen the artwork so he must be close to a production run. They will be marketed under the name of Camkits. I would give you his email but I couldn't put up with his response. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CKPR Posted January 5, 2015 Author Share Posted January 5, 2015 Smallbrook Studio do a coach body, not sure exactly which one it is mind. I have a luggage van body available through Shapeways. I have a D&S Bogie carriage waiting to be built, although it's not really of much use to me since it's a through coach for working over the LNWR, hardly branch line material! They come up on ebay from time to time and fetch a stupid price. Looks to be a very involved build, hence why I have yet to touch it. I don't think much can be bashed from other sources for strict accuracies, though I must confess I find all victorian 4 and 6 wheel stock to be pretty much identical to my eye! The Hornby 4 wheeler does look remarkably like a 4 wheeler belonging to the Cambrian it has to be said! When I started modelling the M&CR (about 30 yrs ago...), I discovered that the Ratio MR low roof composite was a dead ringer for an M&CR tri-compo if the ends were changed to remove the MR tuck in so I was hoping for a similar stroke of luck ! The Hornby 4w coach is based on an 1880-90s Somerset & Dorset all 1st IIRC so most definitely Victorian. Richard Evans (aka grumpy) is planning to released some etched kits for Cambrian 4 wheelers. I have seen the artwork so he must be close to a production run. They will be marketed under the name of Camkits. I would give you his email but I couldn't put up with his response. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium corneliuslundie Posted January 5, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 5, 2015 This page from Trevor Charlton's list gives the Cambrian carriages and the sources. I am not sure about those marked HMRS as there are about 30 drawings currently listed. Of course it is all a bit academic. Jonathan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ChrisN Posted January 9, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 9, 2015 I have three Kemilway six wheelers and although I am not too familiar with etched kits they do not look that easy to build. I have decided that probably they will be better off with a Brassmasters cleminson wheelbase as I was not even sure how the wheels should be attached. I understand from an old thread on the RMWeb archive that the Hornby 4 wheelers sit too high but that the cleaning coach is just right. Using this thread I have converted one into a first class coach. See my link on my signature and the link to the thread and reference to whose idea it was is in there fairly early on. I think that from the side the ratio four wheelers could pass for Cambrian ones but they are elliptical not single arc. However, it must be possible to convert them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium NCB Posted January 20, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 20, 2016 The D&S Cambrian kits are OK if you can get hold of them. D&S reduced them to 3mm for the 3mm Society. I've built the brake/3rd in GWR condition. The Cambrian converted these from saloon composites somewhere around 1911, the saloon and toilet becoming the brake part. They were generally run in pairs as a sort of Cambrian pre-cursor to the GWR B-sets, being used on lightly used lines like the Mid Wales. Here's a pic: It was only after building it that I realised that I'd forgotten to put the vents above the doors. Doh! I've another one of these and two composites yet to build. I'd like to do them in Cambrian livery but the lack of suitable transfers is a bit off-putting. Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcD Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 We do 5 Cambrian coaches in 7mm: Metropolitan brake 3rd; Metropolitan all 3rd; Metropolitan Lug 3rd; Ashbury comp and Ashbury brake 3rd. They are available as kits or ready to run. they are currently not available in 4mm but they can be if there is a demand. Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ChrisN Posted January 23, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 23, 2016 We do 5 Cambrian coaches in 7mm: Metropolitan brake 3rd; Metropolitan all 3rd; Metropolitan Lug 3rd; Ashbury comp and Ashbury brake 3rd. They are available as kits or ready to run. they are currently not available in 4mm but they can be if there is a demand. Marc I would certainly be interested in 4mm kits. The Metropolitan coaches are a must as they lasted on the Dolgelley branch past the period I am modelling. I did wonder if I would have to scratch build which I will have to do if there is nothing else available. I could find no pictures of your Ashbury, are they 4 or 6 wheelers? I would only probably need one of each if they are 4 wheelers, so I will not make you rich. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcD Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 Yes all 5 coaches are the same length and are 4 wheeled. If there is the demand the I will consider doing them in 4mm. I will let you know. I would need orders for at least 5 of each before I would think of committing to tooling. Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ChrisN Posted January 23, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 23, 2016 Yes all 5 coaches are the same length and are 4 wheeled. If there is the demand the I will consider doing them in 4mm. I will let you know. I would need orders for at least 5 of each before I would think of committing to tooling. Marc Thanks, I do understand that there is an economic limit. I may be able to run to one or two more. Let me know if there begins to be an interest. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quarryscapes Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 Thanks, I do understand that there is an economic limit. I may be able to run to one or two more. Let me know if there begins to be an interest. Well you can put me down for one of each at least. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium corneliuslundie Posted January 31, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 31, 2016 I'm sure a note in the WRRC Newsletter would be useful in gauging response. Do you have the contact details? If not send me something and I will pass it on. Jonathan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Aren't the Met Ashbury carriages bogie mounted ones? http://www.ltmcollection.org/museum/object/link.html?_IXMAXHITS_=1&IXinv=1981/539&IXexpand=service http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/67179-metropolitan-railway-coaches/ London Road Models have had a set of three in their piece list for many years; http://traders.scalefour.org/LondonRoadModels/carriages/metropolitan-rlwy-carriage/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ChrisN Posted February 9, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 9, 2016 Aren't the Met Ashbury carriages bogie mounted ones? http://www.ltmcollection.org/museum/object/link.html?_IXMAXHITS_=1&IXinv=1981/539&IXexpand=service http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/67179-metropolitan-railway-coaches/ London Road Models have had a set of three in their piece list for many years; http://traders.scalefour.org/LondonRoadModels/carriages/metropolitan-rlwy-carriage/ The original Ashbury coaches date from the 1860s are 4 and they also built 6 wheelers during the rest of the 19th Century and the Metropolitan Carriage and WagonCompany were building 4 and 6 wheelers during the same time. This company were based in Birmingham and became Metro Cammell. The links you have put up are carriages for the Metropolitan Railway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quarryscapes Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 The D&S Cambrian kits are OK if you can get hold of them. D&S reduced them to 3mm for the 3mm Society. I've built the brake/3rd in GWR condition. The Cambrian converted these from saloon composites somewhere around 1911, the saloon and toilet becoming the brake part. They were generally run in pairs as a sort of Cambrian pre-cursor to the GWR B-sets, being used on lightly used lines like the Mid Wales. Here's a pic: p666.jpg It was only after building it that I realised that I'd forgotten to put the vents above the doors. Doh! I've another one of these and two composites yet to build. I'd like to do them in Cambrian livery but the lack of suitable transfers is a bit off-putting. Nigel That's interesting - would be interested in knowing where the info came from? I've got a couple of D&S ones on the go, I don't like their bogies though so am doing my own. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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