Mid-Cornwall Lines - 1950s Western Region in 00

[Martin S-C]

On 29/06/2021 at 12:27, Stubby47 said:

Given the need for the wagons to be pushed from St Enodoc to Wheal Victoria, how far can such a train be pushed on a line to a siding ?

 

 

On 29/06/2021 at 12:46, St Enodoc said:

Don't know, is the short answer. The long answer is that specific cases were authorised in the Sectional Appendix.

 

If anyone has an earlier Sectional Appendix that they could share information from (or send to a good home...) please feel free to contribute!

Some years ago I built a virtual model of the GW Highworth Branch in Microsoft Train simulator. I picked up a lot of useful information from the very first title Wild Swan ever published, which covered this line.

During the Great War a company of Canadian lumberjacks were brought over to cut down timber in Stanton Park woods which was about 3 miles along the line. The timber was sent off in the round on long bolster wagons to various government departments to be sawn up for the building of barracks, hospitals, aerodrome structures and other temporary buildings in the UK that the military needed to support the war effort in Belgium and France.

A siding was laid in Stanton Great Park which faced towards Swindon. Trains were run loco first from Swindon Transfer Yard a mile up the line to Stratton, the first station on the line where there was a loop but the trains were very often much longer than the loop, so sections of the train were propelled into the two back sidings at Stratton. Parts of the train, which might be up to 15 to 20 wagons were then propelled further along the branch, past Kingsdown Road Junction and up a fairly significant gradient through Stanton Great Park woods. IIRC this grade was about 1 in 50 or 60. The Wild Swan title (again IIRC) stipulated that a guard rode on the leading wagon with flag and whistle and the propelled trains were limited to 5mph.

As the wagons were dropped in the siding and the loco returned to Stratton to collect the next section of the train the lumberjacks (cue Monty Python song) loaded the first block of wagons. When the loco returned with the second section of train it was swapped over in almost exactly the same way as John's clay dries are shunted, although I have no data on where (or if) a brake van was in the train although it presumably was. The tricky part on this section of the line was that the branch past the siding dropped at about 1 in 50 down to Stanton Station and there was a stop board (for pining down brakes on all freights) at the top of this gradient, so empties would have to be shunted down this grade in order to allow the loco to then collect the loaded wagons and drawn them out of the siding. This process was repeated several times with the loaded sections of train stored in the Stratton sidings. Wherever the brake van was, it was finally attached to the end of the full loaded train at Stratton for the mile journey back to Swindon Transfer.

So this propelling operation took place over about 2 miles of 1-engine in steam line but with a much longer rake of wagons than is being shunted here.

In more modern times when the Watlington Branch was truncated into a siding to serve the Portland Cement Works at Chinnor trains were propelled from Princes Risborough. This traffic ran from the closure of freight to Chinnor in 1966 until 1989. Google maps tells me this is about 4 miles of propelling wagons.

[KymN]

On 30/06/2021 at 17:34, St Enodoc said:

...and we've got the Zig-Zag Railway.

 

...and we've got Pichi Richi and Steamranger here in South Australia, so there 

 

 

[chesterfield]

sibling rivalry

[St Enodoc]

Thanks Kym. I hope to ride behind 621 on the Cockle Train in September - last time, the steam loco had failed and we had a diesel instead.

 

I will make it to the Pichi Richi one day but not this year.

[St Enodoc]

On 27/06/2021 at 18:41, St Enodoc said:

I've got something else on order to replace this in the longer term.

The "something else" arrived, more quickly than expected, today - a Hornby R6666 5-plank open in English China Clays livery.

 

Now, there couldn't be much more wrong with the wagon as a scale model - 17'6" body instead of 16'6", 10' wheelbase instead of 9', very chunky underframe detail - but the decoration is lovely. I'll replace the tension lock couplings with dummy three-links, weather and distress the body (my first try, probably following the methods used so successfully by Rob @NHY 581) and add some random "P" numbers from a Modelmasters sheet that I just happen to have.

 

I think that, as a piece of scenery, it will look very nice.

Edited July 2, 2021 by St Enodoc

[Martin S-C]

It bugs the heck out of me that RTR manufacturers don't mass produce a 9ft wagon timber-framed underframe, perhaps with single sided brakes. It would be such a boost to modellers and kit conversion people generally. Yes of course kits are available but an RTR chassis all ready to go would reach a wider market.

Edited July 2, 2021 by Martin S-C

[aardvark]

On 02/07/2021 at 10:42, chesterfield said:

sibling rivalry

 

more like "colonial rivalry".

[KymN]

On 02/07/2021 at 10:13, St Enodoc said:

Thanks Kym. I hope to ride behind 621 on the Cockle Train in September 

 

Of course.  It is part of the pre-convention tour for this year's convention.  621 isn't normally used on the Cockle Train unless special arrangements have been made.  It is usually one of the Rx 4-6-0 locos.  The real gem would have been 520 (in the picture I posted), but this is undergoing a major refit at present.  It is said that Frank Harrison (the SAR CME at the time) saw an illustration of the Pennsy T1 in a trade magazine and said to his senior draftsman 'Draw me one of those'.  The result was the  finest streamliner that Australia has seen.  But enough of the intercolonial rivalry...

[Oldddudders]

19 minutes ago, KymN said:

The real gem would have been 520 (in the picture I posted), but this is undergoing a major refit at present.  It is said that Frank Harrison (the SAR CME at the time) saw an illustration of the Pennsy T1 in a trade magazine and said to his senior draftsman 'Draw me one of those'.  The result was the  finest streamliner that Australia has seen.  

Thankyou. A T1 was exactly the influence I thought I saw. Lucius Beebe credited the T1 with being unable to move without 'burning of Rome smoke effects'. I hope the Oz version was a little less brash. 

[St Enodoc]

Yesterday and today I spent a good few hours working out the alignment of the single line between the curve in front of Wheal Veronica and Treloggan Junction.

 

Because of the relationship between Polperran, Treloggan Junction and Pentowan the location of the triangle itself is fixed, so I played around with graph paper, ruler, pencil, compasses and eraser to find a good route. There needs to be a bit of breathing space between the single line and the far end of Wheal Veronica, so I picked an arbitrary minimum value of 150mm (again) between the centre lines of the single line and the nearest siding, Wheal Veronica No 2. There will be transitions between all the curves and the intervening straights, so I worked with the templates for those too, also making up a new one that I didn't have before (30" radius, 0.5" shift which has a length of just under 19").

 

There also needs to be enough straight (or nearly straight) track between the future overbridge next to Wheal Veronica and Treloggan Junction for the two-coach Indian Queens Halt.

 

Eventually, after several iterations that involved extensive use of the eraser, I came up with an alignment that runs in front of Wheal Veronica with the gap between the tracks widening gradually before a curve to the left, the straight and then another curve to the right approaching Treloggan Junction.

 

Here's the first transition, coming off the long curve. This has a length of about 27" and a shift of 1", which helps to take the single line further away from Wheal Veronica.  There'll be about 200mm of straight track before the start of the next curve.

 

I changed the shiny Hornby wheels on the coal wagon, 490, for some old PC ones, which have a dull, darker, finish. The flanges and treads are too fine for layout operation but they are ideal for static models like this. I also removed the couplings but haven't done anything else to the wagon yet.

 

Finally, I tried the two different ways to shunt Wheal Veronica that we discussed last week. Getting the brake van to the other end at St Enodoc involved far too much messing about, so I won't be doing that. Next I augmented the two short china-clay trains to their final 6-wagon length and added a brake van at the loco end. I had worried that these trains might look a bit silly with two brake vans and only six wagons but as it turned out I don't think they do. 7446 had no trouble with the various moves on the incline either, so I'm pretty sure now that this will be the way we will go.

 

 

Here are SC2 and 490 at Wheal Veronica, waiting patiently for the next move. This will be some time away because a) there are no trains to or from Wheal Veronica in the Saturday sequence and b) our scheduled running session in two weeks' time might not take place, depending on whether the Government lifts the lockdown in Greater Sydney this coming Friday. We shall see.

 

Edited June 29, 2022 by St Enodoc
images restored

[Nick Gough]

On 30/06/2021 at 09:11, St Enodoc said:

Yes, it has, but much to my surprise (and delight) it seems to be on the point of being able to re-open again.

 

https://www.zigzagrailway.com.au/

I do hope that they are successful.

However, when I visited Katoomba and the Blue Mountains in November 2017 their website also displayed a similar, optimistic message related to that year.

[5BarVT]

46 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Finally, I tried the two different ways to shunt Wheal Veronica that we discussed last week. Getting the brake van to the other end at St Enodoc involved far too much messing about, so I won't be doing that. Next I augmented the two short china-clay trains to their final 6-wagon length and added a brake van at the loco end. I had worried that these trains might look a bit silly with two brake vans and only six wagons but as it turned out I don't think they do. 7446 had no trouble with the various moves on the incline either, so I'm pretty sure now that this will be the way we will go.

I feel slightly guilty for provoking this exercise (but only slightly!), so I’m glad it has worked out O.K.

Paul.

[Mulgabill]

1 hour ago, St Enodoc said:

Yesterday and today I spent a good few hours working out the alignment of the single line between the curve in front of Wheal Veronica and Treloggan Junction.

 

Because of the relationship between Polperran, Treloggan Junction and Pentowan the location of the triangle itself is fixed, so I played around with graph paper, ruler, pencil, compasses and eraser to find a good route. There needs to be a bit of breathing space between the single line and the far end of Wheal Veronica, so I picked an arbitrary minimum value of 150mm (again) between the centre lines of the single line and the nearest siding, Wheal Veronica No 2. There will be transitions between all the curves and the intervening straights, so I worked with the templates for those too, also making up a new one that I didn't have before (30" radius, 0.5" shift which has a length of just under 19").

 

There also needs to be enough straight (or nearly straight) track between the future overbridge next to Wheal Veronica and Treloggan Junction for the two-coach Indian Queens Halt.

 

Eventually, after several iterations that involved extensive use of the eraser, I came up with an alignment that runs in front of Wheal Veronica with the gap between the tracks widening gradually before a curve to the left, the straight and then another curve to the right approaching Treloggan Junction.

 

Here's the first transition, coming off the long curve. This has a length of about 27" and a shift of 1", which helps to take the single line further away from Wheal Veronica.  There'll be about 200mm of straight track before the start of the next curve.

 

I changed the shiny Hornby wheels on the coal wagon, 490, for some old PC ones, which have a dull, darker, finish. The flanges and treads are too fine for layout operation but they are ideal for static models like this. I also removed the couplings but haven't done anything else to the wagon yet.

 

Finally, I tried the two different ways to shunt Wheal Veronica that we discussed last week. Getting the brake van to the other end at St Enodoc involved far too much messing about, so I won't be doing that. Next I augmented the two short china-clay trains to their final 6-wagon length and added a brake van at the loco end. I had worried that these trains might look a bit silly with two brake vans and only six wagons but as it turned out I don't think they do. 7446 had no trouble with the various moves on the incline either, so I'm pretty sure now that this will be the way we will go.

 

 

Here are SC2 and 490 at Wheal Veronica, waiting patiently for the next move. This will be some time away because a) there are no trains to or from Wheal Veronica in the Saturday sequence and b) our scheduled running session in two weeks' time might not take place, depending on whether the Government lifts the lockdown in Greater Sydney this coming Friday. We shall see.

 

 

.........  but you left off the before, an d after, pics of the rubber. Surely we

should see the evidence!

 

TONY

[Keith Addenbrooke]

1 hour ago, St Enodoc said:

 

I changed the shiny Hornby wheels on the coal wagon, 490, for some old PC ones, which have a dull, darker, finish. The flanges and treads are too fine for layout operation but they are ideal for static models like this. I also removed the couplings but haven't done anything else to the wagon yet.

I had an unmodified one of the Hornby St Austell wagons for some years - just changing the wheels and removing the large tension lock couplings makes a massive positive difference, especially for one at easy viewing height.  Like it.

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, Nick Gough said:

I do hope that they are successful.

However, when I visited Katoomba and the Blue Mountains in November 2017 their website also displayed a similar, optimistic message related to that year.

They have had all sorts of problems - organisational, financial and not least bushfires. I really thought they were done for. However, they have restored the track and got at least one loco working again, which has been doing some trial running recently:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmOsT-G2QEI

 

[St Enodoc]

24 minutes ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

I had an unmodified one of the Hornby St Austell wagons for some years - just changing the wheels and removing the large tension lock couplings makes a massive positive difference, especially for one at easy viewing height.  Like it.

I'll remove the coupler mounts too, which will open up the space under the headstocks. Other than fitting three-links, the rest will all be cosmetic.

[Nick Gough]

1 hour ago, St Enodoc said:

They have had all sorts of problems - organisational, financial and not least bushfires. I really thought they were done for. However, they have restored the track and got at least one loco working again, which has been doing some trial running recently:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmOsT-G2QEI

 

Good to hear they are making progress.

 

Hopefully, at some point, restrictions will be over and I'll be able to visit them in action.

[St Enodoc]

A slow and gentle tying-up-loose-ends session today.

 

The first job was to install the catch point at Wheal Veronica. This is a worked catch point, since its function is to derail anything that unintentionally runs away from Wheal Veronica towards St Enodoc. However, it needs to be worked when trains pass over it intentionally.

 

As usual, I replaced six sleepers with six timbers, one being longer than the others as shown in David Smith's book. The point blade is a dummy and is soldered to the outside of the running rail.

 

At the real Carbis, the catch point was on the other side of the track but on the layout it wouldn't make sense to derail wagons towards the single line below, so I've flipped it so that any runaways would end up next to the yet-to-be-revealed scenic feature [edit: as noted in a later post, I've found a photo from 1956 with the catch point in exactly the same place as I have modelled it].

 

After that, I fitted the last two uncoupler electromagnets at St Enodoc, at the Down end of the Loop and Platform 2 (the Up platform). I won't build the control panel for these until the main lever frame is in use though.

 

I've now used up all the coils that I recovered from the old layout , so at Wheal Veronica I will try a coil from an old H&M point motor, as used by several Leeds MRS members.

 

Finally today, I chopped away the coupler mounts, body retaining clips and dummy hook on the ECC wagon. I think it looks better already.

 

 

Edited June 29, 2022 by St Enodoc
images restored

[Nick Gough]

31 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

A slow and gentle tying-up-loose-ends session today.

 

The first job was to install the catch point at Wheal Veronica. This is a worked catch point, since its function is to derail anything that unintentionally runs away from Wheal Veronica towards St Enodoc. However, it needs to be worked when trains pass over it intentionally.

 

As usual, I replaced six sleepers with six timbers, one being longer than the others as shown in David Smith's book. The point blade is a dummy and is soldered to the outside of the running rail.

 

 

Sorry - I'm a bit slow on the uptake this morning (and I can't make out from the photos).

 

Have you created this catch by fixing a short piece of rail to a length of plain track?

 

Am I right in thinking that, on the prototype, this catch would be sprung and hand worked from an adjacent lever rather than the signal box?

[Clive Mortimore]

Sainty mate,

 

Not a working catch point?

 

My wide to gauge trap point.

 

 

It is not operational yet but can be made to work.

 

I still need to work out a system where both blades move in opposite directions off one point motor.

[Joseph_Pestell]

6 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Sainty mate,

 

Not a working catch point?

 

My wide to gauge trap point.

 

 

It is not operational yet but can be made to work.

 

I still need to work out a system where both blades move in opposite directions off one point motor.

 

A servo is probably easier for this than a conventional point motor.

 

Add: but if you most use solenoids, why not two wired together.

Edited July 4, 2021 by Joseph_Pestell

[Stubby47]

@Clive MortimorePut the point motor side on to the tie bars, and use two horns/angles to move the tie bars in opposite direction. 

Edited July 4, 2021 by Stubby47

[St Enodoc]

On 04/07/2021 at 18:24, Nick Gough said:

Sorry - I'm a bit slow on the uptake this morning (and I can't make out from the photos).

 

Have you created this catch by fixing a short piece of rail to a length of plain track?

 

Am I right in thinking that, on the prototype, this catch would be sprung and hand worked from an adjacent lever rather than the signal box?

Yes on both counts, Nick. The blade is soldered to the outside of a length of plain track.

 

The real thing was operated by a hand lever next to the point. Pull (and hold) the lever to close the switch against the spring, release the lever to let the spring open it again. In the trailing direction the blade would be closed by the action of the wheels.

Edited July 6, 2021 by St Enodoc

[St Enodoc]

48 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Sainty mate,

 

Not a working catch point?

 

My wide to gauge trap point.

 

 

It is not operational yet but can be made to work.

 

I still need to work out a system where both blades move in opposite directions off one point motor.

 

Just now, Stubby47 said:

Put the point motor side on to the tie bars, and use two horns/angles to move the tie bars in opposite direction. 

We went through this a year or so ago! As @Stubby47 Stu says, you need a double-ended crank with a central pivot. It doesn't matter what you use to operate the crank.

[Oldddudders]

I am a bit puzzled by the catch point, being unused to their deployment in a single line. While the principle of a hand-lever works fine for the once-in-a-blue-moon move over them in the wrong direction on a double track line, it is not clear who is going to do this for the returning train on the single line. Would that lucky person in fact have a spring-handle and treadle, where you pull the point and then stand on the treadle until the train has passed?