Jump to content

cornamuse

random pre-grouping questions

Recommended Posts

Kevin, I would doubt that many Midland wagons had internal timbering to make them totally self discharge. The necessary gradient would have drastically cut down on the carrying capacity. I suspect that the cell below the tracks would take a wagon load and that the bottom door would be opened and after whatever fell through had finished then the rest would be hand shovelled down the hole. From the photos it looks as if the delivery carts were quite small which would fit in with some research that I've done for my layout. Apparently bagged coal didn't come in till the 30's and most deliveries in towns were by small 2 wheeled carts.

I'm not aware of any Midland wagons with internal timbering. One of the problems was that in the Yorkshire coal fields the colliery screens would only accommodate 5 and 7 plank wagons and hoppers tended to be taller.

 

Jamie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The midland wagon in the photo is a D299 or D300 wagon both of which were fitted with bottom doors. Ironically the D299 and D301 5 and 6 plank wagons that were built for the S&DJR were not fitted with bottom doors.

 

Marc

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kevin, I would doubt that many Midland wagons had internal timbering to make them totally self discharge. The necessary gradient would have drastically cut down on the carrying capacity. I suspect that the cell below the tracks would take a wagon load and that the bottom door would be opened and after whatever fell through had finished then the rest would be hand shovelled down the hole. From the photos it looks as if the delivery carts were quite small which would fit in with some research that I've done for my layout. Apparently bagged coal didn't come in till the 30's and most deliveries in towns were by small 2 wheeled carts.

I'm not aware of any Midland wagons with internal timbering. One of the problems was that in the Yorkshire coal fields the colliery screens would only accommodate 5 and 7 plank wagons and hoppers tended to be taller.

 

Jamie

 

Jamie,

Do you have any references about coal sacks?  This is most disturbing as my coal wagon and man with a sack, have just got that, the sack!  :jester:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Midland 8 ton hopper wagons were to Diagram 343, of which 2100 were built. They could have been used for iron ore, but the have the same capacity as 8 ton end door wagons to D. 351 so they were just as likely to be used for coal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Furness

 

I suspect that the most prominent wagon in the picture is a "photo stand-in", being the cleanest thing they could find with nice big MR initials on it - it looks to me like a goods, rather than coal, wagon, and the ones actually being discharged have higher sides. But I know Nuffink when it comes to the Midland; I really only got interested because of the depots in West and South London, and the through coal trains.

 

The intrepid, tight-rope-walking, horse is odd too, because these 'coal traversers' had steam-engines to power them, presumably via wire ropes. I'm tempted to order a set of drawings from the NRM archive, to work it all out, but I suspect that my curiosity might prove costly to satisfy!

 

I think that the load was dropped into a cell, a coal-bunker effectively, not direct into the carts, which would probably have been flattened by the impact.

 

Anyway, c1875, London had 4 Million inhabitants, and consumed 8 Million tones of coal each year,of which 5 Million tons came by train, and 3 Million by sea. Not a lot of people know that!

 

Kevin

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jamie,

Do you have any references about coal sacks?  This is most disturbing as my coal wagon and man with a sack, have just got that, the sack!  :jester:

I got that from a book of photos of West Yorks Collieries from old postcards. I know that the date that they went to sacks was later than I thought. Also the photos that I've got of Lancaster in the 30's show lines of 2 wheel coal carts parked up for the weekend with their shafts in the air. I'll look for the book and post the info.

 

It's surprised me as well but saves me buying 10 sets of scales. However I need a lot more 2 wheel carts.

 

Jamie

Edited by jamie92208

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Furness

 

I suspect that the most prominent wagon in the picture is a "photo stand-in", being the cleanest thing they could find with nice big MR initials on it - it looks to me like a goods, rather than coal, wagon, and the ones actually being discharged have higher sides. But I know Nuffink when it comes to the Midland; I really only got interested because of the depots in West and South London, and the through coal trains.

 

The intrepid, tight-rope-walking, horse is odd too, because these 'coal traversers' had steam-engines to power them, presumably via wire ropes. I'm tempted to order a set of drawings from the NRM archive, to work it all out, but I suspect that my curiosity might prove costly to satisfy!

 

I think that the load was dropped into a cell, a coal-bunker effectively, not direct into the carts, which would probably have been flattened by the impact.

 

Anyway, c1875, London had 4 Million inhabitants, and consumed 8 Million tones of coal each year,of which 5 Million tons came by train, and 3 Million by sea. Not a lot of people know that!

 

Kevin

I would agree with you about the photo being posed Kevin. The other wagons all look to be 7 plank and were probably mainly Private owners from coal factors, coal merchants and collieries.

Coal was discharged into a cell and they usually had an outward facing door with a vertical hatch that allowed coal to be shovelled out into carts. There would be a weighouse and weighbridge at the exit from the yard.

 

Jamie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I suspect that the most prominent wagon in the picture is a "photo stand-in", being the cleanest thing they could find with nice big MR initials on it - it looks to me like a goods, rather than coal, wagon, and the ones actually being discharged have higher sides. But I know Nuffink when it comes to the Midland; I really only got interested because of the depots in West and South London, and the through coal trains.

 

Err no. The Midland used 'self cleaning paint' for their lettering so it never faded the way lettering on other companies wagons did.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jamie

 

The odd thing about these depots is that they weren't in "yards" - where all the carts are standing is the public highway, and the photographer is perched on another coal-traverser, belonging to the GNR, I think, that was on the other side of the street. There was another set in Pancras Road, right beside the passenger station, also fronting direct onto the highway, the one at Walworth in South London likewise.

 

I don't know how/where they weighed the coal, or whether it was sold by volume. Wasn't a "bushel" used as a volume measure for coal?

 

Or, maybe the local merchant bought a rail-wagon load, and hired a "cell", so the coal didn't actually need to be weighed at this point?

 

Shall I organise a whip-round, so that we can buy the drawings between us?

 

Kevin

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BB

 

Im not sure whether you're pulling my leg or not!

 

It sound rather like silent gunpowder.

 

Anyway, the wagon is freshly painted, methinks.

 

K

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BB

 

Im not sure whether you're pulling my leg or not!

 

It sound rather like silent gunpowder.

 

Anyway, the wagon is freshly painted, methinks.

 

K

You're legs will remain at their usual length, I've no idea how it worked but yes, self cleaning paint, anyway, only idiots can hear silent dynamite...

 

Didn't the L&Y have a lot of hoppers? probably second to the NER.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I got that from a book of photos of West Yorks Collieries from old postcards. I know that the date that they went to sacks was later than I thought. Also the photos that I've got of Lancaster in the 30's show lines of 2 wheel coal carts parked up for the weekend with their shafts in the air. I'll look for the book and post the info.

 

It's surprised me as well but saves me buying 10 sets of scales. However I need a lot more 2 wheel carts.

 

Jamie

 

Jamie,

Thank you.  I posted this on my thread and some pictures of what appear to be Victorian Coal merchants with sacks of coal were found.  Now, some of these are dann sarf in the smoke but the web pages gave the impression that other big cities had sacks as well.  I will be interested in your pictures.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Best justification for being a useless debauched slob anyone has ever conceived

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The M&CR had coal drops at several stations ( a set remains at the old Papcastle station near Cockermouth)  and I  suspect that these were primarily served by the M&CR's many chaldron wagons.

Edited by CKPR
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

It sound rather like silent gunpowder.

 

I've come across silent gunpowder or other similar explosives. I had an interesting time watching two massive blasts at an open cut mine. The first was VERY LOUD as I had forgotten to put on my ear protection. It's amazing how much the sound can reverberate in a deep mile wide pit. Funny thing was I could barely hear the second bang!

 

Dave

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, it's a bit like the sound of one hand clapping, but with a slightly lighter timbre.

 

K

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hoppered PO wagons were rare, especially so in the south of England. Given that most of the traffic into the depot was in PO wagons, the depot must have had a workforce to shovel out the coal, through the flat bottom-doors or through side doors. Therefore, no particular need for the Midland to send hoppered wagons there.

 

I suspect that hoppered wagons were only used on special flows where the customer wanted to unload quickly and without a gang of labourers; e.g. power stations and similar, heavy industries. Wagons on such "circuit" workings were recognized as special and were exempt from pooling in 1939. There was a legal row when the hoppered wagons of one owner - Fox - were taken into the pool.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Furness

 

I suspect that the most prominent wagon in the picture is a "photo stand-in", being the cleanest thing they could find with nice big MR initials on it - it looks to me like a goods, rather than coal, wagon, and the ones actually being discharged have higher sides. But I know Nuffink when it comes to the Midland; I really only got interested because of the depots in West and South London, and the through coal trains.

 

The intrepid, tight-rope-walking, horse is odd too, because these 'coal traversers' had steam-engines to power them, presumably via wire ropes. I'm tempted to order a set of drawings from the NRM archive, to work it all out, but I suspect that my curiosity might prove costly to satisfy!

 

I think that the load was dropped into a cell, a coal-bunker effectively, not direct into the carts, which would probably have been flattened by the impact.

 

Anyway, c1875, London had 4 Million inhabitants, and consumed 8 Million tones of coal each year,of which 5 Million tons came by train, and 3 Million by sea. Not a lot of people know that!

 

Kevin

 

The wagon prominently posed on the horse drawn traverser is a D299, presumably with bottom doors. Another photo in that series shows that Cambridge Street depot had a sideways tippler as well – presumably for wagons without bottom doors.

 

One of the wagons in the street has what looks like a pile of neatly folded coal sacks... in 1905.

 

 

Richard

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The white paint for wagon lettering contained Oxalic acid which oxidised away any dirt which landed on it and thus stayed relatively clean looking. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Same stuff as was used latterly in carriage washing machines, IIRC, causing BR blue trains to look all washed-out.

 

Originally extracted, again IIRC, from rhubarb, being what gives it the "tart" taste.

 

K

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Same stuff as was used latterly in carriage washing machines, IIRC, causing BR blue trains to look all washed-out.

 

Originally extracted, again IIRC, from rhubarb, being what gives it the "tart" taste.

 

K

 

It's also very good for removing rust.  My late father, a chemistry teacher, told me to use it to de rust an old miners lamp that I'd been given.  It worked a treat and vinegar sorted out the non ferrous parts.  He made some comment about 'organic' acids being more useful than the better known inorganic ones.

 

Jamie

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've used oxalic acid for rust-removal, but the substance I was most astounded by was black treacle, which I used to rescue some meccano and some Hornby tinplate track. The process is called chelating, and is an organic process where the oxygen molecules in the rust are persuaded that they would far rather be loosely swimming around in the 10% solution than attached to all that iron. I stuck in a pair of Hornby points and when they came out I was able to work the levers and move them.

 

The hard part with any of these, oxalyic acid, chelation, electrolytic rust-removal, is stopping the parts from rusting almost as soon as you rinse off the solution or electrolyte, even using boiled water you can see the rust forming before your eyes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My son has a big bath of molasses solution for de rusting the steelwork on his Daimler Dart which he is restoring. It is amazing at how quickly it gets rid of the rust but you have to wash, dry and prime the metal very quickly after taking the parts out of the bath. You can almost see the bare metal re rust as you watch!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.