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Class 800 - Updates


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I remain to be convinced (by direct experience) that it really will be more comfortable than an HST because if so it will be probably the first British operated train to achieve that since  ....  the introduction of the HST.  

 

I don't find some aspects of the BR Mk4 too bad but just about everything since has fallen well short although the 180 isn't too bad apart from the propensity of bits of it to come off if you inadvertently touch them.  Voyagers have their good points but alas, for me, they are by far outweighed by their various shortcomings and the Pendolino suffers from the main disadvantage of its ilk - it's cramped. 

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I remain to be convinced (by direct experience) that it really will be more comfortable than an HST because if so it will be probably the first British operated train to achieve that since  ....  the introduction of the HST.  

 

I don't find some aspects of the BR Mk4 too bad but just about everything since has fallen well short although the 180 isn't too bad apart from the propensity of bits of it to come off if you inadvertently touch them.  Voyagers have their good points but alas, for me, they are by far outweighed by their various shortcomings and the Pendolino suffers from the main disadvantage of its ilk - it's cramped. 

For me the mk3's and 4's are just baout the best out there. Its one reason that I like travelling on the Chiltern push pull services to  / from Birmingham more than on the West Coast route.

 

Next best are the Southern 377's 2 + 2 seating areas

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For me the mk3's and 4's are just baout the best out there. Its one reason that I like travelling on the Chiltern push pull services to  / from Birmingham more than on the West Coast route.

 

Next best are the Southern 377's 2 + 2 seating areas

I forgot those - only ever having had one trip on one but it was far better than I'd expected and good by almost any measure.

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I don't find some aspects of the BR Mk4 too bad

Seriously, do you not remember the original Mark 4 coach seats?

They were heavily criticised in early reviews

I travelled twice between Glasgow and Kings Cross (as a passenger), and thereafter travelled by HST!

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I remain to be convinced (by direct experience) that it really will be more comfortable than an HST because if so it will be probably the first British operated train to achieve that since  ....  the introduction of the HST.  

But Woolmer says they'll be great to travel in, and he knows everything about railways ever. That's why the BBC always use him as a rent-a-quote on railway stories.....

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For me the mk3's and 4's are just baout the best out there. Its one reason that I like travelling on the Chiltern push pull services to  / from Birmingham more than on the West Coast route.

 

Next best are the Southern 377's 2 + 2 seating areas

 

 

I forgot those - only ever having had one trip on one but it was far better than I'd expected and good by almost any measure.

 

I disagree because it depends not on the layout of the seating - rather its who went and ordered them.

 

Basically the batch Connex ordered in their dieing days (which used to be identifiable by the use of orange grab rails and non Southern motique) had 2 by 2 seating with a decent amount of cushioning on the seats and were thus pretty comfortable (please remember travellers on the SE / SC / SW section were used to the deep padded seats the Mk1 slam door stock).

 

When Govia took over the first thing they did for their batch was downgrade the seating which changed to having extremely thin bits of foam applied to the seats which were measurably harder and more uncomfortable than the Connex ordered units.

 

Unfortunately I believe Southern have been refurbishing their Electrostar fleet over the past couple of years so the Connex / SE interoirs have now all gone and replaced by the uncomfortable Southern variant.

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I disagree because it depends not on the layout of the seating - rather its who went and ordered them.

 

Basically the batch Connex ordered in their dieing days (which used to be identifiable by the use of orange grab rails and non Southern motique) had 2 by 2 seating with a decent amount of cushioning on the seats and were thus pretty comfortable (please remember travellers on the SE / SC / SW section were used to the deep padded seats the Mk1 slam door stock).

 

When Govia took over the first thing they did for their batch was downgrade the seating which changed to having extremely thin bits of foam applied to the seats which were measurably harder and more uncomfortable than the Connex ordered units.

 

Unfortunately I believe Southern have been refurbishing their Electrostar fleet over the past couple of years so the Connex / SE interoirs have now all gone and replaced by the uncomfortable Southern variant.

Yes the older seats were more comfortable but I still dont mind the Southern ones. The new377 five car and  387 seats though are way too hard.

 

They have just finished refreshing all their older 377 units so they have all gone green inside.

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Seriously, do you not remember the original Mark 4 coach seats?

They were heavily criticised in early reviews

I travelled twice between Glasgow and Kings Cross (as a passenger), and thereafter travelled by HST!

The current mk4 seats are good. cant remeber the original ones now.

 

Its often personal preference though but mk4s and 3's do give a better feel of space in them. I quite like the FGW mk3 high back seats but I know others who detest them.

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I think my fears about the Class 800 were a little more justified by a piece on BBC London News this evening when they were described as 'commuter trains'. However Richard Westcott at least described them as InterCity trains.

Well they were designed by committee - and a pretty disfunctional one at that so both descriptions could be right.

 

What's that saying about cannels and racehorses....

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Can't say I've been on any modern (post-privatisation) train that I've not found a big step backwards in comfort and pleasure to travel on. The 185s were bad enough to significantly reduce the amount of rail travel I do (Manchester to Penrith being my most common journey beyond nipping in to town or out to the Peak District) and their electric replacements are no better (even if they're longer so less overcrowded). Voyagers would be OK-ish if they hadn't jammed as many seats in.

 

I really, really hope the 800s buck this trend but I'll be very surprised if they do, I'm far too cynical and pessimistic to get enthused by anything new now. At least I quite liked the interior colour scheme I saw somewhere on here a while back, looking modern without being tacky.

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I think my fears about the Class 800 were a little more justified by a piece on BBC London News this evening when they were described as 'commuter trains'.  However Richard Westcott at least described them as InterCity trains.

Yes but it is London news, they tend to think in terms of trains being for commuters...

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The current mk4 seats are good. cant remeber the original ones now.

 

Its often personal preference though but mk4s and 3's do give a better feel of space in them. I quite like the FGW mk3 high back seats but I know others who detest them.

It is all subjective. I find the seats in the Mk4 after the Mallard refurb to be very uncomfortable and are the only seats on the network that reliably give me lower back pain every time I use them. 

 

All the eulogising about the Mk3 is a bit rich to me as well. Rather than regarding them as the last of the good coaches, I always think of them as the ones that initiated the decline in passenger standards as they were the first Intercity coach to break the all seats aligned with windows rule that had been the norm since the birth of the railways and all because BR would not go the expense of a 9 window standard class layout.

 

However, I agree that things in that department have got a lot worse since the introduction of the Mk3. 

 

ROB

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I wonder when we'll see a model, this has Hornby written all over it given their historic affinity for shiny fast inter city trains. If they spring an IEP model on us to the standard of their Class 395 I'd be very happy. Given that they worked with Hitachi for the 395 I wonder if this is something we will see Hornby unveil soon?

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All the eulogising about the Mk3 is a bit rich to me as well. Rather than regarding them as the last of the good coaches, I always think of them as the ones that initiated the decline in passenger standards as they were the first Intercity coach to break the all seats aligned with windows rule that had been the norm since the birth of the railways and all because BR would not go the expense of a 9 window standard class layout.

Fair point, although of course the Mk IIIs do have their fair share of good points. I know that I often seem to grumble about anything that the Flintstones wouldn't feel at home with but I'd really love to have a coach with the basic layout (and comfortable seats, almost all new ones are hard and cramped) of the MkI but the build and ride quality of something new. To me that would be the sign of a quality, modern railway, not just being able to get about slightly faster but in less comfort, but alas there's no incentive to make it happen.

 

But as I said hopefully my cyncicsm will be misplaced and the 800 will be the best of all worlds along with some new good bits of its own, leaving only nostalgia the only reason for wanting to travel on something older.

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A lot of the GWML long distance service do seem to be commuter services

Not quite -  lot of GW long distance services are used by commuters,  If the stops at Reading ceased to be 'open' stops then the use of the trains by commuters would be reduced by a massive amount at the stroke of a timetabling keyboard, as has happened in the past when a number of Down evening stops were 'u' only.  When I travel from Reading to Plymouth/Cornwall or Cardiff/Swansea. or even Bath/Bristol I very definitely don't want to be doing it on a 'commuter train' based on the principle of very high density seating and plenty of standing room and I'm quite sure that other travellers making similar journeys are not of a different viewpoint on that one.

 

In terms of long distance travel FGW is competing with the M4 /private cars/(in some cases) high quality road coaches - you don't compete with them by offering a poorer standard of passenger accommodation or environment although the aptly termed Daft don't seem to realise that.

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