Class 800 - Updates

[Zomboid]

So you say but i have yet to see any evidence of this. Lots of crap about HP and so on has been typed by many but all of that is irrelevant if you cant put it down on the rails so to speak. Lets wait till we have some real figures from trusted sources before we talk them down.

They are designed/ specified to do 100 on diesel. They'll be fine on electric, but asking a 100mph train to run a 125mph schedule is going to result in delays.

[Red Baron]

They are designed/ specified to do 100 on diesel. They'll be fine on electric, but asking a 100mph train to run a 125mph schedule is going to result in delays.

 

That depends on how much diesel running is at 125  vs how much gain there is on acceleration from stops with distributed traction package...   all of which will require some real world data to asses.

 

My heavy Audi Estate may have 435HP but  it doesnt mean it was faster than my old 300HP Porsche.

Edited June 8, 2017 by Red Baron

[The Stationmaster]

That depends on how much diesel running is at 125  vs how much gain there is on acceleration from stops with distributed traction package...   all of which will require some real world data to asses.

 

My heavy Audi Estate may have 435HP but  it doesnt mean it was faster than my old 300HP Porsche.

 

So unless they are blessed with a  lot of top end acceleration - i.e. above 75/80mph - on diesel power (which they might well have of course?) they are inevitably going to be slower than HSTs on the West of England, via either principal route.   Information on Real Time Trains (and I accept its potential inaccuracies for obvious reasons) definitely indicates that they cannot equal HST point-to-point times where the linespeed is 125mph.  But the critical tests of performance will really be on the uneven speed profiles near to their maximum speed on diesel and their ability to maintain existing times in those conditions.

[Red Baron]

So unless they are blessed with a  lot of top end acceleration - i.e. above 75/80mph - on diesel power (which they might well have of course?) they are inevitably going to be slower than HSTs on the West of England, via either principal route.   Information on Real Time Trains (and I accept its potential inaccuracies for obvious reasons) definitely indicates that they cannot equal HST point-to-point times where the linespeed is 125mph.  But the critical tests of performance will really be on the uneven speed profiles near to their maximum speed on diesel and their ability to maintain existing times in those conditions.

 

given the power profile tunability  of modern turbo diesels in all forms vs those of the 70's 80' 90's or even 00's i think we have to wait for real world performance before we judge. I am not disputing that there may be an issue.  I am however suggesting we wait for proof before we burn them

[SouthernMafia]

I'll believe the figures about Class 800 and variants when there's clear evidence that on diesel power they can achieve HST running times on a sustainable 'everyday traffic' basis and can start away from a dead stand on the steepest part of Dainton with one engine isolated. The key thing about operations west of Exeter (in particular but it also applies further east - the B&H for example) is the ability to recover speed from restrictions which often means acceleration in the higher speed ranges above 50 mph. If they can't reliably do that in normal traffic they will not be able to maintain HST speeds - end of story as there are a number of places (again noticeable on the B&H) where full power is needed to maintain running times and achieve such acceleration.

 

I suspect the 2+4 HSTs will run with one power car turned off as far as traction is concerned.

 

Incidentally to answer an earlier question GWR runs a Pullman dining service on a number of trains and on some it is very popular indeed. I've only sampled the breakfast but it is top notch - sets you up for the day! Quite how they will achieve soem of the menu without a proper kitchen onboard puzzles me but presumably a lot of what will happen will be based on re-heating?

Whilst I'll also be waiting for clear evidence I've heard it from Hitachi that work has been completed to allow them to match an HST.

 

On a catering note, there will be a full kitchen allowing the very popular Pullman service to continue at its current high standard. This will also supply the trolley service.

[Richard E]

There is a lot of night testing going on along the ECML between Darlington and York at the moment. Four or five sets stabled in Doncaster now.

[SouthernMafia]

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/U55324/2017/06/13/advanced

 

GWR event tomorrow with second Class 800 newly vinyled in GWR Green with special decals and nameplates (think it's 800 003)

Don't want to give away too much but I'm sure The Internet will allow you to put two and two together...

[The Stationmaster]

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/U55324/2017/06/13/advanced

 

GWR event tomorrow with second Class 800 newly vinyled in GWR Green with special decals and nameplates (think it's 800 003)

Don't want to give away too much but I'm sure The Internet will allow you to put two and two together...

 

Interesting performance by that train - clearly not any sort of record breaker taking 18.5 minutes to cover the 18m30ch from Slough to Paddington although it did have to cross Relief to Main at Dolphin.  The HST which passed Slough less than 2 minutes ahead of the Class 800 ran the distance in 15.75 minutes (but was no doubt in any case in press-on mode to avoid delaying the Class 800).  Maybe the Class 800 was running part of the distance on diesel power; it was 1.25 minutes quicker than the HST in from Southall to Paddington?

[wombatofludham]

Brenda out grices No1 son to not only blag an IEP but tag it too.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40248716

 

Apparently she is interested in the electrification, no surprise seeing as she cabbed an 87 in 1974.  So all those of you with a wasp up your gusset about trains with coathangers on the roof, "orf to the Tower" with you.

Edited June 13, 2017 by wombatofludham

[SouthernMafia]

Interesting performance by that train - clearly not any sort of record breaker taking 18.5 minutes to cover the 18m30ch from Slough to Paddington although it did have to cross Relief to Main at Dolphin. The HST which passed Slough less than 2 minutes ahead of the Class 800 ran the distance in 15.75 minutes (but was no doubt in any case in press-on mode to avoid delaying the Class 800). Maybe the Class 800 was running part of the distance on diesel power; it was 1.25 minutes quicker than the HST in from Southall to Paddington?

Timings were intentionally slack to allow for anything unexpected, and in the end it ran early. The event was never about speed, it was about the 175th anniversary, with the added benefit of showcasing the new train. Ran on diesel the whole journey to reduce the risk of anything going wrong with a switchover, bearing in mind the 800s are still being tested.

A very successful event and great to be a part of it.

Edited June 13, 2017 by SouthernMafia

[Titan]

I a

 

Timings were intentionally slack to allow for anything unexpected, and in the end it ran early. The event was never about speed, it was about the 175th anniversary, with the added benefit of showcasing the new train. Ran on diesel the whole journey to reduce the risk of anything going wrong with a switchover, bearing in mind the 800s are still being tested.
A very successful event and great to be a part of it.

I am surprised it ran on diesel at all since the OLE is energised and in service all the way from Maidenhead - no switchover required.

[DavidB]

Ah - I now understand why my lunchtime train to London firstly overtook 800003 running slowly on the Up Relief at Burnham and then passed an Up Freightliner running through Slough on the Down Relief, even though the Up Relief was unoccupied.  I couldn't work out what was going on, so thank you for explaining yesterday's special event.  800003 was sitting outside North Pole a couple of hours later, with one driving car named Queen Victoria and the other named Queen Elizabeth, so there seems to be a developing theme of GW Class 800s having different names at each end.

 

David

[The Stationmaster]

Timings were intentionally slack to allow for anything unexpected, and in the end it ran early. The event was never about speed, it was about the 175th anniversary, with the added benefit of showcasing the new train. Ran on diesel the whole journey to reduce the risk of anything going wrong with a switchover, bearing in mind the 800s are still being tested.

A very successful event and great to be a part of it.

 

Hope that didn't upset himself - he, in particular, has always been very keen on such trains running on time (and that includes NOT running before time).

[The Stationmaster]

I a

 

I am surprised it ran on diesel at all since the OLE is energised and in service all the way from Maidenhead - no switchover required.

If various local(ish) tales are to be believed it is apparently not very good quality electricity flowing through the wires west of Airport Jcn causing some booked Class 387 workings to be operated by dmus  (it might help when the 25kv feeder is fully commissioned and I believe there might also be a substation at Maidenhead West which isn't yet in commission).

[jim.snowdon]

If various local(ish) tales are to be believed it is apparently not very good quality electricity flowing through the wires west of Airport Jcn causing some booked Class 387 workings to be operated by dmus  (it might help when the 25kv feeder is fully commissioned and I believe there might also be a substation at Maidenhead West which isn't yet in commission).

There is a mid-point auto-transformer feeding station at Maidenhead, but as far as I am aware, the 25kV AT Feeder cable isn't fully complete. There another auto-transformer feeding station at Slough, but this is not in commission yet, all of which would suggest that Maidenhead is on a very long feed from the existing supply point at Old Oak Common, which probably makes the voltage at Maidenhead distinctly low when starting away. It might be said that getting electric trains to Maidenhead may have met a project milestone, but only just.

 

Jim.

[Metr0Land]

If various local(ish) tales are to be believed it is apparently not very good quality electricity flowing through the wires west of Airport Jcn causing some booked Class 387 workings to be operated by dmus  (it might help when the 25kv feeder is fully commissioned and I believe there might also be a substation at Maidenhead West which isn't yet in commission).

 

Just need to wait for breakdowns in winter to hear journos complaing of 'wrong type of electricity' 

[SouthernMafia]

I a

 

I am surprised it ran on diesel at all since the OLE is energised and in service all the way from Maidenhead - no switchover required.

It ran down from North Pole via Paddington and Reading, so would have needed to switch over somewhere. It probably could have done it on electric but the planners just said let's remove the risk altogether (however small it may have been) - understandable as it's not every day HMQ goes on a GWR train and with the media and wider rail industry watching we needed to get it right.

[SouthernMafia]

Hope that didn't upset himself - he, in particular, has always been very keen on such trains running on time (and that includes NOT running before time).

He did make a couple of quips, he was curious as to why it was 'Eight Hundred Thousand and Three', having had it explained to him that it was a Class 800, no. 3 he then said 'well why isn't it number 1?'

[159220]

They are designed/ specified to do 100 on diesel. They'll be fine on electric, but asking a 100mph train to run a 125mph schedule is going to result in delays.

 

? They are designed to 140 mph on electric and 125 mph on diesel mode. 

 

In normal operating circumstances, the IEP supplied IETs Class 800s are specified to operate at 125 mph in electric and 100 mph on diesel mode.

 

This is likely to be revised (discussion continuing between DfT and Agility Trains West) to up-rate the MTU power packs to allow a specified 125 mph on diesel mode operation until electrification of > 100 mph route sections is completed. Though it must be noted trials have suggested an IEP supplied IETs Class 800 can maintain HST diagrams without the power packs being uprated. Decision rests with the DfT.

 

The Eversholt supplied IETs Class 802s are specified to operate at 125 mph in electric and 125 mph on diesel mode. Though in operational practice, their core route being Paddington to Exeter/Plymouth-Penzance only has maximum line speed of 110 mph outside of the electrified > 110 mph sections. 

[The Stationmaster]

? They are designed to 140 mph on electric and 125 mph on diesel mode. 

 

In normal operating circumstances, the IEP supplied IETs Class 800s are specified to operate at 125 mph in electric and 100 mph on diesel mode.

 

This is likely to be revised (discussion continuing between DfT and Agility Trains West) to up-rate the MTU power packs to allow a specified 125 mph on diesel mode operation until electrification of > 100 mph route sections is completed. Though it must be noted trials have suggested an IEP supplied IETs Class 800 can maintain HST diagrams without the power packs being uprated. Decision rests with the DfT.

 

The Eversholt supplied IETs Class 802s are specified to operate at 125 mph in electric and 125 mph on diesel mode. Though in operational practice, their core route being Paddington to Exeter/Plymouth-Penzance only has maximum line speed of 110 mph outside of the electrified > 110 mph sections. 

 

Apart from the section of their core route west of Thingley Jcn where the linespeed is also 125 mph and which will seemingly now be beyond current electrification works.

[Coryton]

Just need to wait for breakdowns in winter to hear journos complaing of 'wrong type of electricity' 

 

Well you don't want poor quality electricity furring up all the wires in the brand new trains, do you?

[cornish trains jez]

Interesting performance by that train - clearly not any sort of record breaker taking 18.5 minutes to cover the 18m30ch from Slough to Paddington although it did have to cross Relief to Main at Dolphin.  The HST which passed Slough less than 2 minutes ahead of the Class 800 ran the distance in 15.75 minutes (but was no doubt in any case in press-on mode to avoid delaying the Class 800).  Maybe the Class 800 was running part of the distance on diesel power; it was 1.25 minutes quicker than the HST in from Southall to Paddington?

 

The chap from GWR on the telly the other night was banging on about the fact it was 5 minutes quicker than the old trains but he failed to realise that it was just a 5 coach train and just a few passengers on board. Obviously it's going to be quicker!!

 

They will NEVER live up to HST power nor comfort of the MK3 coaches. Soon, the whole country will be infested with this garbage from a company who used to make video recorders! He he!!

 

Oh well, it's all progress......(maybe)......I suppose....

[Ken.W]

So unless they are blessed with a  lot of top end acceleration - i.e. above 75/80mph - on diesel power (which they might well have of course?) they are inevitably going to be slower than HSTs on the West of England, via either principal route.   Information on Real Time Trains (and I accept its potential inaccuracies for obvious reasons) definitely indicates that they cannot equal HST point-to-point times where the linespeed is 125mph.  But the critical tests of performance will really be on the uneven speed profiles near to their maximum speed on diesel and their ability to maintain existing times in those conditions.

Hi Mike,

I've noted there's been a lot of discussion here concerning IEP diesel performance (lack of) compared to the HST

Well, from what I've recently heard, personally from a very reliable source,

Not only are they not designed for 125 operation on diesel, they're not actually up it. "We've not had 125 out of them yet, max 121 /123 descending Stoke bank."

Also, regarding acceleration above 75/80, leaving Doncaster southbound they're doing "90 still around Bawtry curve" - an HST's doing 110 there!

[The Stationmaster]

The chap from GWR on the telly the other night was banging on about the fact it was 5 minutes quicker than the old trains but he failed to realise that it was just a 5 coach train and just a few passengers on board. Obviously it's going to be quicker!!

 

They will NEVER live up to HST power nor comfort of the MK3 coaches. Soon, the whole country will be infested with this garbage from a company who used to make video recorders! He he!!

 

Oh well, it's all progress......(maybe)......I suppose....

 

Er yes - 5 minutes quicker than a broad gauge steam train if one press report was correct    (I can't verify that as although I have seen the original Royal Train Notice for Queen Victoria's first trip it was nearly 50 years ago so I can't remember the detail.  However I do recall that several of us were quite impressed by the booked running time from Slough to Paddington!)

[The Stationmaster]

Hi Mike,

I've noted there's been a lot of discussion here concerning IEP diesel performance (lack of) compared to the HST

Well, from what I've recently heard, personally from a very reliable source,

Not only are they not designed for 125 operation on diesel, they're not actually up it. "We've not had 125 out of them yet, max 121 /123 descending Stoke bank."

Also, regarding acceleration above 75/80, leaving Doncaster southbound they're doing "90 still around Bawtry curve" - an HST's doing 110 there!

Doncaster to Bawtry starts off with 4 miles level or falling, then a couple of miles rising (at less steep that 1 in 200) then finally falling.  Be interesting to see how they manage (or don't) on the 1 in 100 rising steadily from Box to Thingley where they will need to accelerate from 100mph to 125 mph in order to match HST times!