Class 800 - Updates

[Zomboid]

I travel daily on a voyager and a HST, and it's no comparison really, the HST is better in every way.

Though there are other problems with voyagers which are more annoying than the engines being under the floor, the biggest one being that they're at least 1 carriage too small for the number of people on them. If we get a 4 car it's not certain that I'll actually be able to get on it, such is the overcrowding. Though that did at least prove that underfloor engines haven't put people off... I suppose that's relevant to the notion of a 5 car IEP. They'll be fine until the demand grows.

[Coryton]

I've found it very much depends upon which coach you're in (is the engine usually off in one, or is one of them unpowered?). It's not too bad in the others but definitely noticable. To be honest I think the Voyagers come in for an unfair amount of criticism (my general dislike of anything vaguely modern notwithstanding), their problem is that they're just too busy for a lot of what they're used on, and the seating too crammed in. But the basic design isn't too terrible and although when they first appeared by initial impression was of commuter trains with ideas above their station when you get one that isn't crowded, and get a decent seat, they're comfortable enough for medium distance journeys.

 

I don't particularly like the standard class Voyager coaches - almost no tables and as you say seats crammed in, and without any regard for where the windows are (or aren't). Then there's the difficulty of finding out if a seat is reserved or not on the tiny displays, never mind finding that the seat that wasn't reserved when you got on has become somebody else's.

 

But non of these are the fault of the body-shell, and apart from the constraints of the tilt profile there is nothing much wrong with it - and the windows are huge.

 

Travelling in one of the west coast coaches laid out with 4-across seating but all facing across tables and lined up with the windows is a very different experience, and show what a different train Voyagers would be if it wasn't necessary to fit so many seats in. (I wonder how many more the usual format fits in, and how that compares to the seats lost due to a disabled toilet in every carriage....)

 

I don't know if these coaches still exist but were definitely something to aim for on the trains that had them.

[phil-b259]

Though that did at least prove that underfloor engines haven't put people off...

 

Which goes to show that the general public are less bothered by such things than enthusiasts like to think.

[Coryton]

 If we get a 4 car it's not certain that I'll actually be able to get on it, such is the overcrowding. Though that did at least prove that underfloor engines haven't put people off... 

 

Ah but maybe they'd be even more popular without the underfloor engines....?

 

I suppose that's relevant to the notion of a 5 car IEP. They'll be fine until the demand grows.

 

I doubt they are designed so that extra coaches can't be added. Though that might make them too long to run in multiple?

 

I travel daily on a voyager and a HST, and it's no comparison really, the HST is better in every way.

Though there are other problems with voyagers which are more annoying than the engines being under the floor, the biggest one being that they're at least 1 carriage too small for the number of people on them. If we get a 4 car it's not certain that I'll actually be able to get on it, such is the overcrowding. Though that did at least prove that underfloor engines haven't put people off... I suppose that's relevant to the notion of a 5 car IEP. They'll be fine until the demand grows.

 

[Reorte]

Which goes to show that the general public are less bothered by such things than enthusiasts like to think.

Or that they'll get on the train that takes them to where they need to go. After all I've been on Pacers that are about as crammed as is physically possible, but I don't think there are many people regretting that they won't be around much longer.

[Coryton]

Or that they'll get on the train that takes them to where they need to go. After all I've been on Pacers that are about as crammed as is physically possible, but I don't think there are many people regretting that they won't be around much longer.

 

Actually (heresy!) I quite like them.

 

And I do speak as a regular user.

[Reorte]

Actually (heresy!) I quite like them.

 

And I do speak as a regular user.

I suppose they're the classic easy target, which makes using them as an example a bit cheap.

[Ron Ron Ron]

... I suppose that's relevant to the notion of a 5 car IEP. They'll be fine until the demand grows.

  

 I doubt they are designed so that extra coaches can't be added. Though that might make them too long to run in multiple?

The Class 800 series is specified and designed to be configured up to a maximum number of 12 vehicles.

Presumably 2 x 6-car also fits in with this?

 

If portion working is only going to be applied down the end of the line, other than diagramming logistics, what's to say a 7+5 car configuration can't be employed?

 

 

 

Ron

[Zomboid]

I doubt they are designed so that extra coaches can't be added. Though that might make them too long to run in multiple?

But will it happen when needed? 4 car voyagers were too small the day they rolled out of the factory, and yet XCs latest wheeze to "add capacity" is to turn some 5s into 4s, not the other way round.

[m0rris]

In fairness to AXC that is to free up two coaches for the reformed ex-VWC driving cars set allowing AXC a net gain of two voyager coaches and one extra set overall.

[Zomboid]

I don't know how they plan to use the 3x 4 cars that they're turning 2x 5 cars into, but on my route they only run 4s and 5s, so it just increases the chance of a more inadequate than usual train showing up.

 

Anyway, that's off topic. What XC should do is buy some 802s, and actually increase capacity that way (bi mode would make reasonable sense for them, too, they could run on electric north of Coventry and York/ Donny...)

[Red Baron]

Exactly, portion working has long been necessity in the south, yet seems to be regarded with the upmost hostility by those based elsewhere.

 

OK, I get that the lack of end gangways on the units are a complication but I'm sure most users will adapt to the situation.

 

I think you forget the WCML sees plenty of portion working from virgin and TPE.   All without drama.

[Coryton]

But will it happen when needed? 4 car voyagers were too small the day they rolled out of the factory, and yet XCs latest wheeze to "add capacity" is to turn some 5s into 4s, not the other way round.

 

But then again Pendolinos got longer, didn't they?

[Reorte]

I think you forget the WCML sees plenty of portion working from virgin and TPE.   All without drama.

I've been delayed waiting for the other portion to arrive at Preston, so it's not completely without issues, but in general it works. The most remote spot I've been on a train that's joined is Crianlarich.

Edited July 4, 2017 by Reorte

[Coryton]

  

The Class 800 series is specified and designed to be configured up to a maximum number of 12 vehicles.

Presumably 2 x 6-car also fits in with this?

 

If portion working is only going to be applied down the end of the line, other than diagramming logistics, what's to say a 7+5 car configuration can't be employed?

 

Nothing, I'd say, so long as your 12 coach train fits into the platforms.

 

I don't know how long the platforms in Paddington are - SDO isn't much use if your train doesn't fit into the platform at a terminus...

[Coryton]

I've been delayed waiting for the other portion to arrive at Preston, so it's not completely without issues, but in general it works. The most remote spot I've been on a train that's joined is Crianlarich.

 

I can beat that - Georgemas Junction - in the good old days when there was a class 37 waiting to take one of the portions off...

 

The days of loco-hauled trains splitting are almost gone, though the shunting of the Aberdeen/Inverness/Ft William sleeper portions at Edinburgh is quite involved - not just splitting/assembling three portions, but also taking the seating/lounge car on/off the Ft William bit.

 

I wonder if they considered EMUs for the Caledonian Sleeper replacements, with buffers so they could be dragged off the wires 325 style? Or maybe bi-modes? I'm sure a diesel engine throbbing away under the floor would be just the thing to lull you off to sleep.

 

I think I'm getting a bit off topic though so I'd better stop.

[jim.snowdon]

I am a quite frequent user of both Virgin's Pendolinos and Voyagers and don't think they entirely deserve the criticism aimed at them. Certainly, there is the noise from the underfloor engine on the Voyagers, but I can't say that it is obtrusive - it's there and just part of the background noise. No worse, really, than when we had to put up with rail joints every 60 feet. Pendolinos may have smaller windows but they aren't claustrophobic - the bigger irritation is the frequency with which seats line up with the edges of the windows or with body pillars. I do like to have a view of the outside world. What I don't really like, in any long distance train is the face to back seating that is now nearly universal, especially when the seat pitch is close that there is barely room for the fold down table, let alone putting an iPad or laptop on it.

 

Jim

[Coryton]

I am a quite frequent user of both Virgin's Pendolinos and Voyagers and don't think they entirely deserve the criticism aimed at them. Certainly, there is the noise from the underfloor engine on the Voyagers, but I can't say that it is obtrusive - it's there and just part of the background noise. No worse, really, than when we had to put up with rail joints every 60 feet. Pendolinos may have smaller windows but they aren't claustrophobic - the bigger irritation is the frequency with which seats line up with the edges of the windows or with body pillars. I do like to have a view of the outside world. What I don't really like, in any long distance train is the face to back seating that is now nearly universal, especially when the seat pitch is close that there is barely room for the fold down table, let alone putting an iPad or laptop on it.

 

 

Small windows aren't so bad when you have a window seat. If you don't, they limit the view a lot more.

 

And  - it's a while since I've been on a Pendolino - but I seem to recall there is an aggravating ridge sticking out of the wall for no apparent purpose.

 

I found that in first class that while the windows nominally lined up with the seats it meant that none of them had a particularly good view because the windows are quite a bit shorter than the seating bay so everybody is sitting next to wall panel rather than window and you have to lean forwards to see out properly. It was quite a contrast with a trip in 1st class on the West Coast a few years before the Pendolinos came in.

 

I recall when the Pendolinos were introduced a spokesperson from Virgin being a bit disparaging of people who complained about the windows and explaining in a slightly patronising way that making holes in the side of a train reduces the strength and that anything larger would weaken the train too much. The interviewer failed to point out that Voyagers travel at the same speed and have enormous windows.

 

I suppose Pendolinos are designed for a higher speed even if they aren't allowed to do it, but the 395s seem to manage with decent sized windows.

 

I also prefer the smell of Mark 3 brakes to the aroma you tend to get in a Pendolino or Voyager.

[Zomboid]

Mk4s are also higher speed, never mind TGVs etc, and I don't recall those having laughable porthole windows.

 

Personally I prefer airline style seating to tables. I get more legroom of my own (rather than a negotiation with a stranger) and it feels more like a kind of personal space. Though I realise not everyone else feels that way, I suspect most commuters would agree with me. It's a thankless task designing one train interior for so many different users, the balance is probably just about impossible to find...

What I can't stand is having seats that line up with pillars rather than windows. But that seems to be a fact of life these days. There are probably even people who prefer those seats...

[cheesysmith]

heres a idea for the voyagers, the mk4 will be comming off the ecml soon. Send them through the works for a heavy overhaul and convert them into unpowered trailers and make them all 5 car.

 

A 5 car with 3000bhp wuld easly keep time.

[Siberian Snooper]

The trains in Canada and Spain that I have travelled on have all the seats facing the direction of travel except those at each end against the bulkheads.

 

I saw a programme on the Japanese bullet trains and they turn the seats around on them at the end of each journey.

Edited July 4, 2017 by Siberian Snooper

[Ron Ron Ron]

 

 

 

 

Edited July 4, 2017 by Ron Ron Ron

[Zomboid]

More proof that you can't please everyone- I like to have be back to the direction of travel...

[Geoff Endacott]

More proof that you can't please everyone- I like to have be back to the direction of travel...

 

Then use the return part of your ticket first.

 

Geoff Endacott

[Reorte]

Mk4s are also higher speed, never mind TGVs etc, and I don't recall those having laughable porthole windows.

 

Personally I prefer airline style seating to tables. I get more legroom of my own (rather than a negotiation with a stranger) and it feels more like a kind of personal space. Though I realise not everyone else feels that way, I suspect most commuters would agree with me. It's a thankless task designing one train interior for so many different users, the balance is probably just about impossible to find...

What I can't stand is having seats that line up with pillars rather than windows. But that seems to be a fact of life these days. There are probably even people who prefer those seats...

With tables legs can at least be arranged side by side. WIth airline seats I've usually got to be sit rammed upright or sprawling to the side. Avoiding knee contact on a table seat isn't great either. To be honest when a train gets that busy it feels overcrowded anyway. Overall some airline seats is probably good but they'll never align well with the windows, and if they're a majority the ambience is changed from a place to relax and watch the world go by to a bus, which is fine if commuting but lousy on a longer distance journey (I try my best to avoid 1/3 2/3 door trains for longer journeys for the same reason, to the point of sometimes finding having to change preferable when doing Manchester - Cumbria, not that I've used the train for that for quite a while now).

 

I would've agreed with you about the pillars but on the modern railway at least that stops me seeing anything that annoys me...

Edited July 4, 2017 by Reorte