Class 800 - Updates

[Captain Kernow]

Apologies if this has already been covered, but a source within GWR still loyal to the Captain told me yesterday that a pair of 5 car sets will start passenger service next week in a diagram that runs between Paddington and Cardiff and includes, if I recall correctly, a trip to Bristol TM as well. Not sure about times, sorry.

[Bumpkin]

Great video showing off the new 800s and the depot in Bristol by Geoff and Vicki at 'All The Stations', well worth a watch!

 

https://youtu.be/K2Azm_YmTW8

[Geoff Endacott]

From 16 October, four sets in traffic, two x 5-car sets on each of these diagrams:

 

5C03 06+33 North Pole Iep Depot to London Paddington 0640
1C03 0700 London Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads 0846 
1A11 0930 Bristol Temple Meads to London Paddington 1114 
1B28 1145 London Paddington to Swansea 1451
1L76 1524 Swansea to London Paddington 1832
1C27 1900 London Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads 2045 
5C27 21+09 Bristol Temple Meads to Stoke Gifford 2140

5A03 04+45 Stoke Gifford to Bristol Temple Meads 0517
1A03 0600 Bristol Temple Meads to London Paddington 0746
1B12 0815 London Paddington to Bristol Parkway 0945
5B12 09+54 Bristol Parkway to Stoke Gifford 0959
5L51 11+15 Stoke Gifford to Bristol Parkway 1120
1L51 1132 Bristol Parkway to London Paddington 1300
1B40 1345 London Paddington to Swansea 1651
1L90 1724 Swansea to London Paddington 2037
5L90 20+51 London Paddington to North Pole Iep Depot 2100

 

Geoff Endacott

[jamie92208]

If some of the recreations are close to accurate the Victorians had some pretty garish liveries on the railways too. Not only with the trains - I believe (the preserved) Armathwaite signal box is painted in Midland colours, and it certainly stands out.

 

The Midland colours were Chrome yellow and Chocolate according to 'Midland Style' and one of the two boxes on Green Ayre is painted in those colours and is very bright.   

 

Jamie

[The Johnster]

Preserved liveries, and Armathwaite signal box, are clean and freshly painted; I doubt that the reaility was as bright in Victorian times!   Modern life is a lot cleaner, with much less air pollution and soot everywhere, and colour, bright primary colour, is used everywhere in advertising and marketing; even in my childhood in the 50s and early 60s, by no means as dreary as Victorian times in the industrial cities, industrial pollution, soot, and the very common use of coal fires to heat homes made the general ambience very much greyer and monochromatic than that of today.

 

One of my minor grumbles about preserved railways is that they present their stock and buildings, in clean and good condition of course, but this does not reflect the reality of a working railway, dirty and sooty even in Victorian times when stock and especially locomotives were spotlessly clean at least on the outside.  People were generally pretty dirty, because just going outside of your house made you instantly dirty!

Preserved liveries, and Armathwaite signal box, are clean and freshly painted; I doubt that the reaility was as bright in Victorian times!   Modern life is a lot cleaner, with much less air pollution and soot everywhere, and colour, bright primary colour, is used everywhere in advertising and marketing; even in my childhood in the 50s and early 60s, by no means as dreary as Victorian times in the industrial cities, industrial pollution, soot, and the very common use of coal fires to heat homes made the general ambience very much greyer and monochromatic than that of today.

 

One of my minor grumbles about preserved railways is that they present their stock and buildings, in clean and good condition of course, but this does not reflect the reality of a working railway, dirty and sooty even in Victorian times when stock and especially locomotives were spotlessly clean at least on the outside.  People were generally pretty dirty, because just going outside of your house made you instantly dirty!

[D854_Tiger]

Has anyone managed to travel on one yet that could give us an update on what they're like.

 

Comfort, ride, noise, performance, that kind of thing.

 

I will make the effort myself, once a few more are in service, but I'm not going to the trouble of travelling down, just yet, whilst it's still early days.

[Reorte]

Although balance that against the most remembered time of steam being in its later days when cleaning was probably at its lowest ever level. Victorian photos often show shiny locos, although that has to be balanced against an awful lot of photos from that time being very posed publicity shots. Armathwaite signal box was hardly in a dreary industrial city though, so quite how grubby it would've got is questionable. Certainly with cheap labour though keeping stock reasonably clean was probably viable, heavily used buildings probably rather less so. Not much point in selecting bright liveries if they're just going to show how dirty your trains are (why we generally ended up with black for freight locos?)

[HillsideDepot]

Has anyone managed to travel on one yet that could give us an update on what they're like.

 

Comfort, ride, noise, performance, that kind of thing.

 

I will make the effort myself, once a few more are in service, but I'm not going to the trouble of travelling down, just yet, whilst it's still early days.

 

No one has yet, unless they are staff or similar, as they aren't supposed to enter service until Monday 16th. If it all goes according to plan I should be able to report back later on Monday. 

I have a feeling that they convert diagrams over pretty rapidly as the HSTs are needed elsewhere and they need to retain crew knowledge (that has been an issue with the Turbos at Bristol, with so few in traffic crews are trained, but can't then work them for real). Waverleyjohn on YouTube seems to visit the factory every Friday and often records a unit leaving for delivery. Last week 800024 departed, while 800026 was on test, with 800030 being the highest numbered visible in the works yard. That suggests, to me at least, they will become very common, very quickly.

[woodenhead]

And so the cascade begins, it will soon look very different again in Paddington.

[Captain Kernow]

No one has yet, unless they are staff or similar, as they aren't supposed to enter service until Monday 16th. If it all goes according to plan I should be able to report back later on Monday. 

I have a feeling that they convert diagrams over pretty rapidly as the HSTs are needed elsewhere and they need to retain crew knowledge (that has been an issue with the Turbos at Bristol, with so few in traffic crews are trained, but can't then work them for real). Waverleyjohn on YouTube seems to visit the factory every Friday and often records a unit leaving for delivery. Last week 800024 departed, while 800026 was on test, with 800030 being the highest numbered visible in the works yard. That suggests, to me at least, they will become very common, very quickly.

I think they will start off running on electric power as far as Maidenhead, and converting to diesel power on the move.

 

My friend said that acceleration is OK in terms of keeping to HST timings, but they struggle to get to the high '100 teens' or to 125 mph when running at speed on diesel power only, so it's a case of 'swings and roundabouts'.

Edited October 11, 2017 by Captain Kernow

[woodenhead]

I think they will start off running on electric power as far as Maidenhead, and converting to diesel power on the move.

 

My friend said that acceleration is OK in terms of keeping to HST timings, but they struggle to get to the high '100 teens' or to 125 mph when running at speed on diesel power only, so it's a case of 'swings and roundabouts'.

I guess Jo Passenger won't care as long as the ride is smooth, quiet and the service arrives to time.

[The Johnster]

Although balance that against the most remembered time of steam being in its later days when cleaning was probably at its lowest ever level. Victorian photos often show shiny locos, although that has to be balanced against an awful lot of photos from that time being very posed publicity shots. Armathwaite signal box was hardly in a dreary industrial city though, so quite how grubby it would've got is questionable. Certainly with cheap labour though keeping stock reasonably clean was probably viable, heavily used buildings probably rather less so. Not much point in selecting bright liveries if they're just going to show how dirty your trains are (why we generally ended up with black for freight locos?)

 

Victorian photographs often show gleaming locomotives and accounts of the era confirm that meticulous care really was taken of their appearance, especially where a loco was allocated to a specific driver and the inevitable competitiveness ensued.  Also, the photos were usually taken at a time when the buildings in the background were still new or relatively new.  But freight stock would have been filthy compared to modern equivalents which need to be clean in order to display their all-important branding, and the shining private owner coal wagon with white walled tyres is a myth (one or two may have well maintained by their owners, but this is very much the exception and often applied to owners who only had one or two wagons anyway).  Company owned wagons were pretty much left to their own devices as they were in BR days.

 

Keeping carriage stock clean and free of lice and cockroaches was a big problem especially where there were urban commuter networks and more especially where those featured cuttings or tunnels, so London, Liverpool, Birmingham, Glasgow were especially filthy places in which to travel by train.

 

The decline in standards of locomotive cleanliness co-incided with a general improvement in that of carriage stock, but the reasons were unconnected.  As far as the locos were concerned, the aftermath of the Great War saw a reduction in staff and the ability of sheds to keep on top of cleaning them, and pool working of locos was introduced in many places after the grouping, so the impetus for a driver to keep 'his' loco clean was much reduced; the attitude prevailed that cleaning the loco was the work of the cleaners, and there was no point in a driver making an effort if he was relieved by another driver who trashed it or had a completely different, and dirty, loco the following day.  Cabs were usually hosed down by the fireman, and kept hosed during the working day, but that and spectacle plates was as far as it went.  This was a trend rather than an overnight change, but by the 50s few sheds had sufficient cleaners to clean engines; those that they had were lighting the fires or off shed as acting firemen against the backgound of general staff shortages.  Loco work was dirty, hard, low paid in the lower grades, and the hours were very unsocial; you could hardly blame people who wanted to earn twice as much for regular shift work in a warm, clean, factory and go and dance with girls on a Saturday evening!

 

While all this was happening at the front of the train, the carriages were becoming much more wholesome, to a large extent because their contents were.  Indoor bathing in more and more homes, cheap carbolic soap easily obtainable, and better supplies of hot water meant baths were more like once a week rather than once a month whether you needed one or not, nit nurses waged war on head lice in schools, mothers armed with bottles of disinfectant or bleach held the line against the cockroaches, two wars and National Service instilled a culture of regular washing and grooming to military standards in young men, and the very passengers, the Great Unwashed, who had previously made trains filthy and smelly things in which to ride now started to complain about the dirtiness.  Companies responded by employing carriage cleaners and providing equipment for them at depot and in carriage sidings, and while many trains were a bit mucky by the end of a working day, a cleaning schedule brought them back into line for the following morning.  Again, this was not an overnight difference but a gradual sea change, put back many decades by the overuse of stock during World War 2 (when everything was covered in dust and smoke damaged from bombed buildings in the cities), but by the early 60s the main complaint was the condition of the exterior of the stock.  This was addressed effectively by 2 things, the introduction of carriage washing plants and a massive drop in traffic that meant that the stock got less dirty in the first place; by this time most people were showering at least once a day and were much more fragrant!

 

Very early photographs of very early locomotives such as Puffing Billy still at work in the 1860s at Hetton show what you'd expect from a loco that had spent many years in a colliery environment; indescribable filth not equalled until the very last years of steam operations on BR; so much for Victorian superclean locomotives...

 

A building like Armathwaite box, in a clean rural environment, would stay fairly clean but with only the windows being cleaned on the exterior the paintwork would fade fairly quickly and probably not be repainted until it was desperately needed; railway companies liked earning money but didn't much like spending a penny more than they had to on anything (some traditions are kept to this day!).  Inside the box, with a small group of men being responsible for things and pride being what it is, everything would be sparkling and I was once very firmly asked to leave Llandielo Junction box and never come back after I spilled some tea on a very highly polished wooden floor; this was in the 1970s; I have no reason to think matters are any different nowadays in those boxes that are left.  

 

Stations frequented by local nobility, or high ranking clergy, and of course especially by Royalty, were often kept in immaculate condition however and always freshly painted!   Flower competitions are, I think, a 20th century thing and any growing of plants in Victorian times would have been for the pot; potatoes, beans, radishes, cabbages, turnips, the usual vegetable garden fare for the use of station staff to supplement their own gardens.  

 

Black as a livery for freight locos became increasingly common during WW1 as a national wartime economy diverted paint to military use, especially during Lloyd George's tenure, and continued until the end of steam.

Edited October 11, 2017 by The Johnster

[woodenhead]

While all this was happening at the front of the train, the carriages were becoming much more wholesome.  Indoor bathing in more and more homes and better supplies of hot water meant baths were more like once a week rather than once a month whether you needed one or not, nit nurses waged war on head lice in schools, two wars and National Service instilled a culture of regular washing, and the very passengers, the Great Unwashed, who had previously made trains filthy and smelly things in which to ride now started to complain about the dirtiness.  Companies responded by employing carriage cleaners and providing equipment for them at depot and in carriage sidings, and while many trains were a bit mucky by the end of a working day, a cleaning schedule brought them back into line for the following morning.  Again, this was not an overnight difference but a gradual sea change, put back many decades by the overuse of stock during World War 2 (when everything was covered in dust and smoke damaged from bombed buildings in the cities), but by the early 60s the main complaint was the condition of the exterior of the stock.  This was addressed effectively by 2 things, the introduction of carriage washing plants and a massive drop in traffic that meant that the stock got less dirty in the first place; by this time most people were showering at least once a day and were much more fragrant!

 

I'll scrap my plans for a time machine to travel on a pre-war train then.

[Guest theonlydt]

Interesting comment in this news article:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/oct/11/japan-kobe-steel-scandal-ford-toyota-honda-mazda-boeing?CMP=twt_gu

 

"Japan’s third-biggest steelmaker, Kobe Steel, is embroiled in a deepening scandal over the quality of products including aluminium and copper used in cars, aircraft, space rockets and defence equipment."

 

"Hitachi said trains exported to the UK were affected, but the trains had not started operating yet."

 

Sounds to me like they're referring to the 800s? Wonder if this will change in-service date.

[frobisher]

"Hitachi said trains exported to the UK were affected, but the trains had not started operating yet."

 

Sounds to me like they're referring to the 800s? Wonder if this will change in-service date.

Not necessarily - it could be the Class 385's (maybe as well or instead). Those do have some delays on their acceptance.

Edited October 11, 2017 by frobisher

[Geoff Endacott]

This doesn't seem very promising: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K01497/2017/10/11/advanced .

 

Geoff Endacott

[37114]

I think they will start off running on electric power as far as Maidenhead, and converting to diesel power on the move.

 

My friend said that acceleration is OK in terms of keeping to HST timings, but they struggle to get to the high '100 teens' or to 125 mph when running at speed on diesel power only, so it's a case of 'swings and roundabouts'.

I notice that my train ex Chippenham on Monday is now timed to leave at 06.26 rather than 06.25 so looks like they are only losing 1 minute between Bristol and Chippenham

[Geoff Endacott]

The WTT gives 1A03 next week (IEP) the same timings as this week (HST.) That should be interesting.

 

Geoff Endacott

[St. Simon]

Hi,

 

Driver Training run 3X52 had an additional passenger in the cab today from Reading to London, me!

 

I had the privilege of sitting in the second mans seat after a short notice request to view the new Manual Changeover signage installation between Maidenhead and Taplow and talk to the driver and trainer to get their views ready for designing of the Automatic Installtion at Didcot in December.

 

From talking, although I can't reveal too much, I'm sure that people's apparent fears about various aspects of the trains won't materialise on Monday.

 

Here we are on after arrival at Paddington, I didn't get to do the return trip, although invited, as I had to get around to Westbourne Terrace!

 

 

Simon

[159220]

Has anyone managed to travel on one yet that could give us an update on what they're like.

 

Comfort, ride, noise, performance, that kind of thing.

 

I will make the effort myself, once a few more are in service, but I'm not going to the trouble of travelling down, just yet, whilst it's still early days.

 

Ive been lucky enough to see an interior, all be it in plastic wrap. Much fear before entry was around a grey tube, but actually, when you get inside it feels modern, light and appealing. The seats, though by appearance look hard, are actually pleasant on the back. Good arm support. Amazing leg room. Good visibility out of the window and a significant increase in table bay seats! Firm but supportive. In 1st, certainly, not as charming as the leather interior of the GWR HST, but, the seat itself is comfortable (and actually I suspect the fabric shall be nicer for long summer journeys). 

 

Simply modern train environment, the traveling public shall find them a significant improvement over the current GWR standard environment. 

 

Of course, the layout is DfT spec rather than GWR. We shall see what Virgin Trains do with the East Coast 800s from December 2018. And if images of the TP Express 802s are anything to measure a potential First future GWR franchise by. The interior of the 800s on the GW can only improve. 

 

My only concern is how I can get an espresso based coffee onboard, though been told there is a bean coffee machine in the kitchen! For standard tho? Still the kitchen is better than mine at home and no doubt the Pullman dining on the 800s shall excel. 

[alaneggleston]

 and a significant increase in table bay seats! 

 

 

Good, but how long before some bright spark decides that by removing a couple of tables they can slip in some more airline style seating?

[caradoc]

Hopefully soon, because I for one prefer airline seating ! A reasonable mix of both should (!) please everyone, if that is possible.

[HillsideDepot]

Good, but how long before some bright spark decides that by removing a couple of tables they can slip in some more airline style seating?

 

Interesting question, but with track capacity reaching its limits at certain pinch-points, and trains already as long as many platforms can take what else can be done if/when capacity needs to be increased?   

 

For what its worth I've booked airline seats for my trips on Monday.

[D854_Tiger]

My friend said that acceleration is OK in terms of keeping to HST timings, but they struggle to get to the high '100 teens' or to 125 mph when running at speed on diesel power only, so it's a case of 'swings and roundabouts'.

 

 

 

The class 800s are now supposedly getting the uprated class 802 spec engines, presumably that's a change not yet delivered or possibly even negotiated.

 

Seeing as it's likely to be only a change to the software configuration, it shouldn't take too long, but I can imagine the financials will take much longer particularly in relation to the the maintenance contracts and availability. 

[D854_Tiger]

My friend said that acceleration is OK in terms of keeping to HST timings, but they struggle to get to the high '100 teens' or to 125 mph when running at speed on diesel power only, so it's a case of 'swings and roundabouts'.

 

 

 

The class 800s are now supposedly getting the uprated class 802 spec engines, presumably that's a change not yet delivered or possibly even negotiated.

 

Seeing as it's likely to be only a change to the software configuration, it shouldn't take too long, but I can imagine the financials will take much longer particularly in relation to the the maintenance contracts and availability. 

 

P.S. I don't know how relevant these figures are (posted before) but they might give us some idea what to expect on performance.

 

All figures are for five car except the HST (2+8)

 

class 800 - weight 295 tons - 2250 bhp -   7.6 bhp per ton

 

class 802 - weight 295 tons - 2820 bhp -   9.5 bhp per ton

 

class 43   - weight 416 tons - 4500 bhp = 10.81 bhp per ton

 

class 221 - weight 278 tons- 3500 bhp = 12.58 bhp per ton

 

class 180 - weight 248 tons - 3500 bhp = 14.11 bhp per ton