Class 800 - Updates

[Covkid]

As a relatively frequent traveller, there seems to be a shortage of them at the moment, I have consistently been on HSTs over the last couple of weeks on turns which were solid IET turns.

 

Interesting comment Rob; my impression was that deliveries (or entries to service - which is what really matters) had stalled lately. 

 

I believe there has been a little "bunching" going on and HRE have not been able to commission the new trains quickly enough.

 

Two Italian built 802s (802014 and maybe 802013) have apparently spent several weeks parked up in Germany because they weren't welcome in the UK due to a backlog. In addition some of the LNER Azumas are receiving commissioning attention at Eastleigh works.  800109 having made it's way there recently.   

LNER 800107 and GWR 800317 at Eastleigh on 11th September - not my piccie

 https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-YRWZ7UaE2_8/W50_uxYd3pI/AAAAAAAAQ1w/MH2sRtNhp1kEf7dlNv8ltI90lX2t8mDvgCLcBGAs/s1600/800107%2B800317Eastleigh%2B15Sep18%2Ba.jpg

[Covkid]

A flickr link to image of GWR 802014 in the Muenchen area over two months ago. I believe it and it's compatriot spent July and August parked up in Germany and not sure if they have arrived in the UK yet 

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/145881006@N07/42388686005

[37114]

Is anyone enthusiastic about the 800-series trains?

From an enthuiasts perspective I am no lover of either HST or the class 800.

From a regular passenger perspective, I definitely prefer the 800s;

- More legroom

- More seats

- Better ride

- Wi-Fi is less temperamental than HST

- No smell of brakes on the approach to every station

- Seat reservations never work which is a bonus to me as I can never be sure which train I get so a carriage full of seat reservations means I may end up standing.

 

Only downside is the loss of the buffet car as I used to meet some friends for a Doombar or Thatchers on the way home which isn't quite the same with a trolley service.

Edited September 21, 2018 by 37114

[royaloak]

Only downside is the loss of the buffet car as I used to meet some friends for a Toolbar or Thatchers on the way home which isn't quite the same with a trolley service.

Dont you love autocorrupt! 

[Mark Saunders]

Only downside is the loss of the buffet car as I used to meet some friends for a Toolbar or Thatchers on the way home which isn't quite the same with a trolley service.

 

Are you suggesting the return of the Bulleid Tavern Cars?

 

Mark Saunders

Edited September 21, 2018 by Mark Saunders

[jamie92208]

Are you suggesting the return of the Bullied Tavern Cars?

 

Mark Saunders

Nowadays they could use Slater's brickwork on the outside rather than just painting the bricks on.

 

 

Jamie

[Gwiwer]

The Bulleid (not Bullied, perhaps auto-corrupt at work) tavern cars were apparently not the success they were expected to be. But in the modern era the original “snug” area in the class 442 units were extremely popular among City businessfolk.

 

The loss of a dedicated catering area is a retrograde step from many angles. More seats are a priority but with nine or ten vehicles per train on GWR there are already plenty more seats. Even if many of us find them uncomfortably hard.

[APOLLO]

Pardon me, boy
Is that the Cardiff Central choo choo?
Yes yes track twenty-nine
Boy, you can gimme a shine
Can you afford
To board the Cardiff Central choo choo
I've got my fare
And just a trifle to spare  (###### robbers !!)

 

You leave the Paddington Station 'bout a quarter to four (should have been 12.00)
Read a magazine and then you're in stopped at a red at Ealing oh boy
Dinner in the diner (your dreaming)
Nothing could be finer
Then to munch your packet of crisps stuck at another red at Chipping Sodbury

 

When you hear the whistle blowin' eight to the bar
Then you know that the Catenary is not very far
Shut down all the diesels
Gotta keep it rollin'
Woo, woo, Cardiff Central there you are

 

Brit15

Edited September 21, 2018 by APOLLO

[37114]

Dont you love autocorrupt!

Doh!!

[The Stationmaster]

I rather like them.

 

I still regard them as an ICCEs - InterCity Curates's Egg.

 

1. Unlike the HST which was a light years advance on what they replaced they don't have a as much of a pizzazz factor as something new.           So nothing special.

2.  I like the livery, a good step away from the fairground like nonsense adopted by many operators.                                                                          No change on the latest on HSTs.

3. I find the seats reasonably comfortable with good back support (although the seats on the GWR 387s are better in that respect) and I'm getting used to the hardish seat cushion (which is much better than the 387s) - definite improvement in 1st Class on the leather seats now used on GW HSTs.             Overall a plus

4. The interior design is pretty good, probably an improvement on HST interiors in their present form.   Overall a plus 

5. The performance on the juice is spectacular -   A plus

6. The performance on diesel is abysmal, major step backwards compared with the HST  -       Big minus. (but I have yet to sample an 802)

7.  The riding is not good and at times is absolutely atrocious reminding me of the ride on a poorly maintained BR Mk 1 bogie on the verge of hunting.   Absolutely appalling for a brand new 21st century train, whoever ordered and specified/accepted these trains should be condemned to travel daily in them between Swindon & Paddington at least 5 times every day. 

8.  Noise level is better than an HST apart from the racket from the bogies which is far worse than even a rundown HST   -  So both a plus and a minus

9.  When the catering is what it should be in 1st Class on 'ordinary' workings it is an improvement on the previous offering in HSTs - so a plus but not entirely f down to the train design of course.  The real test will be to see how the standard of Pullman dining compares.

 

So overall something of a mixture, generally the technical aspects apart (ride/bogie noise and performance on diesel)  I think they are in some respects a slight improvement on the HST but not a 'wow' step change which is rather disappointing.   However the technical letdowns are a big factor against them and a journey can be thoroughly ruined by the poor ride (which seems to be intermittent) and the occasional disturbing racket from the bogies which suggests not only bogie design 'issues' but poor sound insulation.

[Gwiwer]

In common with other recent types there is a lot less bogie structure to absorb track stress and noise.  Compare the HST bogie, and compare the earlier iterations of BR bogie from the Mk1 leaf-spring onward.  Not all were excellent in every respect but the style used on the 800-series sets (and the not-dissimilar style used on the many recent EMU units around London and the south-east in particular) which have virtually the entire wheel open and exposed on its outer face have been stripped of weight to the point where the remaining components are expected to take a much greater share of the stresses than previously.  

 

The sound of the wheels on the track does not inspire me with confidence.  The ride quality can be absolutely shocking and at best is firm and on the rough side.  There is nothing like sufficient compensation.   And for units designed to run at or above 225kmh (140mph for those playing at home) who ever designed them should, as Mike suggests, be sentenced to travel on them day after day.

 

The diesel traction issue arises because those power units were intended to be "last mile" not "main line" diesels to get the units to destinations off the core main lines and in the event of emergency to avoid total stranding if possible.  But as we now know the GWR electrification has become mired with problems and seems to be a bottomless money sump meaning we are stuck with an over=specified but half-completed job for at least a generation to come.

 

I remain to be convinced that the up-rated 802s will cope with a fully-laden train over the Devon banks, especially on a wet or greasy rail.  And they still have yet to pass the Dawlish storm test.

[APOLLO]

Ah the Dawlish storm test - these trains pass with flying colours - (the photographer deserves a medal also !!)

 

https://youtu.be/7HD744RbrGg

 

Brit15

[Coryton]

 

So overall something of a mixture, generally the technical aspects apart (ride/bogie noise and performance on diesel)  I think they are in some respects a slight improvement on the HST but not a 'wow' step change which is rather disappointing.   However the technical letdowns are a big factor against them and a journey can be thoroughly ruined by the poor ride (which seems to be intermittent) and the occasional disturbing racket from the bogies which suggests not only bogie design 'issues' but poor sound insulation.

 

Anecdotal evidence I admit, but on my trip from Cardiff to Didcot this week, I wasn't really paying attention to the ride on the 800 part of the journey, and it didn't get bad enough to draw my attention.

 

On the other hand, the ride on the HST part was appalling. Admittedly I was standing in the vestibule rather than in a seat, but at one point when I bent down to put something in my bag I was thrown sideways and banged my head on the door.

 

The ride on 800s does seem to be rather variable.

[Gwiwer]

 

 

 these trains pass with flying colours

Unlike some modern trains which cannot pass at all in those conditions - and a good deal calmer.

 

Also some interesting use of the bi-directional signalling and (probably) pilot working caught on video there.  Isn't it only the Up road signalled for bi-directional working?  Meaning the trains running wrong-road on the Down would require a pilot.

[Covkid]

 

Stationmaster wrote

 

Whoever ordered and specified/accepted these trains should be condemned to travel daily in them between Swindon & Paddington at least 5 times every day. 

 

 

 

Well yes.  Thanks very much Department for Transport, for ignoring the industry and going to Hitachi

Edited September 22, 2018 by Covkid

[exet1095]

I still regard them as an ICCEs - InterCity Curates's Egg.

 

1. Unlike the HST which was a light years advance on what they replaced they don't have a as much of a pizzazz factor as something new. So nothing special.

2. I like the livery, a good step away from the fairground like nonsense adopted by many operators. No change on the latest on HSTs.

3. I find the seats reasonably comfortable with good back support (although the seats on the GWR 387s are better in that respect) and I'm getting used to the hardish seat cushion (which is much better than the 387s) - definite improvement in 1st Class on the leather seats now used on GW HSTs. Overall a plus

4. The interior design is pretty good, probably an improvement on HST interiors in their present form. Overall a plus

5. The performance on the juice is spectacular - A plus

6. The performance on diesel is abysmal, major step backwards compared with the HST - Big minus. (but I have yet to sample an 802)

7. The riding is not good and at times is absolutely atrocious reminding me of the ride on a poorly maintained BR Mk 1 bogie on the verge of hunting. Absolutely appalling for a brand new 21st century train, whoever ordered and specified/accepted these trains should be condemned to travel daily in them between Swindon & Paddington at least 5 times every day.

8. Noise level is better than an HST apart from the racket from the bogies which is far worse than even a rundown HST - So both a plus and a minus

9. When the catering is what it should be in 1st Class on 'ordinary' workings it is an improvement on the previous offering in HSTs - so a plus but not entirely f down to the train design of course. The real test will be to see how the standard of Pullman dining compares.

 

So overall something of a mixture, generally the technical aspects apart (ride/bogie noise and performance on diesel) I think they are in some respects a slight improvement on the HST but not a 'wow' step change which is rather disappointing. However the technical letdowns are a big factor against them and a journey can be thoroughly ruined by the poor ride (which seems to be intermittent) and the occasional disturbing racket from the bogies which suggests not only bogie design 'issues' but poor sound insulation.

Doesn’t sound like you have spent any time in standard class. Both the 800 and 387 seats are unforgivingly hard, with a nasty, shiny flat cloth on the former, off which it is easy to slide. I’ve not travelled in first class, since all my tickets are bought on the day, and with my own money.

[Coryton]

Doesn’t sound like you have spent any time in standard class. Both the 800 and 387 seats are unforgivingly hard, with a nasty, shiny flat cloth on the former, off which it is easy to slide. I’ve not travelled in first class, since all my tickets are bought on the day, and with my own money.

 

I found the 800 seats a little hard at first, though otherwise fine.

 

They have stopped bothering me now.

 

In terms of comfort, I'd take an 800 over a (GWR) HST any day.

 

They aren't so good for sticking your head out of windows though.

[The Stationmaster]

Anecdotal evidence I admit, but on my trip from Cardiff to Didcot this week, I wasn't really paying attention to the ride on the 800 part of the journey, and it didn't get bad enough to draw my attention.

 

On the other hand, the ride on the HST part was appalling. Admittedly I was standing in the vestibule rather than in a seat, but at one point when I bent down to put something in my bag I was thrown sideways and banged my head on the door.

 

The ride on 800s does seem to be rather variable.

 

HST riding in the vicinity of the bogies went well downhill a good while back and has never got any better so I try to avoid being anywhere near the bogies if I can.  And you ain't seen nothing until you have breakfast while sitting over a bogie although I suspect a bit of care was taken to get better riding vehicles into the sets used with Pullman catering.

Doesn’t sound like you have spent any time in standard class. Both the 800 and 387 seats are unforgivingly hard, with a nasty, shiny flat cloth on the former, off which it is easy to slide. I’ve not travelled in first class, since all my tickets are bought on the day, and with my own money.

I only tried it very briefly on my first trip on one and didn't find it too bad.  If you want hard seat cushions on the GWML try a 387

[magic_monkey09]

I still regard them as an ICCEs - InterCity Curates's Egg.

 

9.  When the catering is what it should be in 1st Class on 'ordinary' workings it is an improvement on the previous offering in HSTs - so a plus but not entirely f down to the train design of course.  The real test will be to see how the standard of Pullman dining compares.

 .[/i]

I wouldn't go as far as to say the first class catering is an improvement over the HST. The product range is exactly the same offered on both trains with the only difference being that the coffee is filtered on IET's and instant on HST's. Also the airline cart used on IET's is a lot more compact than the stainless steel trolley used on a HST meaning it can't carry as much stock. The less luxurious seating passengers will notice the most and find it harder to justify the premium price.

The Pullman restaurant services should be easier to implement now that the service can be offered on any IET set. Unlike the HST having several types of catering vehicles with many non compatible for Pullman's resulting in set swap needed.

[The Stationmaster]

I wouldn't go as far as to say the first class catering is an improvement over the HST. The product range is exactly the same offered on both trains with the only difference being that the coffee is filtered on IET's and instant on HST's. Also the airline cart used on IET's is a lot more compact than the stainless steel trolley used on a HST meaning it can't carry as much stock. The less luxurious seating passengers will notice the most and find it harder to justify the premium price.

The Pullman restaurant services should be easier to implement now that the service can be offered on any IET set. Unlike the HST having several types of catering vehicles with many non compatible for Pullman's resulting in set swap needed.

 

I did say 'the previous offering on HSTs' and I did point out it was not down to the train design.  Simple fact is that with the introduction of Class 800s the offer has been changed and improved on what it previously was although that is also the case on HST workings.   The trolleys of course now have to be designed to pass through narrower aisles so it's not surprising that they are smaller but that obviously comes with stock penalties.  Once again we are back to decisions made by DafT who decided not to include a space for a buffet on these trains - whether the operators would have made a similar decision is something we don't know teh answer to and probably never will although 'research' alleges passenger would prefer at seat service (so we are told).

 

The test with Pullman Dining is going to be something very different due to the changes to food preparation and cooking processes so the critical commercial point will be whether or not GWR can still achieve the same standard as on HSTs.  And I wonder if they can?

[Gwiwer]

 

 

Pullman

Very much a niche market but GWR are apparently backing it quite strongly.  Notwithstanding that the Pullman service - and the number of crews on staff - has reduced from what it was when it replaced the Travelling Chef meals service.  Breakfast is now only available on two up morning trains (one from Penzance, breakfast served from around Totnes) and one from Swansea (breakfast served from around Bristol Parkway).  The one-time Great British Breakfast, not the same as the Pullman service meals but more than adequate and which used to be offered aboard many IC and Cross Country trains and was served either from a Mk1 restaurant or an HST 405xx kitchen or 407xx large-galley catering car, is long gone despite its alleged popularity.  

 

The quality is good.  The price is fair for the offering and taking account of the very high staff : customer ratio (with only 17 dining seats that is about 1:4 compared with overnight sleeping car trains at more like 1:30).  My experience has been more than satisfactory when the advertised service has been provided.  But on several occasions it has been unavailable owing to "a kitchen fault" (twice), "No Pullman Car being available" (once - in other words a set swap / misplaced meaning the 407xx wasn't there and a small-galley or counter-only car was in its place) and "overcrowding" (once - and in fairness the set was a 2+8 and full and standing end-to-end all the way up from Plymouth).

 

The 8xx sets were not intended for full meal service so far as we can tell.  No dedicated catering area and nothing for the standard class majority at all unless the trolley gets through and has anything left for sale.  As I have said before let us wait and see how the trolley service fares in full service.  I suspect an effort is being made currently to ensure it is stocked and reaches everyone.  There would also possibly be more than ample staff at present as GWR has to re-deploy those displaced from HST catering.  

[HillsideDepot]

I though that the IETs were providing Pullman service. The GWR website https://www.gwr.com/plan-journey/journey-information/on-board/pullman-dining carries this note about them:

How Accessible is the Pullman Carriage?

There are currently no available spaces for wheelchair users, or accessible toilets, on our Pullman services. 
Our new Intercity Express Train Pullman coaches, which will start to enter service in 2018, will provide access to wheelchair users and have accessible toilets.

It says nothing else about any differences between types of train, but I am pleased to see that the page has been amended to show the revised times for the Welsh services during the current Bristol Parkway closure.

[Zomboid]

whether the operators would have made a similar decision is something we don't know teh answer to and probably never will although 'research' alleges passenger would prefer at seat service (so we are told).

Depends how the question is asked. The idea of using stuff brought to your seat is good, but the research might attempt to account for the fact that a trolley doesn't have as big a range and is only passing when it's passing (as opposed to the always open buffet car), but I suspect given the actual choice on offer rather than a theoretical one they'd get a different answer.

 

Of course, using the space for seating is a valid consideration as well, and given that the GWML is basically a commuter route these days (Plymouth line aside), that might be the overriding concern. It's certainly irritating to be forced to stand next to the never used buffet counter in a 444. The ECML is still an intercity route so the buffet car might be more obviously appropriate there.

[Market65]

I was on York station this afternoon, and in platform 6 at 16.15, stood at rest was 800201 in between test runs. I took some photo’s, including these two, one of which shows the label in one of the windows stating Made In Japan....

The seats look better than in the class 144 I had the misfortune to travel to York from Hull in. I post a photo here of the seats in it. They are bolt upright with no padding at all. I ended up with very bad backache. I don’t think the standard class seats in the 800/2 are quite as bad as the seats in the 144.

So here’s the three photo’s, two of the 800, and one of the seats in the 144.

 

 

 

 

Regards,

 

Rob.

[The Stationmaster]

Very much a niche market but GWR are apparently backing it quite strongly.  Notwithstanding that the Pullman service - and the number of crews on staff - has reduced from what it was when it replaced the Travelling Chef meals service.  Breakfast is now only available on two up morning trains (one from Penzance, breakfast served from around Totnes) and one from Swansea (breakfast served from around Bristol Parkway).  The one-time Great British Breakfast, not the same as the Pullman service meals but more than adequate and which used to be offered aboard many IC and Cross Country trains and was served either from a Mk1 restaurant or an HST 405xx kitchen or 407xx large-galley catering car, is long gone despite its alleged popularity.  

 

The quality is good.  The price is fair for the offering and taking account of the very high staff : customer ratio (with only 17 dining seats that is about 1:4 compared with overnight sleeping car trains at more like 1:30).  My experience has been more than satisfactory when the advertised service has been provided.  But on several occasions it has been unavailable owing to "a kitchen fault" (twice), "No Pullman Car being available" (once - in other words a set swap / misplaced meaning the 407xx wasn't there and a small-galley or counter-only car was in its place) and "overcrowding" (once - and in fairness the set was a 2+8 and full and standing end-to-end all the way up from Plymouth).

 

The 8xx sets were not intended for full meal service so far as we can tell.  No dedicated catering area and nothing for the standard class majority at all unless the trolley gets through and has anything left for sale.  As I have said before let us wait and see how the trolley service fares in full service.  I suspect an effort is being made currently to ensure it is stocked and reaches everyone.  There would also possibly be more than ample staff at present as GWR has to re-deploy those displaced from HST catering.  

 

Breakfast is still available on the 10.45 Padd - Swansea.  Regrettably there is early service to the West of England with breakfast available - in my view this is the biggest loss as there used to be a lively breakfast trade westwards in the mornings in travelling Chef days.  But then there is neither a lunch or dinner service available to Swansea.  

 

This is all a simple consequence of only having Pullman catering crews based at Plymouth and Swansea and in that respect it isn't really a bad idea when you consider potential recruitment problems in the London area even if it is less helpful to some passengers. 

 

As Adrian ('Hillside Depot') has already noted the GWR website indicates that Pullman catering will be available on Class 8XX trains which is also as previously stated by Mark Hopwood (in response to a question from me at a local rail users group meeting).  The trains do of course have the capability - certainly in GWR fit - to serve hot meals although as I previously said I'm not sure how they will achieve a standard similar to that which can be obtained on HSTs.