Class 800 - Updates

[Zomboid]

Axle counters also don't require insulated block joints, which are a source of headaches for track folk (so I hear).

[phil-b259]

Axle counters also don't require insulated block joints, which are a source of headaches for track folk (so I hear).

 

Indeed they are - particularly in complex station layouts where electric traction is used.

[Talltim]

Why are they called axle counters when they count wheels?

[royaloak]

Why are they called axle counters when they count wheels?

Because each axle has 2 wheels and it only counts a complete wheelset as 1.

[Talltim]

Not everything has axles with 2 wheels!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handcar

On a more serious note, I’m sure I recall some sort of vehicle having stub axles, I.e. one axle per wheel and also some sort of track measuring machine with an extra wheel on one side

[jamie92208]

Not everything has axles with 2 wheels!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handcar

On a more serious note, I’m sure I recall some sort of vehicle having stub axles, I.e. one axle per wheel and also some sort of track measuring machine with an extra wheel on one side

Most Talgo's have stub axles on wishbones. As do several modern designs of low floor trams.

 

Jamie

Edited September 26, 2018 by jamie92208

[david.hill64]

Axle counters also don't require insulated block joints, which are a source of headaches for track folk (so I hear).

This is a major benefit. IRJ's (Insulated Rail Joint) are very expensive. To avoid spark erosion problems as electric trains cross them, and to provide a return path for the traction current, they also require impedance bonds to be fitted.

 

On the last project I worked on in Bangkok, not having to fit IRJ's within turnouts reduced the price by 80,000 euros per turnout. This quickly adds up to a lot of money before the cost of maintenance checks is included.

[jim.snowdon]

This is a major benefit. IRJ's (Insulated Rail Joint) are very expensive. To avoid spark erosion problems as electric trains cross them, and to provide a return path for the traction current, they also require impedance bonds to be fitted.

 

On the last project I worked on in Bangkok, not having to fit IRJ's within turnouts reduced the price by 80,000 euros per turnout. This quickly adds up to a lot of money before the cost of maintenance checks is included.

Although the difficulties of doing that in S&C is a prime reason for the localised adoption of single rail track circuits, when impedance bonds are needed only at the boundaries of the S&C, where the track circuits change from single to double rail. Even with single rail circuits, the IRJs are still needed, usually in significant numbers and sometimes in awkward places (signalling designers do not always appreciate that a simple line on a scheme plan denoting a track circuit boundary can be in a place where a track engineer would really not want to put one).

 

Jim

 

As a ps., I'm all in favour of using axle counters in S&C, even in otherwise track circuited areas, simply in order to clear out the multitude of IRJs.

Edited September 27, 2018 by jim.snowdon

[jamie92208]

Although the difficulties of doing that in S&C is a prime reason for the localised adoption of single rail track circuits, when impedance bonds are needed only at the boundaries of the S&C, where the track circuits change from single to double rail. Even with single rail circuits, the IRJs are still needed, usually in significant numbers and sometimes in awkward places (signalling designers do not always appreciate that a simple line on a scheme plan denoting a track circuit boundary can be in a place where a track engineer would really not want to put one).

 

Jim

 

As a ps., I'm all in favour of using axle counters in S&C, even in otherwise track circuited areas, simply in order to clear out the multitude of IRJs.

Sounds as if it's as difficult in real life as in the model world. Working out where to make isolating cuts and designing a relay matrix to keep trains running through S & C is real fun, especially when there are 3 or four turnouts and slips.

 

 

Jamie

[magic_monkey09]

 

This is all a simple consequence of only having Pullman catering crews based at Plymouth and Swansea and in that respect it isn't really a bad idea when you consider potential recruitment problems in the London area even if it is less helpful to some passengers.

 

As Adrian ('Hillside Depot') has already noted the GWR website indicates that Pullman catering will be available on Class 8XX trains which is also as previously stated by Mark Hopwood (in response to a question from me at a local rail users group meeting). The trains do of course have the capability - certainly in GWR fit - to serve hot meals although as I previously said I'm not sure how they will achieve a standard similar to that which can be obtained on HSTs.

Actually Paddington has its own Pullman crew along with Plymouth and Swansea. They work 1C83 13:03 PAD-PLY and 1A97 18:03 PLY-PAD (16:00 PNZ-PAD). London living allowance on top of a decent basic salary ensures there are no recruitment problems.

 

Standards wise the Pullman is the only part of GWR catering that hasn't taken a backwards step. The crews provide an excellent welcoming experience for passengers and this continues on IET's. Standard class passengers are of course still welcome too if the restaurant isn't fully reserved. 407xx catering vehicles today are old and poorly maintained and this sometimes impacts on the service when appliances are faulty. All of the pots and pans and table top equipment etc are the same that's used on HST's so taste wise passengers won't notice any change. Providing IET kitchen equipment doesn't develope any teething problems like the trains themselves have suffered there shouldn't be any problem keeping standards high.

Edited October 4, 2018 by magic_monkey09

[159220]

Actually Paddington has its own Pullman crew along with Plymouth and Swansea. They work 1C83 13:03 PAD-PLY and 1A97 18:03 PLY-PAD (16:00 PNZ-PAD). London living allowance on top of a decent basic salary ensures there are no recruitment problems.

 

 

 

And as a semi-regular on the London based crew Pullman, I can only say they are one of the friendliest teams on the railway network. I always have a very enjoyable journey, with excellent food and interesting company. I have not in the years I have used the Pullman seen any staffing issues, in-fact, it has basically been the same crew for many years. 

 

I highly recommend anyone travelling, to try the Pullman experience. 

[RJS1977]

Is there any word as yet on when the remaining short-formed IET services (e.g. 1A09 0812 Taunton-Paddington) will be strengthened to their correct lengths?

[Ken.W]

Just to help the debate and because it's quite technical, here is the full section from Uncle Roger's Ezine.

 

If interference had raised concerns on the GWML, it became a potential show-stopper when testing in electric mode began on the East Coast Main line (ECML). It was discovered that when an IET entered the York Integrated Electronic Control Centre (IECC) area, the Solid State Interlocking (SSI) Data Link Modules, which drive the points and signals, began flashing up faults. As a result IET has been banned from running under electric traction north of Colton Junction.

 

Not quite, as I've posted earlier they're actually banned on electric traction from north of Doncaster station.

York IECC doesn't take over from just south of the station, the actual change over's between Great Heck and Balne L.C., around 3 mile south of Templehirst Jn., and 10 miles north of Doncaster.

[Luke Piewalker]

Saw 802014 lurking in the siding at Newton Aycliffe works when I passed in the way to Shildon yesterday. Certainly looked smart in GWR green.    

[Banger Blue]

Is there any word as yet on when the remaining short-formed IET services (e.g. 1A09 0812 Taunton-Paddington) will be strengthened to their correct lengths?

1A09 08.12 Taunton - Paddington was formed of 802009 & 802011 this morning so was running at its correct length.

 

As of 13:00 there were three IET formation variations:

One 5v10 affecting 4 services.

An HST vice 802 affecting 2 services

One 9v10 affecting two services.

 

Not all units have been delivered from Hitachi yet and there is still a requirement for ongoing Driver Training (West Country drivers on the 802s).

[Siberian Snooper]

A 5 car 802 set was seen trundling through Keyham on an up service this afternoon, it looked good and was pretty quite.

[bgman]

Taken very quickly on my iPhone yesterday afternoon following my 2nd trip on one from Newton Abbot to Exeter St. Davids, a full set.

 

[RJS1977]

1A09 08.12 Taunton - Paddington was formed of 802009 & 802011 this morning so was running at its correct length.

 

 

 

Typical - my colleague who always complains that it's too short didn''t come in today! And it was on time as well....

[surfsup]

Six combinations (including reversals of course).

 

We'll give the trains A (should be London end) and B (should be Bristol end) codes to explain -

 

1. Booked and advertised formation is (from the Bristol End) -  B/A + B/A 

2. Reversed formation of a correctly marshalled train. - A/B + A/B

 

Incorrectly marshalled formations -

3. A/B + B/A

4. 3 reversed

5.  B/A + A/B 

6.  5 reversed

 

End A has the wheelchair space so with a passenger in a wheelchair requiring to board or leave the train and reserved to a particular coach the bridging board has to be in the correct place to get the boarding/alighting process done within station time.  Even though the door can in some situations be no more than a distance of two coach lengths apart (i.e. 5 & 6 above) there are others where it can be an entire train length apart (i. 3 & 4 above).  Similarly reserved bicycle spaces can be way off where they should be platformed as of course can be reserved seats.  Net result - as seen at Cardiff and elsewhere by me - is people milling about on station platforms trying to find the right coach, and in some cases that will be over the length of a 5 car set and potentially over the length of a 10 car train.

 

 

 

Incidentally I came across this yesterday, with the still unhelpful announcements giving out numbers "First Class is in Coaches 1,2, 9 & 10" causing confusion when the unit came in in the formation of F, G,H,I,J,A,B,C,D,E. 

 

On a slightly related note, their Scottish cousins - the 385 fleet - has been entirely grounded today after a serious braking failure yesterday in the Winchburgh area. The 800s I gather are also suffering some issues but thankfully not the extent of the 385s. 

[cunningduck]

Incidentally I came across this yesterday, with the still unhelpful announcements giving out numbers "First Class is in Coaches 1,2, 9 & 10" causing confusion when the unit came in in the formation of F, G,H,I,J,A,B,C,D,E.

 

On a slightly related note, their Scottish cousins - the 385 fleet - has been entirely grounded today after a serious braking failure yesterday in the Winchburgh area. The 800s I gather are also suffering some issues but thankfully not the extent of the 385s.

A particular shame, as the 385 I experienced recently was swift, comfortable (seats and ride) and very impressive. It was ugly though!

[Titan]

Taken very quickly on my iPhone yesterday afternoon following my 2nd trip on one from Newton Abbot to Exeter St. Davids, a full set.

 

 

And for comparison...

 

https://youtu.be/C1ICcOu0NkM?t=38

[Siberian Snooper]

Anyone here been on one over the banks, yet? I would be interested to know how they perform in comparison to an HST.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

I understand that a 57XX pannier tank has been allocated to Newton Abbot to help if the need arises.....

[royaloak]

Anyone here been on one over the banks, yet? I would be interested to know how they perform in comparison to an HST.

They are slower, it has been posted several times.

 

Signed an IET driver.

[Zomboid]

802s? I've noted it said several times that 800s are much slower, but haven't seen anyone mention 802s until now.