Class 800 - Updates

[Coryton]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

A very non-scientific snapshot of the Class 80X trains I saw today -

 

Trains formed 2x5 incorrectly marshalled - c.60+% of all those I saw (and therefore not counted in the next category because they were obviously already wrong)

Trains running in reverse formation (either 9 car or 2x5 car correctly marshalled) - at least 50%, and probably more of all those I saw

 

Agrees with what I've seen. Correctly formed trains, facing in the right direction, seem to be in the minority at the moment.

 

I'm sure it will all get sorted out in time but I'm not sure it helps the public image of the new trains....you don't get a second chance to make a first impression and all that...

 

Or maybe I'm overestimating how much most people care about such niceties and how much it would help them even if trains were always the right way round.

[Afroal05]

11 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

A very non-scientific snapshot of the Class 80X trains I saw today -

 

Trains formed 2x5 incorrectly marshalled - c.60+% of all those I saw (and therefore not counted in the next category because they were obviously already wrong)

Trains running in reverse formation (either 9 car or 2x5 car correctly marshalled) - at least 50%, and probably more of all those I saw

 

I'm not actually sure if from a Control room point of view there are any conscious efforts to get them the 'right' way round. There are no turning moves in the system like there used to be for the HSTs and whereas historically if you knew a set was going to be turned (say through weekend engineering work) you would try to set up the following days diagram to re-turn it there is no such efforts with 80Xs. I think this is in part because the planning department  simply don't know which way round a unit or units will be.

 

Set get re-marshalled on depot overnight and GWR only find out which set is on what shortly that set comes off in the morning so even with the best will in the world it is quite difficult to know what is coming off with any real advance warning. (In the context of sets coming out of a depot - clearly you know what you've got in the ones that out stable at Worcester, Hereford, Exeter.)

 

Once a train does come into service it is the the role of the Customer Information Controller to call each train manager or station to find out the orientation of the set(s). From that the CIS screens can be updated and the formation/orientation of a given train advertised.

 

10 hours ago, Coryton said:

Or maybe I'm overestimating how much most people care about such niceties and how much it would help them even if trains were always the right way round.

 

I'd like to think that if it is correctly advertised (and that can be a big 'if') it wouldn't be a problem but I suspect that view is heresy!

[caradoc]

5 hours ago, Afroal05 said:

 

Once a train does come into service it is the the role of the Customer Information Controller to call each train manager or station to find out the orientation of the set(s). From that the CIS screens can be updated and the formation/orientation of a given train advertised.

 

Is there no clause in the contract that obliges Hitachi to advise GWR, a stipulated time before departing the depot, the orientation of each set entering service ? If not, there certainly should be. 

 

[HillsideDepot]

A Bristol GWR driver often posts a diary of his duty on a facebook group and there was a case recently where he was working an empty set from Stoke Gifford to Hereford. He expected to meet his Guard and catering crew at Newport where the train was booked to reverse. Instead they boarded at Bristol Parkway as he was reversing there, so he asked Control if he could run via the curve at Newport and avoid the reversal. Control agreed, so whatever plan there might have been as the set came off the depot, it was undone before the train entered service.

 

In other news 802112 was delivered this week (just 2 more due) and 802109 has been out on test. Staff at St Philip's Marsh Depot meanwhile are expecting March 28th/29th to be the last night that they service full length HSTs.

[Afroal05]

9 minutes ago, caradoc said:

 

Is there no clause in the contract that obliges Hitachi to advise GWR, a stipulated time before departing the depot, the orientation of each set entering service ? If not, there certainly should be. 

 

 

I have no knowledge of the contract and its requirements unfortunately but it would appear not! 

There is a live spreadsheet that is updated by Hitachi with which unit will be allocated to which service, how far in advance that sheet is complete I am not sure. However some days it is not uncommon to be working from 'version 3' by 07:00 with everything swapped about. Honestly I am not sure orientation is really considered in these processes.

 

As Hillside Depot alludes if a reversal can be saved and a train can just carry on without anymore faff then that route is often taken but will of course change the orientation of the set.

[Coryton]

6 hours ago, Afroal05 said:

I'd like to think that if it is correctly advertised (and that can be a big 'if') it wouldn't be a problem but I suspect that view is heresy!

 

Perhaps...though people (myself included) have rather got used to the idea of there being a 'right way round'.

 

And at the moment the descriptions still aren't good enough - "first class in coaches 1,2,9 and 10" doesn't obviously tell you where you reserved seat is.

 

It would probably be more useful to give the coach letters in order, and have signs saying which coach letters are first class, or add it to the description.

 

The last I looked they still had posters up saying which way round the trains should be - they could change those to make it clear that orientation is random or at the very least not to say there is a right way round.

[talisman56]

17 hours ago, Coryton said:

 

Agrees with what I've seen. Correctly formed trains, facing in the right direction, seem to be in the minority at the moment.

 

I'm sure it will all get sorted out in time but I'm not sure it helps the public image of the new trains....you don't get a second chance to make a first impression and all that...

 

Or maybe I'm overestimating how much most people care about such niceties and how much it would help them even if trains were always the right way round.

 

It is of very great interest to regular travellers who have booked seats in the correct coach for detraining on the platform at their local station (where doors of only the first several cars of an HST or front unit of a 2x5-car 80x will be released) only to find their seats at the wrong end of the train and they have to swap to the other unit when directed and then have to stand from there to the destination station. Several journeys I have taken recently have been affected this way.

Edited March 10, 2019 by talisman56

[Coryton]

13 minutes ago, talisman56 said:

 

It is of very great interest to regular travellers who have booked seats in the correct coach for detraining on the platform at their local station (where doors of only the first several cars of an HST or front unit of a 2x5-car 80x will be released) only to find their seats at the wrong end of the train and they have to swap to the other unit when directed and then have to stand from there to the destination station. Several journeys I have taken recently have been affected this way.

 

That must be incredibly annoying.

 

Unless I'm missing something, it should be fairly easy (for the operator - not the customer) to avoid.

 

All that's necessary is to make sure that the unit at the country end is always the one with coach A. Since the coach letters are entirely electronic, this should be possible no matter which way either unit is facing (unless it reverses en-route, which is rare, or two units come together to form a train and arrive in the wrong order).

 

However, for some reason, often the two units are lettered the wrong way round.

 

Of course it's also necessary to make the reservations for the correct unit...and it seems that even that isn't happening which is even harder to explain.

 

[talisman56]

My experiences are that if the train is 2x80x and they are both (a) oriented correctly; and (b) the correct way round, the coach lettering is A at the country end of Paddington, and lettered back from there, the same as been traditional on HSTs.

 

If the complete train has correctly oriented units but is the wrong way round, coach A is by the bufferstops at Paddington and lettered forward from there.

 

On the one occasion I have had a mis-oriented unit (the one at the country end the wrong way round) coach A has been the town end of the front unit (ie 5th in train) and the rear unit lettered correctly.

 

What is needed is where the whole shebang is the wrong way round, the front unit to be lettered A-E and then seat reservations would be in the correct unit for short platform stations. Whether this needs a software update is subject for the train providers.

 

FWIW, the usual response from GWR crew when complaint is made is 'speak to Hitachi'. My response is that you are the service provider (I bought the ticket from you, not Hitachi), it is on you to provide the service correctly. Obviously there isn't a clause in the service contract between GWR and Hitachi that would ensure that Hitachi provide the sets for service in the correct manner. I suspect a failure at DfT...

Edited March 10, 2019 by talisman56

[The Stationmaster]

18 hours ago, Coryton said:

 

Agrees with what I've seen. Correctly formed trains, facing in the right direction, seem to be in the minority at the moment.

 

I'm sure it will all get sorted out in time but I'm not sure it helps the public image of the new trains....you don't get a second chance to make a first impression and all that...

 

Or maybe I'm overestimating how much most people care about such niceties and how much it would help them even if trains were always the right way round.

I think a few minutes on the platform at Reading - as I saw yesterday watching a train bound for Penzance (correctly marshalled but running in reverse formation) - or even more so during the evening peak at Paddington (and probably the morning peak at various stations) as people dash hither and thither to find the right vehicle or the one most likely to have empty seats would readily demonstrate the advantages of correctly formed and oriented trains.  It would be interesting to see some real station overtime figures to see if incorrect formation is having any impact on station overtime.

 

BTW 'real station overtime' means not what the station staff or track circuit etc occupation are recording but what independent observers with stop watches record.

[Gwiwer]

 unless it reverses en-route, which is rare

Not at all rare. It is timetabled to occur at Gloucester and Swansea several times each day. It has also been timetabled to occur at Exeter St. Davids during the Whiteball blockade. 

 

And that is before any unplanned diversions requiring a reversal. 

 

The issue of passengers being unable to reach their booked seats was foreseen and mentioned much earlier in this topic by myself. It has been normal for an HST to stop at a short platform with the standard class coaches platformed which ever way round the set is. Announcements are made and at times reference is made to being “in reverse formation therefore the rear four not the front four coaches will be unlocked”. These are still A to D however. 

 

Likewise hen a 2x5 IET formation serves a short platform only the designated doors can be released but if the train is not presented as planned it can be impossible to access the booked seats. The result is usually random unbooked seats being occupied, reserved seats left empty and sometimes passengers standing in consequence of this. 

 

As I said back then this is not acceptable and in most cases is avoidable.  Whether the responsibility rests with GWR or Hitachi both parties need to be communicating to address the issue. Currently it seems both have their heads firmly in the sand of different beaches. 

 

It isn’t as simple as merely labelling the front coach as A. The sets are not mirror images. Each vehicle is different. Coach A must always be the appropriate, not necessarily the leading, vehicle. 

[Coryton]

21 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

Not at all rare. It is timetabled to occur at Gloucester and Swansea several times each day. It has also been timetabled to occur at Exeter St. Davids during the Whiteball blockade. 

 

OK I meant if it reverses unexpectedly. If a reversal is planned then it should not prevent reservations from being put in the right part of the train.

 

23 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

Likewise hen a 2x5 IET formation serves a short platform only the designated doors can be released but if the train is not presented as planned it can be impossible to access the booked seats. The result is usually random unbooked seats being occupied, reserved seats left empty and sometimes passengers standing in consequence of this. 

 

As I said back then this is not acceptable and in most cases is avoidable.  Whether the responsibility rests with GWR or Hitachi both parties need to be communicating to address the issue. Currently it seems both have their heads firmly in the sand of different beaches. 

 

It isn’t as simple as merely labelling the front coach as A. The sets are not mirror images. Each vehicle is different. Coach A must always be the appropriate, not necessarily the leading, vehicle. 

 

No of course it's not as simple as labelling the front coach as A. Each coach in a 2x5 set can only have one of two letters. But there is something very, very, wrong if it's not possible to arrange for coach A to always be in the leading set heading away from London, and the rear set towards London, and put reservations into the appropriate set, thus making sure everyone can reach their reserved seat even if they might have to walk between carriages.

 

1 hour ago, talisman56 said:

What is needed is where the whole shebang is the wrong way round, the front unit to be lettered A-E and then seat reservations would be in the correct unit for short platform stations. Whether this needs a software update is subject for the train providers.

 

 

What is needed is extremely simple. Where two units are run together, no matter which way round either unit is, the unit at the country end has coaches A-E. It might result in A being at the end or E being at the end, but it puts both of them in the same unit. In principle this should not be hard for software to achieve. If it's not, I would argue that something has gone very wrong, whether it was in specifying the software or implementing it. These things happen. But I hope that somebody is working on sorting it out. 

 

1 hour ago, talisman56 said:

FWIW, the usual response from GWR crew when complaint is made is 'speak to Hitachi'. My response is that you are the service provider (I bought the ticket from you, not Hitachi), it is on you to provide the service correctly. Obviously there isn't a clause in the service contract between GWR and Hitachi that would ensure that Hitachi provide the sets for service in the correct manner. I suspect a failure at DfT...

 

If GWR are giving an official response that customers should speak to Hitachi I would say that is utterly unacceptable - as you say the passenger has no contract with Hitachi. 

 

However, I can very much understand an exasperated staff member having to cope with irate passengers pointing out that Hitach is to blame.

 

[JJGraphics]

17 hours ago, Coryton said:

 

If GWR are giving an official response that customers should speak to Hitachi I would say that is utterly unacceptable - as you say the passenger has no contract with Hitachi. 

 

If this were the USA, I suspect that we would be seeing "class actions" against GWR for "breach of contract". Come to think of it . . .

 

John

 

Edited March 11, 2019 by JJGraphics

[locoholic]

18 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

 

 

Not at all rare. It is timetabled to occur at Gloucester and Swansea several times each day.

Just to be slightly pedantic, the reversals at Gloucester and Swansea are almost always "undone" on the return journey, so have no effect on the orientation of the sets during the day. Empty stock workings to/from the depot at the start and finish of the day are the only time an unexpected reversal might occur.

 

I once remember being on an Aberdeen - London HST that did an unexpected three-point turn on the triangle at Thornton Junction just to get the set round the right way, but I think that was way back in the bad old days of BR.

[The Stationmaster]

I retain a more than strong suspicion that whoever put together the provision contract for these trains knew considerably less about how a railway should work than the little finger of many contributors to this thread.  Whether or not train operators had any input, and whether or not DafT took any notice of such input if it happened, remain questions to which we are unlikely to get an answer.  But the important thing appears to me to be the fact that nobody is seemingly trying to put it right and even worse, by implication of some of the comments above, not even Control know if a train comes off depot the wrong way round or incorrectly formed - in that situation any train operator is on a hiding to nothing before they even start.

 

Perhaps it is about time somebody asked a Parliamentary question on this matter?  in the meanwhile I await with anticipation the next visit of Mark Hopgood to our local rail user group which might give me a chance to raise the issue directly with him. 

Edited March 11, 2019 by The Stationmaster
Correct typo

[Geoff Endacott]

It could be worse. They might not all be the right way round, but at least they are all the right way up.

 

Geoff Endacott

[woodenhead]

14 minutes ago, Geoff Endacott said:

It could be worse. They might not all be the right way round, but at least they are all the right way up.

 

Geoff Endacott

As far as we know......

[Gwiwer]

4 hours ago, Geoff Endacott said:

It could be worse. They might not all be the right way round, but at least they are all the right way up.

 

Geoff Endacott

It might make those pesky cables harder to climb if the units were upside-down

[phil-b259]

6 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

Perhaps it is about time somebody asked a Parliamentary question on this matter?  

 

Excuse my scepticism - but do you really think 'Failing Grayling' (or his minions) are really going to actually answer the question instead of spouting the usuall 'its all commercially sensitive / all down to the TOC / yes there might be a few teething troubles but that doesn't matter because of the wonderful new trains we got you' rubbish.

 

Of course given the way the car crash that is Brexit is going said Politicians also might have a few more pressing things on their mind than which way round a train is being presented.....

[jamie92208]

28 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Excuse my scepticism - but do you really think 'Failing Grayling' (or his minions) are really going to actually answer the question instead of spouting the usuall 'its all commercially sensitive / all down to the TOC / yes there might be a few teething troubles but that doesn't matter because of the wonderful new trains we got you' rubbish.

 

Of course given the way the car crash that is Brexit is going said Politicians also might have a few more pressing things on their mind than which way round a train is being presented.....

I suspect that the only route that might have a chance of getting proper answers would be an enquiry by the Transport Select Committee.  That could be achieved by everyone writing to their MP's to put pressure on them.

 

Jamie

[The Stationmaster]

19 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

I suspect that the only route that might have a chance of getting proper answers would be an enquiry by the Transport Select Committee.  That could be achieved by everyone writing to their MP's to put pressure on them.

 

Jamie

Maybe I should add it to the list of questions (about GWML electrification cancellation costs and consequent variations to the Class 800 contract) I have already sent to the Secretary to that Committee for their consideration as future items to raise with DfT etc?

[royaloak]

When operating 2x5 coach sets together coaches A to E should be Country end, coaches G to L should be London end regardless of orientation of the sets, that doesnt stop the computers deciding to change things when attachments take place such as at Plymouth with 1A77.

 

802s can keep to HST timings in the South West but are unable to make up time when running late except for quicker station working, but (there is always a but) as crews get more used to them this should get even quicker, 800s struggle to keep time when working down this way because they are very slow on diesel and lose a lot of speed on the hills and need to use up the engineers and other allowances to arrive 'on time'.

 

We are slowly getting more used to them and my braking is getting later and harder, within reason, to try and make up time but it doesnt have much effect, at least I feel I am trying to make up time.

 

Like them or loathe them we are stuck with them so we had better get used to and accept them.

[talisman56]

On 13/03/2019 at 00:07, royaloak said:

When operating 2x5 coach sets together coaches A to E should be Country end, coaches G to L should be London end regardless of orientation of the sets, that doesnt stop the computers deciding to change things when attachments take place such as at Plymouth with 1A77.

 

 

If that is what should be happening, then in my experiences no-one (or thing) is getting it right, apart from the one occasion I mentioned in my post above...

[Ken.W]

On 25/02/2019 at 12:24, Mallard60022 said:

I understand we are talking the WR here however there are locomotives scattered about the ECML and districts; quite a collection around Peterborough, Donny and York. I think that is about it though other than Leeds?

 

On 25/02/2019 at 12:57, AMJ said:

Leeds for the rescue locos might be either covered by the one at Donny but I'd probably think that Freightliner might be able to rescue trains fairly quickly.

 

The last time I was in both Newcastle and Edinburgh there were locos possibly  on standby.

 

On EC, through all the various operators, we've have rescue locos stationed and manned at Kings X, Doncaster, Newcastle, and Edinburgh - all of EC's crew depots except for Leeds as it's so close to Doncaster

[Ken.W]

On 04/03/2019 at 08:17, jim.snowdon said:

There is, but how much can be altered depends on the nature of the change, how many (trains) you are ordering and how willing the manufacturer is willing to adjust his production line to accommodate such changes. Some variations are quite easy to accommodate, others are not.

 

Jim

 

It was certainly possible for IET sets to be specified with a buffet - EC sets do have them