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And First Class seating takes up more room per person than Standard Class, so fewer seats may be lost. However it is reasonable to ask what happens when a wheelchair passenger is travelling as part of a group. Anyway, at least wheelchairs are no longer banished to the brake van !

 

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It seems quite sensible to me. If only one wheelchair space is needed then put it in first, so at worst they get a free upgrade.

 

There may be occasions when the group is bigger than 2, but I'd expect that to be a minority of cases, and it's a good "most of the people most of the time" compromise.

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1 hour ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

Rather than poor design, have you considered the possibility that the decision to put wheelchair spaces in First and not Standard was made for good reasons?

 

Wheelchairs take up valuable seat space. If you are going to lose seat space, where’s the best place to put them?

Overcrowded trains generally have more free space in First, in my experience.

 

Ron

Oh of course & that is a good reason that I had not considered. However I do not have a designer's mind so I would probably not have even seen that thinking.

I suppose I was thinking more some bus type seats in Standard that could be folded up to accommodate a chair for which the person has paid the fare so it doesn't make a great deal of difference. But then I'm not an accountant either! :heat:

ATB

Phil

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1 hour ago, Zomboid said:

It seems quite sensible to me. If only one wheelchair space is needed then put it in first, so at worst they get a free upgrade.

 

There may be occasions when the group is bigger than 2, but I'd expect that to be a minority of cases, and it's a good "most of the people most of the time" compromise.

Actually if the idea was that a Standard fare payer could get upgraded for the Wheelchair space then I fully accept and applaud that. I shall have a quick look and see if the Accessible Toilet is also in that very area and it is so that is good planning indeed. The person I was chatting with on the LNER site had just said there is no wheelchair or buggy space on a 5 car Set and that is what set me looking.

P

Edited by Mallard60022
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On 01/07/2019 at 21:12, Mallard60022 said:

Ah, not sure as I have not used the  lofty bogs there since late last year. Thanks for that. SWMBO says the St P ones have always been free AFASKs but the upstairs ones at the X were pay to pee etc.

 

We could do another thread Rob. Complete guide to Station Bogs?

P

 

 

I always make for a bar on the station,  the facilities are always free. No matter which station.

 

 

 

 

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On 03/07/2019 at 12:43, Mallard60022 said:

Look I said there were no spaces in Standard and I had not been told there was the option of the upgrade. Why are you such a pedant that leaps in and throws a punch without giving information?  Could you not have told me that there are spaces in First and a free upgrade would be available? So to answer your damn question, no it is nor crap it is a damn fine offer.

Phil

If a passenger in a wheelchair turns up and the train is 5 or 10 coaches then the wheelchair user and their companion  will be accommodated in 1ST class whether Standard is full or empty, there is no other option hence the 'upgrade' line, I dont understand the difficulty in understanding that fact.

 

Oh and for information we think its stupid that there is a universal loo but no wheelchair space in Standard class as well.

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On 03/07/2019 at 17:08, Mallard60022 said:

Actually if the idea was that a Standard fare payer could get upgraded for the Wheelchair space then I fully accept and applaud that. I shall have a quick look and see if the Accessible Toilet is also in that very area and it is so that is good planning indeed. The person I was chatting with on the LNER site had just said there is no wheelchair or buggy space on a 5 car Set and that is what set me looking.

P

All GWRs IETs have a universal toilet at each end in the driving coaches, its just that on the 5 car sets the wheelchair space has been filled with seats instead, the 9 coach sets have a wheelchair space in Standard as well as 1ST.

 

All trains will need a wheelchair space come 01/01/2020 so if the LNER ones dont have it then things are going to get messy.

 

I think the LNER 5 coach ones have roughly the same layout as GWRs 5 car sets with a wheelchair space in 1st class.

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Being stock which has to comply with the EU Interoperability Directive, the 1/1/20 deadline in the UK's Rail Vehicle Accessibility Regulations may not have any force. However, I would be surprised if the EU's rules for People of Reduced Mobility did not mandate provision of a wheelchair space on all new build stock.

 

Jim

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The LNER 5-car sets DO have wheelchair spaces, but they aren't in Standard Class.  They're in First Class Coach E (or M if coupled to another set), adjacent to a universally accessible toilet.  These sets have another universally accessible toilet, in Standard Class  Coach A (or F), but there are no wheelchair spaces to go with it in Standard Class.

 

The 9-car sets have universally accessible toilets and wheelchair spaces in Coach M (First Class) and Coach A (Standard Class).

 

https://www.lner.co.uk/globalassets/_page-structure/azuma-content/azuma-seat-maps_pdf.pdf

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, royaloak said:

 

Oh and for information we think its stupid that there is a universal loo but no wheelchair space in Standard class as well.

Not sure I'd go with that. The universal bog is useful to more than just wheelchair users. Baby change is in there for a start, and other disabilities exist which don't have an associated wheelchair but need additional space beyond that provided in a normal broom cupboard toilet.

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The majority of the Agility Trains East fleet (operated by OLR/LNER) have provision for wheelchair uses in both Standard and 1st class:

800/1 13 units with Standard and 1st wheelchair spaces

800/2 10 units with 1st wheelchair space

801/1  12 units with 1st wheelchair space

801/2 30 units with Standard and 1st wheelchair spaces

 

Thus, 64% of LNER Azuma trains have wheelchair spaces in both classes. For the 36% of trains, passengers who require a wheelchair space are upgraded (with companion) too 1st. These 5-car units, shall mainly split en-route and serve destination such as Sunderland, Bradford, Harrogate, Hull and Lincoln (occasionally Inverness/Stirling). 

 

The Agility Trains West fleet (operated by First/GWR) are more mixed:

800/0 36 units with 1st wheelchair space

800/3 21 units with Standard and 1st wheelchair spaces

Plus, the Eversholt fleet (operated by First/GWR) are also more mixed:

802/0 22 units with 1st wheelchair spaces

802/1 14 units with Standard and 1st wheelchair spaces

 

Sadly, 38% of GWR IET trains have wheelchair spaces in both classes. The majority of the fleet (62%) are 5-cars where passengers who require a wheelchair space are upgraded (with companion) too 1st.

 

WHY this arrangement? As someone who is disabled myself, I get rather annoyed by this conservative/old fashioned view point around inequality. I travel 1st class on long distance trains, as not only can I afford to, but I much prefer the professional environment where I can work as I travel! If I was a wheelchair user, I would EXPECT (as my fundamental human right) to be able to travel in 1st class if I wanted to (it should be a human right to dine on the GWR Pullman, everyone needs that heaven in their life!). Thus, on 5-car units the original TTS document, mandated the wheelchair space area would be provided in 1st in the name of equality for all. Here here!

 

You shall see the same set up with other similar new units - straight to my mind is the class 397. It is the right thing to do on 'Intercity' units. 

 

(Why so many 5-cars on Agility Trains West (800s) and Eversholts (802s)? Simply because the former were ordered based on the timetable modelled for the IEP and the latter to allow half-hourly Cornwall services. Remember, the Eversholt 802 order included option for many more vehicles and yes, it is more than possible over time the 22 x 802/0s shall be lengthened - BUT we need to see how the December 2019 timetable works out first!!).

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Very interesting and all because a woman on the LNER site I was looking at said and insisted there were no Wheelchair or buggy spaces on a LNER Five car set, her husband or brother or dad  (same surname?) also insisted this was the case and the very helpful (usually) LNER contact did not respond by explaining that an upgrade to First for a wheelchair user would be possible if that space was available. When I tried to revisit the site and give her the good news I was unable to repost on that site!

I still think that the provision of more 'adaptable spaces' would have been a better plan as there could easily be more than one chair user and companions on any journey and certainly folk with kids that might need buggy space in the coach. 

I've not heard the term Agility Trains. may I ask where that originates please?   Well, you learn something every day. Some big Company in London. Seeing this has opened a whole new view on things.

Hey ho. You can't please all of the people all of the time and I'm giving up now.

 

15 hours ago, royaloak said:

All GWRs IETs have a universal toilet at each end in the driving coaches, its just that on the 5 car sets the wheelchair space has been filled with seats instead, the 9 coach sets have a wheelchair space in Standard as well as 1ST.

 

All trains will need a wheelchair space come 01/01/2020 so if the LNER ones dont have it then things are going to get messy.

 

I think the LNER 5 coach ones have roughly the same layout as GWRs 5 car sets with a wheelchair space in 1st class.

 

On the LNER site they have train seating diagrams so that one can see the layouts of all their trains. I have no difficulty in understanding those diagrams.

Not looked to see if GW have the same info.
 

Phil

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1 hour ago, Oldddudders said:

Found on Totnes platform a few weeks back. 

 

IMG_2180.jpg.dd033bb68ad92285d8471d2fa97ba9c8.jpg

So these are Intercity Express Trains (IEP, of course....slow I am:blush:) then? OK that's good by me. Quite helpful diagrams as far as I can see.

 

P

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1 hour ago, Oldddudders said:

Found on Totnes platform a few weeks back. 

 

IMG_2180.jpg.dd033bb68ad92285d8471d2fa97ba9c8.jpg

That matches the original leaflet put out when the trains were first introduced.  Regrettably although things seem to have improved judging by my more recent observations there are still instances of 2x5 car trains incirrectly formed and trains of both variants (i.e. 9 car and 2x5) running in reverse formation.  Hence the new 'zone' lettering added at many (?all) GWR stations served by IETs - as previously shown in this thread.  

 

Incidentally for those in the know I have seen on several occasions when I've looked at them that those very handy 'Staff Information' screens now at a number of GWR stations have shown  IET formation variations (in the right hand column).

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While the Zone numbers on GWR stations are intended to be helpful, I'm not sure they really are. At Oxford for example, Cross Country services are now announced as 'First Class in Zone x', instead of at front or rear as before, which means walking along the platform looking down to find the number ! At least the Staff Information screens still give train formations, as Stationmaster says.

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3 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

That matches the original leaflet put out when the trains were first introduced.  Regrettably although things seem to have improved judging by my more recent observations there are still instances of 2x5 car trains incirrectly formed and trains of both variants (i.e. 9 car and 2x5) running in reverse formation.  Hence the new 'zone' lettering added at many (?all) GWR stations served by IETs - as previously shown in this thread.  

 

Incidentally for those in the know I have seen on several occasions when I've looked at them that those very handy 'Staff Information' screens now at a number of GWR stations have shown  IET formation variations (in the right hand column).

Zone Lettering has appeared on Retford Platforms as well. A little Elf comes and does those at night I am told, and Safety keeps a look out.

So far it would appear that the Zoomers on the LNER services have been mostly running in the  way displayed. I don't think there are any 5s on public service yet? They will be fun when they start.

Mike, do you think the Staff will get warning if a set is reversed so they can act accordingly? Retford Platform Staff often seem surprised at back to frontos? 

Ar$£

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33 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

Zone Lettering has appeared on Retford Platforms as well. A little Elf comes and does those at night I am told, and Safety keeps a look out.

So far it would appear that the Zoomers on the LNER services have been mostly running in the  way displayed. I don't think there are any 5s on public service yet? They will be fun when they start.

Mike, do you think the Staff will get warning if a set is reversed so they can act accordingly? Retford Platform Staff often seem surprised at back to frontos? 

Ar$£

Looks like LNER might have an information dissemination hole there Phil because judging by my experiences there Retford is not in something akin to the Bermuda Triangle where whatever goes in doesn't come out.

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LNER don't have as many opportunities as GWR for trains to end up facing the wrong way. Indeed I don't think I've ever seen a reverse formation ECML train, though no doubt such things have happened. Whereas the GWML is rife with such things. It was all HSTs when I commuted that way and they were frequently backwards too, so not just an IET issue in my experience.

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On 30/06/2019 at 17:50, Zomboid said:

Hitachi are no doubt highly liable for the performance of these trains, and so to protect that they don't want anyone else mucking around with them. I'd probably be the same, if I was going to be penalised for things going wrong then at the very least I'd want to actually be at fault for them.

 

Thats not how things work though, if it’s a train fault, or something maintenance have done, then yes it is ‘Fleet’ (which is now Hitachi) that’s responsible.

lf however, it’s something that we’ve done, then it’s the ‘Operations’ dept responsible.

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1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

Looks like LNER might have an information dissemination hole there Phil because judging by my experiences there Retford is not in something akin to the Bermuda Triangle where whatever goes in doesn't come out.

Actually Mike I went to the Station this morning to 'see off' an elderly relative and one of the Staff who is very customer focused had the info that the HT 180 was in reverse so that she would not have to go rushing about the Platform looking for the coach. They usually make an announcement when they get this info and I suspect they did but I left before it arrived. In my experience LNER (and previous operators) are pretty good at sorting stuff, even at the X when things go ti#s up!

P

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On 02/07/2019 at 12:49, Mallard60022 said:

I believe the 180s are 'serviced' at Heaton (Newcastle)? yes, HT's 180s are really falling to bits, well catching fire really, on a regular basis. I do hope they can struggle on until December and their fleet of 800s should be coming on stream.

By the way I 'waved' twice but we were going very quickly indeed the return trip :bye: and I couldn't observe the loco's near the 'Dagenham' sidings.

ATB

Phil

 

Grand Central’s 180s are serviced at Heaton, but don’t think I’ve ever seen an HT one there.

 

I do wonder though if HT’s sets are actually serviced anywhere...

There was major disruption on the route Saturday three weeks ago when, to add to a serious signalling failure in the Shaftholme area (Emergency Special Working was required), another HT 180 decided to have an engine fire further south, the third in recent months I believe. I’ve never heard of any such incident on GC’s ‘identical’ sets

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38 minutes ago, Ken.W said:

 

Grand Central’s 180s are serviced at Heaton, but don’t think I’ve ever seen an HT one there.

 

I’ve never heard of any such incident on GC’s ‘identical’ sets

 

The Grand Central 180s that work the Bradford Interchange-London Kings Cross route are serviced at Crofton. 

 

GC 180108 suffered an engine fire on Sunday 2nd June whilst working ECS from Crofton to Bradford Interchange. 

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