Class 800 - Updates

[Oldddudders]

1 hour ago, Zomboid said:

Which would be great if we wanted a train from 40 years ago.

Or if the wise-heads with accumulated knowledge from BR days had not been pensioned off as being too expensive and old fashioned.

[royaloak]

On 25/08/2019 at 22:07, Zomboid said:

They were pretty universally loathed though, weren't they?

Only by enthusiasts, 'normal' passengers loved them.

[Bomag]

48 minutes ago, royaloak said:

Only by enthusiasts, 'normal' passengers loved them.

 

Especially if they had a cold or hayfever!

[Coryton]

11 hours ago, Zomboid said:

Which would be great if we wanted a train from 40 years ago.

 

I think that's a bit of a harsh response.

 

A 125 mph electric unit train is not exactly the innovation the HST was in its time. 125 mph in the UK? No. 125 mph diesel anywhere? No. Intercity unit train in the UK? Not much before the HST.

 

Now compare the IET. Apart from being bi-mode what does it do a Pendolono doesn't? Apart from not tilting?

 

OK the bi-mode bit is more novel but doesn't excuse reservation systems that don't work or toilet doors that fail when the train isn't level.

 

I think the problem is not the novelty but because trains are just so much more complex these days. 

[Zomboid]

You can't achieve much of what an 800 does if you use "proven technology" from the past. So the fact that Hitachi have been making trains for 100 years isn't really relevant.

 

There's clearly the usual niggles that you get with new trains, and they're different in nature to what has happened before.

 

I suspect there's actually a lot of innovation in there, but most of it will not be obvious to anyone other than Hitachi.

[rodent279]

And I don't think we can down play too much the "dead hand" of the DfT in much of the IET/IEP specs. I suspect if GWR & LNER (and it's predecessors) and other interested parties had been left to their own devices, and maybe collaborated, on the IEP, the rolling stock may have turned out differently. 

[iands]

1 hour ago, Zomboid said:

You can't achieve much of what an 800 does if you use "proven technology" from the past. So the fact that Hitachi have been making trains for 100 years isn't really relevant.

 

Except in that 100 years or so, they will have seen, experienced, adopted or even introduced "new innovations" themselves, so not entirely irrelevant.

[caradoc]

2 hours ago, Coryton said:

 

I think that's a bit of a harsh response.

 

A 125 mph electric unit train is not exactly the innovation the HST was in its time. 125 mph in the UK? No. 125 mph diesel anywhere? No. Intercity unit train in the UK? Not much before the HST.

 

Now compare the IET. Apart from being bi-mode what does it do a Pendolono doesn't? Apart from not tilting?

 

OK the bi-mode bit is more novel but doesn't excuse reservation systems that don't work or toilet doors that fail when the train isn't level.

 

I think the problem is not the novelty but because trains are just so much more complex these days. 

 

Not sure what kind of innovation is left for new trains: Maglev - Done, Monorail - Done, Tilting - Done, Bi-mode - Done. 

 

And while the HST was, and still, is a magnificent train, was it really that much of an innovation over say the Blue Pullman, or the Edinburgh/Glasgow push-pulls, simply having more power to go faster ? 

 

[lmsforever]

A question for Royal Oak is there a marked difference between driving an HST and an 800 ie is the 800 a more relaxed drive etc and do you like the 800?

[Coryton]

7 hours ago, Zomboid said:

You can't achieve much of what an 800 does if you use "proven technology" from the past. So the fact that Hitachi have been making trains for 100 years isn't really relevant.

 

There's clearly the usual niggles that you get with new trains, and they're different in nature to what has happened before.

 

I suspect there's actually a lot of innovation in there, but most of it will not be obvious to anyone other than Hitachi.

 Genuine question. Apart from being a bi-mode, what does an IET do that couldn't be achieved with proven technology?

 

It really isn't obvious to me.

 

If, for example, the reservation system linked to wifi, or had seat sensors, or en-route updates, I can see why it might take a while to get working.

 

But - while it's a really nice implementation, I can't see what's so novel about it that has required well over a year for it to work properly.

 

 

 

[Coryton]

4 hours ago, caradoc said:

 

Not sure what kind of innovation is left for new trains: Maglev - Done, Monorail - Done, Tilting - Done, Bi-mode - Done. 

 

And while the HST was, and still, is a magnificent train, was it really that much of an innovation over say the Blue Pullman, or the Edinburgh/Glasgow push-pulls, simply having more power to go faster ? 

 

I'm not saying the IET should be innovative. 

 

As for the HST, I'd say the innovation was putting together existing ideas to make something that was novel. And very successful. 

 

But it still was faster than anything in service before and could perhaps be excused some teething problems.

[The Stationmaster]

1 minute ago, Coryton said:

I'm not saying the IET should be innovative. 

 

As for the HST, I'd say the innovation was putting together existing ideas to make something that was novel. And very successful. 

 

But it still was faster than anything in service before and could perhaps be excused some teething problems.

However some of the 'teething problems' such as the cooler group in particular and various troubles with the engines ought really not to be excused.   But in terms of passenger amenities they were a big step forward even if they were unreliable for sometime, especially in hot weather. 

[Zomboid]

1 hour ago, Coryton said:

Genuine question. Apart from being a bi-mode, what does an IET do that couldn't be achieved with proven technology?

Depends what you mean by proven. Each element is nothing especially new in itself AFAIK, but the integrated package is something that's never been done before. It's always the interfaces where things fall over.

 

I was really thinking of things like the acceleration (notwithstanding the lack of installed power on diesel), reliable and effective AC and so on which you'd never have achieved using 30 year old tech. Even in things like electrical efficiency - a class 91 is a highly reactive load on the power supply, which is much less efficient than modern variable frequency drives, where reactance is very low.

[Indomitable026]

800203 & 800206 testing/ training at Retford just now.

 

[Indomitable026]

And at Donny

 

 

10 coaches looks really quite long...

[The Stationmaster]

4 hours ago, Indomitable026 said:

 

 

10 coaches looks really quite long...

Over one eighth of a mile when you think about it in proper measurement terms.  I wonder how many football pitch  or Olympic swimming pool lengths that equals?

[Richard E]

43 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Over one eighth of a mile when you think about it in proper measurement terms.  I wonder how many football pitch  or Olympic swimming pool lengths that equals?

 

A 10 coach Class 800 is roughly 260m long (26m per coach I believe)

 

Very roughly 2 to 3 football pitches (a pitch may be 100yds to 130yds long).

 

And roughly 5.2 Olympic Swimming Pool lengths (50m, 164' long or 53.66 yds).

[Titan]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Over one eighth of a mile when you think about it in proper measurement terms.  I wonder how many football pitch  or Olympic swimming pool lengths that equals?

 

Thought the universal measurement for length/height was double decker buses?

Edited August 28, 2019 by Titan

[Mark Saunders]

1 minute ago, Titan said:

 

Thought the universal measurement for length/height was double decker buses?

 

Why when the railway is actually measured in Cricket pitches (chains)!

 

Mark Saunders

[rodent279]

20 minutes ago, Mark Saunders said:

 

Why when the railway is actually measured in Cricket pitches (chains)!

 

Mark Saunders

So a 10 car IET is about 13 runs. 3 fours and a single should do it.

[eastwestdivide]

30 minutes ago, Titan said:

 

Thought the universal measurement for length/height was double decker buses?

Area: football pitches, then Wales

Length: also football pitches

Height: double decker buses, then Nelson's Column

Volume: Olympic swimming pools

[Mark Saunders]

13 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

So a 10 car IET is about 13 runs. 3 fours and a single should do it.

 

So you can remember the rush along the platform Kings Cross when the gate opened for boarding! 

[Chris116]

23 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

So a 10 car IET is about 13 runs. 3 fours and a single should do it.

Two sixes and a single would be less effort! 

[rodent279]

28 minutes ago, Chris116 said:

Two sixes and a single would be less effort! 

Agree, but 3 fours might be easier!

[31A]

I see Hull Trains have come up with a very suitable name for theirs:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ANd-4wGGzs&feature=share&fbclid=IwAR3EGaYMjDBiLRO2EGq6mzxPMIA_vz-G-u66gZZAW4taJ01KHoZts6Vsj4E