Class 800 - Updates

[The Stationmaster]

On 04/09/2019 at 08:15, Coryton said:

 

I suspect we've seen with the reservation system that pushing out software updates is a very slow business.

 

Software changes sound easy compared to hardware changes...but it's much harder to know what unintended consequences there might be.

 

Change a component in a bogie and it's unlikely to stop the pantograph lifting. Change one line of software and who knows what unexpected thing it might do due to a bug elsewhere that is suddenly revealed.

It took at least 16 goes on the 373 Eurostars to get the software sorted and that was over several years and excludes any X.1 suffix etc changes to the main rewrites.  There have been rewrites for the GWR 80X fleet but even they are satyng it's an ongoing process.

 

Billing the brake pads to NR (if that is the case) is I suppose not entirely surprising where it relates to a train having to run on diesel because there is no overhead power.  But otherwise it is surely a design issue which means Hitachi should be carrying the cost?

 

Incidentally yesterday's observations suggest that a number of sets have got themselves back the wrong way round for whatever reason.

[royaloak]

4 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

This is monstrous. Providing trains that do not behave predictably under braking is a safety issue, when passengers are on their feet ready to disembark, and may be subjected to a sudden stop. Is there a whistle to be blown here? 

Reading back, my posts make it sound a lot worse than it is and by modifying our driving style we can work around it, my argument is why should we have to do that when it is a know issue which has not been rectified. 

 

It only happens around 10-15 mph so any visions of trains careering down the tracks at 100 mph with no brakes are rather wide of the mark.

[Covkid]

13 minutes ago, royaloak said:

Reading back, my posts make it sound a lot worse than it is and by modifying our driving style we can work around it, my argument is why should we have to do that when it is a know issue which has not been rectified. 

 

It only happens around 10-15 mph so any visions of trains careering down the tracks at 100 mph with no brakes are rather wide of the mark.

 

 

The point though is that from 15mph down to a stand is the critical time for a driver to judge their braking for stop boards, signals, AWS magnets and TPWS grids, particularly if the train barely fits the platform. 

 

The bit I don't get is, the blending was isolated for a reason, but that reason hasn't been resolved, so why ?   

[royaloak]

2 minutes ago, Covkid said:

The bit I don't get is, the blending was isolated for a reason, but that reason hasn't been resolved, so why ?   

I have asked the same question and the reply was "you are a professional driver so should be able to work around the problem", my reply of "why should we when its a known problem which hasnt been rectified" was met with the same answer, so I replied "okay I will comply with the GWR defensive driving policy so expect lots of delay enquiries", and I walked out.

[jamie92208]

2 hours ago, Covkid said:

 

 

Yes. You are right.  I had a senior moment !!

Just to be pedantic there was regenerative braking on the 1930's designed class 76's. I was once told that two trains coming downhill took one train up. If there were no trains to receive the generated piwer it got diverted to big resistance grids at the rear of the substation.  However hiw the vacumn and later air brakes were blended is a mystery to me.

 

Jamie

[jim.snowdon]

27 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

Just to be pedantic there was regenerative braking on the 1930's designed class 76's. I was once told that two trains coming downhill took one train up. If there were no trains to receive the generated piwer it got diverted to big resistance grids at the rear of the substation.  However hiw the vacumn and later air brakes were blended is a mystery to me.

 

Jamie

Integration of the two was almost certainly in the hands of the driver. The regenerative braking was controlled, by hand, through the master controller, with the train brake controlled separately. When they were built, most of trains they were built for had no power braking at all. 

I can't comment on the later AC electrics, but a fairly big step was the fitting of blended rheostatic:air braking, with load sensing, to be controlled by an automatic driver on the Victoria Line stock in the mid-1960s. (The stock might have been delivered in 1967, but the development work was probably around two years or more ahead of that.)

 

Jim 

[jim.snowdon]

On 4 September 2019 at 08:15, Coryton said:

 

I suspect we've seen with the reservation system that pushing out software updates is a very slow business.

 

Software changes sound easy compared to hardware changes...but it's much harder to know what unintended consequences there might be.

 

Change a component in a bogie and it's unlikely to stop the pantograph lifting. Change one line of software and who knows what unexpected thing it might do due to a bug elsewhere that is suddenly revealed.

Which is why it is never a good thing to try putting too many systems in the same microprocessor driven basket. Better to put the separate functions into self-contained modules and manage the interfaces between them. Hopefully Hitachi have had the common sense to do that.

 

Jim

[david.hill64]

2 hours ago, royaloak said:

I have asked the same question and the reply was "you are a professional driver so should be able to work around the problem", my reply of "why should we when its a known problem which hasnt been rectified" was met with the same answer, so I replied "okay I will comply with the GWR defensive driving policy so expect lots of delay enquiries", and I walked out.

This is a dreadful reaction from management. Presumably you have a reporting system for 'near misses'. If 'you' got it wrong on the approach to buffer stops the consequences could be significant.

[royaloak]

Words have been had.

[Covkid]

21 hours ago, royaloak said:

I have asked the same question and the reply was "you are a professional driver so should be able to work around the problem", my reply of "why should we when its a known problem which hasnt been rectified" was met with the same answer, so I replied "okay I will comply with the GWR defensive driving policy so expect lots of delay enquiries", and I walked out.

 

18 hours ago, david.hill64 said:

This is a dreadful reaction from management. Presumably you have a reporting system for 'near misses'. If 'you' got it wrong on the approach to buffer stops the consequences could be significant.

 

 

What "Royaloak" hasn't said (probably because he wouldn't rise to that kind of bait anyway) is the salary jealousy which afflicts a number of managerial types and which may be at play here. Because drivers generally have good salaries - sometimes above many junior managers, there is an insidious attitude that drivers get paid to ............ (fill the blank).

 

The drivers in many cases would much rather all the nannying devices be left off so they can use their skills and experience to drive the train properly. ;

 

 

 

  

Edited September 6, 2019 by Covkid

[Siberian Snooper]

I travelled to Reading yesterday on the 11.00 ex Plymouth, it should have been the 09.00 ex Penzance but the 5 car unit failed at Penzance. 

 

I had backache by Tavistock Junction and  Sciatica by Hermerdon. On some units the seats are reasonable and others like this one are diabolical. 

 

We had a stop around Bruton and managed to claw back some of the loss by Reading where I alighted.

 

The return trip was on the 14.03 ex Paddington which was 15 Late starting, the reason given when I joined the train was that the two 5 car units were marshalled with what should have been the Cornish portion at the London end so the reset the coach numbers of the units for the correct orientation, by which time there are passengers now sitting in the wrong portion. It was 13 down at Reading and was 17 down by the time we arrived at Plymouth.

 

At least the seats were reasonable on the bit I was sat in.

 

 

[Coryton]

On 05/09/2019 at 14:33, jim.snowdon said:

Which is why it is never a good thing to try putting too many systems in the same microprocessor driven basket. Better to put the separate functions into self-contained modules and manage the interfaces between them. Hopefully Hitachi have had the common sense to do that.

 

While that certainly reduces the opportunities for unwanted interactions between different parts of the software, it still doesn't reduce it completely.

 

If you change one module and that changes the messages between modules, or even just the timing of the messages, it can still reveal a previously hidden problem in a different module - even if they are all running on entirely separate hardware.

 

 

[Coryton]

On 05/09/2019 at 14:25, jim.snowdon said:

Integration of the two was almost certainly in the hands of the driver. The regenerative braking was controlled, by hand, through the master controller, with the train brake controlled separately. When they were built, most of trains they were built for had no power braking at all. 

 

From my copy of "Top-Link Locomotives", describing an EM2 (many years off being a class 77):

"..he pointed to a chromium-plated handle working on a quadrant marked 'Regen'. 'That', he said, 'is the control for regenerative braking'."

 

It then explains that regenerative braking works down to 16 mph (but the "electric wallahs" intend to bring it down to 2 mph eventually), and that if the regenerative braking fails the vacuum brake comes on automatically.

 

I imagine that the 76's were the same.

 

 

 

[Gwiwer]

A recent need to travel west resulted in more feedback being forwarded to GWR.  They have yet to reply but it's only a week later.  

 

I travelled down overnight on the re-seated Night Riviera stock.  The seats are not quite as bad as the 8xx series but nothing like as comfortable as they once were.  More have been squeezed in, most face the same way (backwards in the Down direction) and there is less legroom.   Notwithstanding all that and probably because I had the foresight to take eye shades and ear plugs I managed a decent night's sleep and wasn't woken at any point.  Previous trips on the seats have left me struggling to sleep and waking at most stops.

 

The return was on a 9-car 802 set from Penzance to Paddington.  The Sunday 13.00 off PNZ was advertised, if that is the right term, as having no catering throughout.  All well and good and we were warned before boarding but there is no alternative for two hours before and after for London passengers.  There is also a caravan outside the station (where the cheap cafe over the road doesn't open on Sundays) but offerings were very limited.  In fact nothing more substantial than the GWR trolley service would have provided but the coffee was better.  Crisps or cakes if you wanted anything to eat - that was it.  So for 5 1/2 hours we went without unless we had self-catered. 

 

The seats were as hard as ever and I was feeling uncomfortable by Camborne, numb and aching by Truro.  The reservations seemed awry.  Card labels were in use but the traffic-light system was also switched on.  The two didn't match.  This resulted in the only apparently unreserved seats being in one coach which had a dozen labels but no red lights.  The dozen labels turned out to be a group boarding at Truro whose seats had already been taken by others.

 

As expected the train filled right up.  A few passengers had to stand from Exeter.  A grumpy "Luggage Handler" (the wording on his tabard) roamed up and down removing items from the doorways and gangways to the annoyance of passengers then separated from their bags.  Until Plymouth no staff member had come through the train; beyond Plymouth we had multiple staff members on board though no tickets were ever checked for the entire journey.  The train was unbearably hot and with no trolley on board there was no way to get so much as a bottle of water.  This was rectified at Plymouth where several "crates" of water were put aboard and PA announcements made advising where they could be found for complimentary collection.  At least we had water and it was badly needed.  

 

A week on and my knees are still suffering from the trip.  I wasn't able to get comfortable at all which I find unreasonable for such a long trip and the train was full, which is perfectly reasonable, so I wasn't able to move around either.  I spoke with three members of staff before or during the journey.  None apologised for the lack of catering even when I raised it as a concern.  Two said this was now normal for a Sunday as there was "no incentive to work".  Surely being employed is incentive enough?  

 

I wonder what might have happened had there been no water put on board.  No opening windows, the air-con set too high, several hundred passengers contributing body heat and the alarm pulled because someone faints .....  

 

These trains need to be fixed.  The concept is OK, though perhaps doesn't work ideally as a local train in the west country, but the daily performance and comfort are woeful.  

[Gwiwer]

15 minutes ago, Coryton said:

 

From my copy of "Top-Link Locomotives", describing an EM2 (many years off being a class 77):

"..he pointed to a chromium-plated handle working on a quadrant marked 'Regen'. 'That', he said, 'is the control for regenerative braking'."

 

It then explains that regenerative braking works down to 16 mph (but the "electric wallahs" intend to bring it down to 2 mph eventually), and that if the regenerative braking fails the vacuum brake comes on automatically.

 

I imagine that the 76's were the same.

 

 

 

Off this topic but the 76s also had regen and helped each other out when ever possible on the big banks of the Woodhead route.  The same system was built into the NSWGR 46-class electrics for working the Blue Mountains route in Australia and which could be driven "motoring in regen" - that is with current both driving the locomotive and returning to the system.  Could the 76 / 77 locos motor in regen?

[royaloak]

1 hour ago, Siberian Snooper said:

I travelled to Reading yesterday on the 11.00 ex Plymouth, it should have been the 09.00 ex Penzance but the 5 car unit failed at Penzance. 

I was the mug who brought that in from Laira and parked it at the London end of then platform because nobody told me about the cancellation of the incoming service from Penzance, hence the walk up the platform, I did wonder why there were so many passengers getting off the cross Country service and it was only when the Train manager arrived that I found out but by then it was too late to move it down the platform,

 

Were you the one who had a quick look around the cab?

[royaloak]

28 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

 None apologised for the lack of catering even when I raised it as a concern.  Two said this was now normal for a Sunday as there was "no incentive to work".  Surely being employed is incentive enough?   

It is indeed, but that is not the same thing as working overtime on a Sunday knowing you are going to get sh-t loads of earache because of the minimal provision offered even though you are doing the best with what you have got, or do you take your day off, no earache and time with the family?

Which would you chose?

 

For information I dont have to work any Sundays either but I do because as far as I am concerned its a 7 day railway so it needs staff 7 days, of course I am locked away in the front so dont have to deal with the earache, last year I worked 35 Sundays.

[Siberian Snooper]

9 hours ago, royaloak said:

I was the mug who brought that in from Laira and parked it at the London end of then platform because nobody told me about the cancellation of the incoming service from Penzance, hence the walk up the platform, I did wonder why there were so many passengers getting off the cross Country service and it was only when the Train manager arrived that I found out but by then it was too late to move it down the platform,

 

Were you the one who had a quick look around the cab?

 

No it weren't me, I saw several people hanging around the rear cab, so you may have been one of them.

 

 

[magic_monkey09]

On 7 September 2019 at 23:29, Gwiwer said:

A recent need to travel west resulted in more feedback being forwarded to GWR.  They have yet to reply but it's only a week later.  

 

I travelled down overnight on the re-seated Night Riviera stock.  The seats are not quite as bad as the 8xx series but nothing like as comfortable as they once were.  More have been squeezed in, most face the same way (backwards in the Down direction) and there is less legroom.   Notwithstanding all that and probably because I had the foresight to take eye shades and ear plugs I managed a decent night's sleep and wasn't woken at any point.  Previous trips on the seats have left me struggling to sleep and waking at most stops.

 

The return was on a 9-car 802 set from Penzance to Paddington.  The Sunday 13.00 off PNZ was advertised, if that is the right term, as having no catering throughout.  All well and good and we were warned before boarding but there is no alternative for two hours before and after for London passengers.  There is also a caravan outside the station (where the cheap cafe over the road doesn't open on Sundays) but offerings were very limited.  In fact nothing more substantial than the GWR trolley service would have provided but the coffee was better.  Crisps or cakes if you wanted anything to eat - that was it.  So for 5 1/2 hours we went without unless we had self-catered. 

 

The seats were as hard as ever and I was feeling uncomfortable by Camborne, numb and aching by Truro.  The reservations seemed awry.  Card labels were in use but the traffic-light system was also switched on.  The two didn't match.  This resulted in the only apparently unreserved seats being in one coach which had a dozen labels but no red lights.  The dozen labels turned out to be a group boarding at Truro whose seats had already been taken by others.

 

As expected the train filled right up.  A few passengers had to stand from Exeter.  A grumpy "Luggage Handler" (the wording on his tabard) roamed up and down removing items from the doorways and gangways to the annoyance of passengers then separated from their bags.  Until Plymouth no staff member had come through the train; beyond Plymouth we had multiple staff members on board though no tickets were ever checked for the entire journey.  The train was unbearably hot and with no trolley on board there was no way to get so much as a bottle of water.  This was rectified at Plymouth where several "crates" of water were put aboard and PA announcements made advising where they could be found for complimentary collection.  At least we had water and it was badly needed.  

 

A week on and my knees are still suffering from the trip.  I wasn't able to get comfortable at all which I find unreasonable for such a long trip and the train was full, which is perfectly reasonable, so I wasn't able to move around either.  I spoke with three members of staff before or during the journey.  None apologised for the lack of catering even when I raised it as a concern.  Two said this was now normal for a Sunday as there was "no incentive to work".  Surely being employed is incentive enough?  

 

I wonder what might have happened had there been no water put on board.  No opening windows, the air-con set too high, several hundred passengers contributing body heat and the alarm pulled because someone faints .....  

 

These trains need to be fixed.  The concept is OK, though perhaps doesn't work ideally as a local train in the west country, but the daily performance and comfort are woeful.  

Everybody said similar things about the HST's when they were refurbished. I recall complaints such as claustrophobic, cramped, cold colour scheme, lightning too bright, lack of tables, seats too upright and high backed making it hard to spot vacant seats amongst other niggles such as plug sockets on tables being unsuitable  for larger plugs. 

The IET seats are a tad firm (I'm yet to try the new sleeper seats) but I believe they are designed to aid posture as well as having more tables, more legroom, more seats overall with lower backs and more natural lighting. The overheads are designed lower to accommodate larger items of luggage as well as the vestibule end ones and dual purpose bike racks. Probably explains the staff rearranging luggage (the trolley won't get through if passengers block the aisles and is a fire/trip hazard). Regarding temperature it's supposed to be self adjusting according to loadings but can also be electronically turned up or down if you mention it to the train manager.  

 

Catering wise only new recruits on the newer contracts are Sunday's inclusive of the working week and those that opted for the higher pay package after the restructuring. Existing members of staff are still Sunday's out leading to some shortages. This was the same with HST's and sometimes led to buffets being closed for the entire journey. If single manned now staff have to serve first class first before doing the whole train or do a static service if the train becomes too busy. Sunday Coverage will improve with new intakes on the new contracts. Crates of water and biscuits are also kept onboard in the emergency cupboard in the event of aircon failure, breakdowns etc or lack of catering. Lead Catering staff are required as the second man on 5+5 formations so if anything is going to go uncovered on a Sunday it will be 9 car work. 

 

Revenue wise tickets are checked periodically throughout the journey by the train manager only (first class being the priority) and if running a busy 5+5 formation can take a while. This involves crews swapping ends if short staffed. (neither unit is to be left unstaffed whilst in motion). 

 

Weekends always seem carnage compared to the more predictable weekday commuter rushes. Many times in the past I've seen HST's with people sat up the aisle in first class on weekends nothing unique to IET's. 

 

 

 

[Luke Piewalker]

I've seen about 10 Azumas in the past 24 hrs. Haven't managed to identify a single one.

[Bomag]

12 hours ago, magic_monkey09 said:

Everybody said similar things about the HST's when they were refurbished. I recall complaints such as claustrophobic, cramped, cold colour scheme, lightning too bright, lack of tables, seats too upright and high backed making it hard to spot vacant seats amongst other niggles such as plug sockets on tables being unsuitable  for larger plugs. 

The IET seats are a tad firm (I'm yet to try the new sleeper seats) but I believe they are designed to aid posture as well as having more tables, more legroom, more seats overall with lower backs and more natural lighting. The overheads are designed lower to accommodate larger items of luggage as well as the vestibule end ones and dual purpose bike racks. Probably explains the staff rearranging luggage (the trolley won't get through if passengers block the aisles and is a fire/trip hazard). Regarding temperature it's supposed to be self adjusting according to loadings but can also be electronically turned up or down if you mention it to the train manager.  

 

 

I think the problems with reaction to 800s is that some people are comparing them to previous trains and others are looking at them on thier own merits. If compared to the awful FGW HSTs then they are not that bad, compared to anything else they are not good. For the Azumas the only good aspect which 'real' people seem to have commneted on is that the air con is more reliable than either HSTs or Mk4s are currently acheiving (possibly due to reduced maintanance).

[magic_monkey09]

4 hours ago, Bomag said:

 

I think the problems with reaction to 800s is that some people are comparing them to previous trains and others are looking at them on thier own merits. If compared to the awful FGW HSTs then they are not that bad, compared to anything else they are not good. For the Azumas the only good aspect which 'real' people seem to have commneted on is that the air con is more reliable than either HSTs or Mk4s are currently acheiving (possibly due to reduced maintanance).

Indeed and they are still running to a HST timetable and not being used to their full potential as of yet. The December timetable change will cut out Reading on several long distance services with many services running fast. This will give long distance passengers more chance of a seat and plenty of room. Also it will give the trolleys a longer stretch without pausing for station stops or getting blocked in by standing commuters only going to Reading. 

Azuma’s seem to get a better press than the GWR IET’s but I guess time will tell once HST’s and Mk4 sets are gone from the ECML. 

[royaloak]

50 minutes ago, magic_monkey09 said:

Indeed and they are still running to a HST timetable and not being used to their full potential as of yet. The December timetable change will cut out Reading on several long distance services with many services running fast. This will give long distance passengers more chance of a seat and plenty of room. Also it will give the trolleys a longer stretch without pausing for station stops or getting blocked in by standing commuters only going to Reading. 

Azuma’s seem to get a better press than the GWR IET’s but I guess time will tell once HST’s and Mk4 sets are gone from the ECML. 

So them being slower on diesel than a HST (either 800s or 802s) is just a figment of my imagination, (at risk of repeating myself again) while they are faster away from a standing start it doesnt take long for a HST to get into its stride and overtake the IET, on electric they are obviously faster than the diesel HST.

 

My favourite test is up Hemerdon bank, 60mph PSR at the bottom, 80 max up Hemerdon and 60 at the top, a HST will get up to about 73 before falling back to 65 near the top, we then have to reduce power so the train can reduce speed for the 60, an IET will get up to about 70 before falling back to 55 at the top, we keep power on to get the speed up to 60.

 

While the electric performance is, well electric, the diesel performance is less than a HST at anything above about 30mph.

 

The Azumas (stupid name) get a better press because The interiors were specced by the TOC unlike the GWR ones which were specced by the DaFT, except for the seat fabric on the 802s which is a GWR thing.

 

Edit-

If they dont allow for IETs running with a diesel only restriction in the new timetable it simply wont work between Reading and Paddington because they are that much slower, I had an restricted 802 with and engine out (not unusual) and the fastest it managed was 118 eventually, well it took 22 miles to reach it.

Edited September 9, 2019 by royaloak

[Gwiwer]

Quote

Azuma’s seem to get a better press than the GWR IET’s

Surely they are one and the same train in most respects?  They wear different colour schemes and the ECML sets have full catering provision but beyond that they are - at least from a passenger's viewpoint.

 

I accept there was negative feedback when the GWR HSTs had their last refurbishment and in particular the seating was (and is) not the best.  Most tables were removed which is an issue the IETs have addressed with many more tables being provided but in longer trains.  Whether there is more natural daylight entering through the somewhat smaller IET windows might need to be scientifically tested if it came to an argument.  

 

I have been following the RSSB investigation into seating comfort and quality.  Arising from their final report it does appear that the 8xx series will need to be improved upon in order to meet the minimum standards for seat comfort.  And of course many other newer trains which feature ironing-boards where the seats usually are.  

 

https://www.rssb.co.uk/en/Insights-and-News/Latest-Updates/Research-provides-new-approach-to-seat-comfort

https://www.railengineer.co.uk/2019/07/08/are-you-sitting-comfortably/
https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/rssb-defines-comfort-targets-for-train-seats

[Gwiwer]

Quote

While the electric performance is, well electric, the diesel performance is less than a HST at anything above about 30mph.

That is my experience from the passenger area too.  Sluggish to struggling on the Devon banks and especially so with a perfectly normal full load on an equally normal damp rail.  Lacking in guts through Cornwall too where railhead conditions are affected by damp conditions and a long-term absence of vegetation clearance in addition to curvature and gradients.  Sparkling under the wires and up to line speed in record time but then they tend to catch up things like the 100mph Heathrow Express and on go the brakes for a slow trundle from Hayes all the way to Paddington.  That's a timetabling or punctuality issue rather than a train specification one.  

 

Incidentally when tackling the big banks the vehicles fitted with diesel engines can become rather unpleasant to travel in suffering from noise and micro-vibrations from the power units.  Travelling in the "trailer" coaches the ride is noticeably better, quieter and lacking in those vibrations.  The noise is slightly less than a Voyager under the same conditions but nonetheless intrusive.  I have overheard a couple of comments about the vibrations causing sickness but don't suffer that myself.