Class 800 - Updates

[royaloak]

22 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

  Lacking in guts through Cornwall too where railhead conditions are affected by damp conditions and a long-term absence of vegetation clearance in addition to curvature and gradients.

They actually do quite well in Kernow because the stations are relatively close together so we can take advantage of their initial acceleration, I made up 13 minutes between Plymouth and Penzance the other week (with an engine out) using the full advantage of that initial grunt, it was a late evening train and I wanted to get to Penzance as quickly as possible so I could get away in front of the sleeper with my ECS back to Plymouth otherwise its 40 minutes enforced overtime. I succeeded.

[Not Captain Kernow]

Indeed, travelling from Camborne to Plymouth last Saturday we were five late leaving but on time by Truro.

[Zomboid]

8 hours ago, royaloak said:

I made up 13 minutes between Plymouth and Penzance the other week (with an engine out) using the full advantage of that initial grunt

The engine being out shouldn't affect the initial acceleration, as that's defined by the TE not power (because TE is a function of the traction motors, not the engines). At least that's how I've had it explained to me that Deltics work, they can put down full TE on a single engine, but run out of puff at a lower speed. 

[The Stationmaster]

12 hours ago, royaloak said:

So them being slower on diesel than a HST (either 800s or 802s) is just a figment of my imagination, (at risk of repeating myself again) while they are faster away from a standing start it doesnt take long for a HST to get into its stride and overtake the IET, on electric they are obviously faster than the diesel HST.

 

My favourite test is up Hemerdon bank, 60mph PSR at the bottom, 80 max up Hemerdon and 60 at the top, a HST will get up to about 73 before falling back to 65 near the top, we then have to reduce power so the train can reduce speed for the 60, an IET will get up to about 70 before falling back to 55 at the top, we keep power on to get the speed up to 60.

 

While the electric performance is, well electric, the diesel performance is less than a HST at anything above about 30mph.

 

The Azumas (stupid name) get a better press because The interiors were specced by the TOC unlike the GWR ones which were specced by the DaFT, except for the seat fabric on the 802s which is a GWR thing.

 

Edit-

If they dont allow for IETs running with a diesel only restriction in the new timetable it simply wont work between Reading and Paddington because they are that much slower, I had an restricted 802 with and engine out (not unusual) and the fastest it managed was 118 eventually, well it took 22 miles to reach it.

Exactly so - this has been the situation ever since they were first introduced and it was found by thsoe of us making detailed timing checks that their performance on diesel was inferior to HSTs.  In many respects, apart from initial acceleration (mentioned in your later post) the 802s don't seem much better in the mid to higher speed ranges where they simply don't come up to HST performance.

 

The question of engine noise and vibration plus the effect on riding is interesting.  My passenger experience to date - including some long distance fast running on diesel plus gradients such as the Severn Tunnel is that it is usually difficult to tell when the diesel engine has started or when it is running although there are sometimes occasions when it is more noticeable.  The riding of a vehicle with an engine underneath it is definitely better than one without the extra weight.  I have not experienced diesel running west of Exeter so don't know about the steeper Devon banks of the ups & downs of the Cornish mainline as yet.

[Siberian Snooper]

Definitely no guts on the South Devon banks, compared to an HST.

 

 

[Titan]

7 hours ago, Zomboid said:

The engine being out shouldn't affect the initial acceleration, as that's defined by the TE not power (because TE is a function of the traction motors, not the engines). At least that's how I've had it explained to me that Deltics work, they can put down full TE on a single engine, but run out of puff at a lower speed. 

 

That is certainly true of a Deltic, because when running on one power unit it still feeds all six motors.  If the diesels on the 800's just feed in to a common power bus then it should be the same for them too, unless it is like a voyager where if you lose an engine you lose the corresponding motors as well...

[royaloak]

8 hours ago, Zomboid said:

The engine being out shouldn't affect the initial acceleration, as that's defined by the TE not power (because TE is a function of the traction motors, not the engines). At least that's how I've had it explained to me that Deltics work, they can put down full TE on a single engine, but run out of puff at a lower speed. 

Because the Deltics feed all the traction motors from that one engine, lose an engine on an IET and we lose those 4 traction motors so there is correspondingly less TE.

[Zomboid]

Fair enough. Seems a bit of a strange design for a train that has a power bus (or do they have a transformer on every motored car?), but I'm sure it's like that for a reason.

[magic_monkey09]

18 hours ago, royaloak said:

So them being slower on diesel than a HST (either 800s or 802s) is just a figment of my imagination, (at risk of repeating myself again) while they are faster away from a standing start it doesnt take long for a HST to get into its stride and overtake the IET, on electric they are obviously faster than the diesel HST.

 

My favourite test is up Hemerdon bank, 60mph PSR at the bottom, 80 max up Hemerdon and 60 at the top, a HST will get up to about 73 before falling back to 65 near the top, we then have to reduce power so the train can reduce speed for the 60, an IET will get up to about 70 before falling back to 55 at the top, we keep power on to get the speed up to 60.

 

While the electric performance is, well electric, the diesel performance is less than a HST at anything above about 30mph.

 

The Azumas (stupid name) get a better press because The interiors were specced by the TOC unlike the GWR ones which were specced by the DaFT, except for the seat fabric on the 802s which is a GWR thing.

 

Edit-

If they dont allow for IETs running with a diesel only restriction in the new timetable it simply wont work between Reading and Paddington because they are that much slower, I had an restricted 802 with and engine out (not unusual) and the fastest it managed was 118 eventually, well it took 22 miles to reach it.

Even on Diesel they are an improvement over HST’s on frequent stopping services such as North Cotswold services. I don’t doubt that flat out on a longer run a HST would have an IET for breakfast when in diesel mode. The rapid acceleration out of stations and better braking does cut delay minutes that HST’s would always incur normally due to slam doors or getting held outside waiting for a platform and then crawling in and crawling out. I’d draw more comparisons to a voyager rather than a HST in terms of acceleration. I just hope the December timetable hasn’t set the bar too high and it will be back to business as usual with no flexibility as you mentioned. 

[Titan]

3 hours ago, Titan said:

 

That is certainly true of a Deltic, because when running on one power unit it still feeds all six motors.  If the diesels on the 800's just feed in to a common power bus then it should be the same for them too, unless it is like a voyager where if you lose an engine you lose the corresponding motors as well...

 

2 hours ago, royaloak said:

Because the Deltics feed all the traction motors from that one engine, lose an engine on an IET and we lose those 4 traction motors so there is correspondingly less TE.

 

You can tell @royaloak has got me on ignore! LOL!

[royaloak]

3 hours ago, Zomboid said:

Fair enough. Seems a bit of a strange design for a train that has a power bus (or do they have a transformer on every motored car?), but I'm sure it's like that for a reason.

The power bus is for electric operation because the transformers are in the end coaches, on diesel the traction each motor coach is independent of the others.

[Zomboid]

I don't doubt that it is as you describe, but the traction voltage busline could be supplied by the gensets to enable all motors to be used even with an engine out of use. The same would apply to anything else with a traction bus line. Would be interesting to know why it's not been done that way.

[Gwiwer]

It appears I have to make the same trip in a couple of week's time.  PAD-PNZ overnight Friday into Saturday but back this time on Monday afternoon instead of Sunday.  I might even invest in a first class fare to sample the dining though six out of nine attempts to do so in HST days resulted in there being no service.  Two of the failures were due to service disruption though on both occasions a full kitchen set was provided, twice due to a "kitchen defects" and the other two due to staffing issues.

[The Stationmaster]

19 hours ago, magic_monkey09 said:

Even on Diesel they are an improvement over HST’s on frequent stopping services such as North Cotswold services. I don’t doubt that flat out on a longer run a HST would have an IET for breakfast when in diesel mode. The rapid acceleration out of stations and better braking does cut delay minutes that HST’s would always incur normally due to slam doors or getting held outside waiting for a platform and then crawling in and crawling out. I’d draw more comparisons to a voyager rather than a HST in terms of acceleration. I just hope the December timetable hasn’t set the bar too high and it will be back to business as usual with no flexibility as you mentioned. 

But that isn't the big problem with the IET running on diesel.  It's basic problem is that it lacks the mid speed range and upper speed range acceleration of an HST and that is why they can't keep time on some sections.  Not so bad where their initial acceleration is good and they don't have to stretch to the mid and higher speed range needs for power and acceleration but that doesn't account for much of the route mileage they are used over especially on the longer distance journeys such as Swansea and the West of England.

 

If DafT hadn't fiddled about with the spec and Hitachi's original proposal (of HST like power cars) they might be able to manage HST performance levels but as it stands I'm not at all sure how they ever will without expensive engine uprating and consequent higher maintenance costs.

 

[Zomboid]

I can think of one obvious way to make them perform better than HSTs did...

[Luke Piewalker]

Saw 801207 and an unidentified colleague sneaking out from the Bishop Auckland line while I was departing Darlington.

[Mallard60022]

Just seen an 800 in TPE livery arriving at York P9, from the Leeds direction.

[4630]

12 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

Just seen an 800 in TPE livery arriving at York P9, from the Leeds direction.

Probably this; 5S82 Doncaster IEP to Scarborough

 

There's been a Nova 3 set at Scarborough for the past couple of days in connection with TPE filming a TV ad.  I wonder if the 800 (a Nova 1 set in TPE speak) is also there for filming purposes as there doesn't, as yet, seem to be a return path in the schedule for it.

Edited September 12, 2019 by 4630
to add possible speculation!

[159220]

On 10/09/2019 at 21:44, Gwiwer said:

It appears I have to make the same trip in a couple of week's time.  PAD-PNZ overnight Friday into Saturday but back this time on Monday afternoon instead of Sunday.  I might even invest in a first class fare to sample the dining though six out of nine attempts to do so in HST days resulted in there being no service.  Two of the failures were due to service disruption though on both occasions a full kitchen set was provided, twice due to a "kitchen defects" and the other two due to staffing issues.

 

You must do the evening London bound Pullman. By far the best Pullman crew, a regular service I take and there has been no issue since October when a 802 took over the diagram! No need to book first class, just turn up with a smile. But then, even when the old HST kitchen boiler failed or the oven didn't spark... the crew always look after you and make sure you do not leave starving or sober (latter might just be me)! 

Edited September 14, 2019 by 159220

[Gwiwer]

On 14/09/2019 at 11:46, 159220 said:

 

You must do the evening London bound Pullman. By far the best Pullman crew, a regular service I take and there has been no issue since October when a 802 took over the diagram! No need to book first class, just turn up with a smile. But then, even when the old HST kitchen boiler failed or the oven didn't spark... the crew always look after you and make sure you do not leave starving or sober (latter might just be me)! 

That is the 16.00 (in some timetables 15.59) off Penzance and 18.00 off Plymouth.  I agree about the crew.  But it is the one train I have had the most service failures on.  Four of my six no-dining days were on that very train.  

 

I am intrigued as to how well the 802 can match the HST catering performance.  Given my comments in this topic about the paucity of offerings to most of many trains by way of a trolley service which might or might not be offered.  Watch this space.  Technically I have issues with using a Pullman diner with my standard class ticket as that would be a priv. which does not allow me to dine.  I could use my senior railcard and still obtain a discount but I prefer to use that against a first class fare and pre-book my seat in the restaurant.  It has been quite busy and on one occasion standard ticket holders were unable to be seated.

[M Wright]

Hi, why are so few 800 type trains using the overhead supply in the up or down direction at Didcot station?

[St. Simon]

23 minutes ago, M Wright said:

Hi, why are so few 800 type trains using the overhead supply in the up or down direction at Didcot station?

 

Hi,

 

As for yesterday, all Class 80x units (except those that are Diesel Restricted) to and from Swindon can use the OLE through Didcot, whilst Class 80x units to and from Oxford will be Diesel through Didcot (unless they stop in the Up Direction, then they can raise their pantograph).

 

The reason for this is that the Power Change-Over Location is at Moreton Cutting to the east of Didcot. Before the weekend, the PCO site was required for all trains due to the problematic Bridge at Steventon (the subject of which has been covered on the GWML Electrification Topic), however, this has now been partially solved meaning that the PCO site now only applies for trains to and from Oxford (as there is no wires up to Oxford).

 

Therefore, a train to Oxford is required to convert to Diesel at Moreton (whether stopping at Didcot or not) and a train from Oxford can convert to Electric either to Moreton Cutting or whilst stationary of Didcot (but only if stopping). There is also a general rule that you can convert to electric anywhere is you are travelling below 20mph.

 

Simon

[caradoc]

What is the reason please why a Down train to Oxford, stopping at Didcot, cannot changeover to diesel there ?

[RusselBridge2017]

Caught this in Basingstoke on Friday heading south, was it lost anyone know?

[royaloak]

3 hours ago, St. Simon said:

There is also a general rule that you can convert to electric anywhere is you are travelling below 20mph.

 

Simon

Or reconfigure the pantographs on a 9 car if you forgot to do it at Paddington.

 

Just sayin.