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Class 800 - Updates


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On 24/10/2019 at 20:31, royaloak said:

I do wish the crew would spend 30* seconds getting the formation the right way around, it isnt difficult!

 

Although going by the company Yammer account some crews arent aware of what the formation ought to be despite it being on notices several times, some think A-E should be leading all the time, others think the lower numbered unit should be A-E etc, which is bloody stupid because neither has ever been the case.

 

Dont expect the reservations to work on a weekend because the database never seems to be loaded at weekends which it could be argued is when it is needed the most as that is when we have more occasional travellers.

 

* sometimes it can take the computer a couple of minutes to load up the formation before it can be corrected, the correction takes less than 30 seconds.

This might explain the double change of formation when we caught a train up from Penzance earlier this month. We boarded immediately after the train arrived in from Paddington, it was formed of 2 x 5 sets, and possibly the formation was still that carried from the inbound working.

After a few moments the coach we were in changed letter (set formation changed from from A-E, to E-A, or the other way round). At some point a couple with heavy bags walked through heading for their reservation in the front first class coach. Once we were on the move I noticed the letter had changed again, this time the set had become F-K. No wonder some people were confused!

 

cheers  

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I was on a 9-car from KX to Doncaster (a Leeds service) yesterday, seated in the centre of the buffet coach G (i.e. not directly over the bogies).

On the plus side:

- I had no problems with seat comfort at all (and I'm not very well padded)

- Timekeeping no problem, in fact it was running up to 3 mins early at various points, catching up with the previous one from KX

- Overhead luggage racks much more accommodating of relatively small rucksacks than those on the Voyagers/Meridians

On the minus:

- A moderately rough ride - the chap opposite had a cup of soup which he barely kept off his nice white shirt, and I had the coke bottle from the chap beside me sliding across the table at high speed. Rough both vertically and laterally, and it seemed to 'thruppenny bit' (spelling?) around some of the faster curves. I'm beginning to think the ECML track quality has declined in recent years, and the Midland improved (my southbound journey was Sheffield-London and I didn't particularly notice any rough riding). LNER advertise a 'Smoother journey' on their azuma page at https://www.lner.co.uk/the-east-coast-experience/azuma-trains/azuma-story/ it's not doing them any favours.

- Reservations not downloaded, so nothing displayed and a free for all. Apologies from the announcements "we tried to download them". The train started from platform 0 in KX, and I wondered if that was a bit of a notspot in terms of connectivity, as it's a well hidden spot from the outside world. (I can't get a mobile signal from the back of our supermarket for another example).

- And no hot food in first class, no hot drinks, buffet counter was closed by the time I got off at Doncaster - announcement apologised for problems with a lack of staff, but I don't know why that should prevent hot drinks from being available.

 

Overall verdict: meh, swings and roundabouts versus the previous generation and versus the competition.

Edited by eastwestdivide
typo - I've/I'm
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On 26/10/2019 at 19:54, 25901 said:

I used to use a drop of twine in my garage in Epsom years ago so that I knew where to stop (when it touched the back window of my then motor on reversing into the very tight and short space of a 1930s semi. never thought of hanging my balls there!

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38 minutes ago, eastwestdivide said:

I was on a 9-car from KX to Doncaster (a Leeds service) yesterday, seated in the centre of the buffet coach G (i.e. not directly over the bogies).

On the plus side:

- I had no problems with seat comfort at all (and I've not very well padded)

- Timekeeping no problem, in fact it was running up to 3 mins early at various points, catching up with the previous one from KX

- Overhead luggage racks much more accommodating of relatively small rucksacks than those on the Voyagers/Meridians

On the minus:

- A moderately rough ride - the chap opposite had a cup of soup which he barely kept off his nice white shirt, and I had the coke bottle from the chap beside me sliding across the table at high speed. Rough both vertically and laterally, and it seemed to 'thruppenny bit' (spelling?) around some of the faster curves. I'm beginning to think the ECML track quality has declined in recent years, and the Midland improved (my southbound journey was Sheffield-London and I didn't particularly notice any rough riding). LNER advertise a 'Smoother journey' on their azuma page at https://www.lner.co.uk/the-east-coast-experience/azuma-trains/azuma-story/ it's not doing them any favours.

- Reservations not downloaded, so nothing displayed and a free for all. Apologies from the announcements "we tried to download them". The train started from platform 0 in KX, and I wondered if that was a bit of a notspot in terms of connectivity, as it's a well hidden spot from the outside world. (I can't get a mobile signal from the back of our supermarket for another example).

- And no hot food in first class, no hot drinks, buffet counter was closed by the time I got off at Doncaster - announcement apologised for problems with a lack of staff, but I don't know why that should prevent hot drinks from being available.

 

Overall verdict: meh, swings and roundabouts versus the previous generation and versus the competition.

Yup. ECML track- work is Curate's egg at the moment for the Monties. I am surprised about the Staffing but there is a flu thing going around and also there are many more services with Monties and I think they need a few more Staff for those? That guess maybe bo##ocks. Personally I think they are carp. Prefer a Gresley Open or a Maunsell with maybe a bit of the old SR Sub 'Nelson' Rock and Roll. 

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9 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

...bit of the old SR Sub 'Nelson' Rock and Roll

Never experienced any pre-BR coaches at any speed. However, in my experience on the Gillingham-Charing Cross semi-fasts, the SR suburban units had more suspension in the seat cushions than in the bogies, as evidenced by the wear pattern on the seat backs, where 1000s of commuters had bounced up and down, rubbing the seat backs smooth (and releasing clouds of third-hand fag-ash from the seat bases at every bounce). 

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19 hours ago, Rivercider said:

This might explain the double change of formation when we caught a train up from Penzance earlier this month. We boarded immediately after the train arrived in from Paddington, it was formed of 2 x 5 sets, and possibly the formation was still that carried from the inbound working.

After a few moments the coach we were in changed letter (set formation changed from from A-E, to E-A, or the other way round). At some point a couple with heavy bags walked through heading for their reservation in the front first class coach. Once we were on the move I noticed the letter had changed again, this time the set had become F-K. No wonder some people were confused!

 

cheers  

The letters cannot reverse in the set, 1ST class is always E on a 5 car set (and L if its a 10) unless one of the crew is being a bit of an arris and does it deliberately, there has been yet another brief sent out reminding crews which way round the sets should be, see below.

 

Sometimes when first set up the computer will get the sets the wrong way round, but after it has spent 2 minutes making its mind up the crew should be able to change it so that A is Country end and L is London end, but the coach letters will always be A (Standard) through to E (1ST class), and G (Standard) through to L (1ST).

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7 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

Yup. ECML track- work is Curate's egg at the moment for the Monties. I am surprised about the Staffing but there is a flu thing going around and also there are many more services with Monties and I think they need a few more Staff for those? That guess maybe bo##ocks. Personally I think they are carp. Prefer a Gresley Open or a Maunsell with maybe a bit of the old SR Sub 'Nelson' Rock and Roll. 

The rock & roll of the 'Nelsons' was quite enjoyable actually as it always seemed to be gradual rather than abrupt (or was that because of the track on the Portsmouth Direct?).  Gresley bogies could give a ropey ride at times and the design definitely gave rough riding on the GE suburban electric units.  Never noticed any problems on various Hawksworth, Collett or Stanier stock and the GW American bogies gave a lovely smooth ride although on the two trips I had on them although I doubt we got much faster than 60-70mph (on breakdown vans).

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11 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

The rock & roll of the 'Nelsons' was quite enjoyable actually as it always seemed to be gradual rather than abrupt (or was that because of the track on the Portsmouth Direct?).  Gresley bogies could give a ropey ride at times and the design definitely gave rough riding on the GE suburban electric units.  Never noticed any problems on various Hawksworth, Collett or Stanier stock and the GW American bogies gave a lovely smooth ride although on the two trips I had on them although I doubt we got much faster than 60-70mph (on breakdown vans).

 

Gresley bogies under AM4s !!!!

 

As for track and ride quality, a few months ago I had a trip from Brum to Exeter in the TF of 1V44 which was a sliding door HST.  I have always loved the ride of a well maintained Mk3 but noticed a few little rough patches.  However, the ride down Filton bank on the new track on new formation was as smooth as a baby's bum.  That proved to me that vehicle was in good condition and whatever roughness, I felt on the journey had to be the track.     

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I have now made a few trips up and down the Thames Valley on various 8xx formations and on 387s which sometimes use the fast lines.  This offers a direct comparison in ride quality.  The 8xx are typically firmer, one can feel the suspension working and micro-vibrations are transmitted through from track to seat to passenger.  That can be very uncomfortable and apparently makes a few people feel ill.  

 

There are regular alarming thumps and lurches on 8xx where it seems the tracking of the bogie is suddenly corrected but is abrupt enough - and usually at high speed - that it feels alarming and certainly sends items on tables flying.  Including drinks.  This occurs on plain track and does not feel the same as passing over a mud-hole at speed which typically gives a lurch and bump in the vertical plane.  The lurches on the 8xx are horizontal.  

 

Riding 387s over the same track at their maximum permitted speed (100mph I believe though the stock is passed for 110mph) slightly below that of the IET sets there is no lurching.  There is a little micro-vibration and there is some roughness through pointwork at Ealing and Slough though not elsewhere.  This suggests it relates to age and possibly the geometry of the pointwork as those are low-speed turnouts whereas Airport Junction, Dolphin and others are higher-speed.  

 

The HSTs were not perfect in the Thames Valley either.  They equated to the 387s but without the micro-vibrations.  Probably because the suspension absorbed more than on modern stock and the better-padded seating absorbed what the suspension didn't.  There were occasional alarming lurches and bumps which suggests a track rather than a train issue.  

 

But on the whole the HSTs were better, the 387s are OK and the 8xx IETs are alarmingly uncomfortable.  Through a combination of track and train factors.  

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The riding of "Nelson" stock has been mentioned above.  It is 50 years now since those last ran at full speed on a main line.  Memory blurs reality into the background somewhat.  I recall the gentle swaying and occasionally rough riding over points as being bearable and in a sense comforting.  Not only was the suspension good for its day (after some tweaks to the original) but the seating was generously comfortable and one sank into the cushions and relaxed.  If the train ran through Woking and did a hard left onto the Pompey Direct at slightly over the limit (which was not infrequent in the days before in-cab monitoring and TPWS intervention) then the entire coach-load of heads swayed in unison.  On the Brighton line the regular commuters were wise-up to the points at Three Bridges and lifted drinks from tables.  A drink held in the hand is far less likely to spill than one left on the table.   Trust me - it works.   On board the Brighton Belle stewards would not serve for those few minutes between Gatwick and Balcombe Tunnel Junction to avoid accidental spillage over those points.  Trains have had weight engineered out over the years but carry more electronic and passenger-comfort kit than in the 1930s.  Are we at the point of having them too light for passenger comfort?

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We rode a number of GWR 8XX's yesterday and notice that the trolley staff now serve tea American style with the hot water put in the cup and teabag now down to the passenger to put into the cup so you don't really end up with a drinkable cup of tea.

 

Also none of the electronic seat reservations appeared to be working on the ones we were on or saw at Reading. Luckily the trains were pretty much empty.

 

Seats way too hard but way better than the Thamelink units but our preferred rout now is the ex LSWR route via Salisbury then change at Exeter onto an HST wherever possible. 

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With well over 200 years of railway  rolling stock development in this country, together with their cost, the 800's should run, be as quiet and smooth running as a Rolls Royce.

 

Such is progress !!

 

Brit15

 

 

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Despite the dire warnings in this thread that I will have back pain forever, be thrown about, and forced to drink unpalatable quasi-rosie-lee, I fully intend, on Thursday afternoon, to entrust life and limb to an IET from Padlington to Newton Abbot. Survival is likely. 

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57 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Despite the dire warnings in this thread that I will have back pain forever, be thrown about, and forced to drink unpalatable quasi-rosie-lee, I fully intend, on Thursday afternoon, to entrust life and limb to an IET from Padlington to Newton Abbot. Survival is likely. 

 

there is a lot of over reactions in this thread. I have not tried a GWR set yet but have been up and down the East Coast recently in both First and Standard on the IETs. I had no problem with the comfort in either class and was impressed with the legroom in standard, yes there was a rough ride but over the same stretches the ride was just as rough in the HSTs and Mk4 sets so more an issue with the trackwork than the trains. My only complaint really was when i was on a pair of 5 car 801 sets on a Leeds service, i'm not sure how the air con works but there was a fair bit of what sounded like exterior noise coming from the ceiling area?

 

Bry

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On 02/11/2019 at 12:08, Gwiwer said:

The riding of "Nelson" stock has been mentioned above.  It is 50 years now since those last ran at full speed on a main line.  Memory blurs reality into the background somewhat.  I recall the gentle swaying and occasionally rough riding over points as being bearable and in a sense comforting.  Not only was the suspension good for its day (after some tweaks to the original) but the seating was generously comfortable and one sank into the cushions and relaxed.  If the train ran through Woking and did a hard left onto the Pompey Direct at slightly over the limit (which was not infrequent in the days before in-cab monitoring and TPWS intervention) then the entire coach-load of heads swayed in unison.  On the Brighton line the regular commuters were wise-up to the points at Three Bridges and lifted drinks from tables.  A drink held in the hand is far less likely to spill than one left on the table.   Trust me - it works.   On board the Brighton Belle stewards would not serve for those few minutes between Gatwick and Balcombe Tunnel Junction to avoid accidental spillage over those points.  Trains have had weight engineered out over the years but carry more electronic and passenger-comfort kit than in the 1930s.  Are we at the point of having them too light for passenger comfort?

 

My distant memory seems to concur with yours on the riding of the old Southern Railway stock. My main stomping ground was the Brighton main line and the main danger points for drinks spillage were Balham Junction, Gatwick-Balcombe Tunnel Junction, particularly at Three Bridges, and sometimes, at Haywards Heath (the long curve leading up to the release crossover from the Up turnback siding to the Down side seemed to catch out some stock at speed). In the latter days of the 'Belle' there were interminable intermittent works on the Quarry and it (and the other trains diagrammed for that route) were rerouted through Redhill, sometimes at short notice - the Stewards on the 'Belle' were under no illusion of what might happen should they be carrying liquids when the train rattled over the Redhill junction pointwork...

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21 minutes ago, edin_bry2x said:

 

there is a lot of over reactions in this thread. I have not tried a GWR set yet

How can you say it is an over-reaction and then state you havent tried the trains that people are complaining about?

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22 minutes ago, royaloak said:

How can you say it is an over-reaction and then state you havent tried the trains that people are complaining about?

 

When i walked past one sitting at Paddington the seats in standard looked exactly the same as the units on the ECML just a different colour! But i will know the answer to that on tuesday when i do London to Bristol return. I get the feeling that there is a lot of hate for these units purely due to the fact they ousted or are in the process of ousting HSTs and Mk4 rakes.

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2 hours ago, edin_bry2x said:

But i will know the answer to that on tuesday when i do London to Bristol return.

If possible travel on one with light grey seat covers, not the dark grey ones.

 

   

Quote

I get the feeling that there is a lot of hate for these units purely due to the fact they ousted or are in the process of ousting HSTs and Mk4 rakes.

 New things should be better than the things they replace, that is all I will say on the matter.

 

 

Edit-

I walked past a car showroom the other day and I thought the new cars looked worse than my 16 year old car!

Edited by royaloak
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I've not been in mk4's that much compared to mk3's, but istr they are not as good as mk3's, and perfectly capable of giving a choppy ride.

My experiences of IET's so far has been limited to relatively short journeys such as Bristol-Padd. I don't find them too bad, but not sure what I'd feel after 5 or more hours in one.

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9 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Complaints about the ride of the 800’s and comparisons with pre-war LNER and SR rolling stock....

 

has everyone forgotten about pacers ? - and they've not even gone yet.

I have felt a couple of fairly pronounced "shimmies" when in 80x's (mostly 802s) and the ride is certainly different to an HST. I've not had that many trips yet, but I get the impression that it probably averages out across various types of "track wobble" and I don't consider it inferior overall to recent HST journeys. How an 800 might compare with an HST in its absolute heyday is possibly a different matter.

 

As for the 4-wheelers,  I haven't ridden the other classes much since the 142 "skippers" departed the West Country, but the 143s on Great Western are pretty decent so long as they don't have to deal with jointed track. With most of the Exeter-Barnstaple route now CWR, I'd say the ride quality is no worse than a 150, seats are comparable and the noise level is somewhat lower.

 

John

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9 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Complaints about the ride of the 800’s and comparisons with pre-war LNER and SR rolling stock....

 

has everyone forgotten about pacers ? - and they've not even gone yet.

Pacers eh. Yup, they were designed for 125 mph running on the main lines in the south and west and up and down the ECML......they were utilitarian and have served us well. maybe the Montezoomas will have achieved the same in 40 years time (somehow I think they may have gone long before then).

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14 hours ago, edin_bry2x said:

 

there is a lot of over reactions in this thread. I have not tried a GWR set yet but have been up and down the East Coast recently in both First and Standard on the IETs. I had no problem with the comfort in either class and was impressed with the legroom in standard, yes there was a rough ride but over the same stretches the ride was just as rough in the HSTs and Mk4 sets so more an issue with the trackwork than the trains. My only complaint really was when i was on a pair of 5 car 801 sets on a Leeds service, i'm not sure how the air con works but there was a fair bit of what sounded like exterior noise coming from the ceiling area?

 

Bry

You must have an iron arse then buddy and the agility of an Olympic gymnast to negotiate the luggage left all over the place.

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