Jump to content
 

Class 800 - Updates


Recommended Posts

Whilst I was not a supporter of the every train should have a yellow front brigade, is there any livery that has replaced it with any colour other than black?  I am starting to think there should have been a rule that black was not allowed. Or very dark grey either...

  • Agree 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Titan said:

Whilst I was not a supporter of the every train should have a yellow front brigade, is there any livery that has replaced it with any colour other than black?  I am starting to think there should have been a rule that black was not allowed. Or very dark grey either...

TfL have gone with orange on their latest Overground trains, and the ends of the TPE 68s are blue.

 

But so far black is the most popular colour for some reason, at least where yellow hasn't been chosen.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Our local BBC Look North early evening news reported extensively on Hull Trains' new "Paragon" fleet, including interviews and a cab visit.

 

Watch here on iPlayer, but I think the episode is only available for 24 hours, so watch it quick!

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000brth/look-north-east-yorkshire-and-lincolnshire-evening-news-25112019

 

Edit: - most of the half hour programme features the new trains - cab and passenger accommodation visit is during the second half.

Edited by cravensdmufan
Additional information
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
On ‎24‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 16:12, Gwiwer said:

The point being that Basingstoke call the shots and have no sight nor - in many cases due to the non-relocation of many staff - local knowledge of what their decision-making does at the coal face.

 

And now back to the storyline ;)

 

For me, one of the biggest issues with control, is the loss of staff that understand how to signal trains. We suffered a control location change, and all the experienced ex-signalling staff that made up our control, more or less, en-mass took the money and ran. This left us with a control that had no rules training (it wasn't deemed that rules knowledge was needed to tell us what to do) and very little experience of how a control, or trains are run. At the same time they also tried to empire build and brought a lot of regulation decisions into the control away from the signalmen. It was a trying time, and although the staff now have rules knowledge, we are still a long way from how it was...

 

Andy G 

  • Friendly/supportive 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold
49 minutes ago, uax6 said:

 

For me, one of the biggest issues with control, is the loss of staff that understand how to signal trains. We suffered a control location change, and all the experienced ex-signalling staff that made up our control, more or less, en-mass took the money and ran. This left us with a control that had no rules training (it wasn't deemed that rules knowledge was needed to tell us what to do) and very little experience of how a control, or trains are run. At the same time they also tried to empire build and brought a lot of regulation decisions into the control away from the signalmen. It was a trying time, and although the staff now have rules knowledge, we are still a long way from how it was...

 

Andy G 

I entered Redhill Control in 1968. I had some rules knowledge, having attenderd evening classes, but quickly discovered that this was not considered necessary, and no rules certificates were held, except by those who had previously worked on the outdoor railway. I soon became an Assistant Controller on the London Area. The Control moved to Croydon in 1969, and the London Area was split, so I, aged 20, now found myself as Area Controller for London Bridge (Central) and routes out to Coulsdon, Warnham and most of the Central suburban network. National Agreements meant management had no choice but to identify me and the other three former Assistants in the new posts. In fairness Rule Books were provided, and after the new Rule Book in 1972 (?) we were expected to sign for amendments. I was not popular when I refused on the grounds that we had never been trained or examined in rules! 

 

In fairness, it was seldom the case that we were expected to direct or instruct signalmen or others beyond asking for train regulation or similar matters. And no thinking signalman was going to go against the Rule Book because Control said it would be alright! And where the Traffic Regulators at Victoria, London Bridge and Brighton were concerned, our role was very much consultative, even if we had the final say. 

 

The intense nature of traffic on parts of Southern Region probably means our job was less detailed than in some other Controls. Indeed, the Controls had formerly been called Train Supervision Offices. I am aware of other Controls where train graphs were compiled live. But my 5 years in Control set me up for a career that gave me no cause for regret.

  • Like 8
Link to post
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, uax6 said:

 

For me, one of the biggest issues with control, is the loss of staff that understand how to signal trains. We suffered a control location change, and all the experienced ex-signalling staff that made up our control, more or less, en-mass took the money and ran. This left us with a control that had no rules training (it wasn't deemed that rules knowledge was needed to tell us what to do) and very little experience of how a control, or trains are run. At the same time they also tried to empire build and brought a lot of regulation decisions into the control away from the signalmen. It was a trying time, and although the staff now have rules knowledge, we are still a long way from how it was...

 

Andy G 

 

In my 30 years in Control there was never any formal Rules training or assessment, because direct application of the Rules is not the function of Control, nor would Controllers be expected, or indeed have the right, to instruct others (although obviously they must have a working knowledge).

 

Regulation is a thorny issue; Normally Signallers are perfectly competent to apply the instructions without direction from Control, but sometimes Control is aware of factors outside the Signaller's knowledge, eg issues in another box area, crew or stock diagramming, connectional requirements, etc.

 

In my location (Glasgow) Controllers were recruited from a variety of sources. We had staff who had been:

 

Signallers (manual boxes)

Signallers (power boxes)

Signalling Centre Supervisors/Shift Managers

Mobile Operations Managers

Local Operations Managers

Overhead Line Supervisors

S&T Supervisors

Guards

Booking Office clerks

TOPS Office clerks

Trust Clerks

Train Planners

Train Crew Supervisors

Area Freight Assistants

Train maintenance Supervisors

 

Personally I doubt that the range of knowledge and experience contained there would be found in any single place elsewhere on the railway, although as has been rightly pointed out, re-organising and relocating, and therefore losing such staff, will have a negative effect.

 

  • Like 4
  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

These days its all about O codes, if the signaller makes a regulating decision and delays a train more than the hindsight Police think it should have been then the signaller will get an O code against them even if their decision reduced the overall delays to all other trains.

 

To many O codes (whether real or spurious) and the signaller will be put on poor performance so the easy answer is either let the ARSE* do its thing or keep everything booked order so no O codes, yes its a crap way to run a railway but given the choice what can they do.

 

* Automatic Route Setting Equipment, never has anything been so appropriately named!

  • Like 3
  • Funny 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium

Case in point today.  And almost every day in recent weeks.  

 

The Waterloo - Shepperton trains are booked an 8-minute turnaround in London (as are most suburban trains on the main side - it's a bit more generous on the Windsor side) and during leaf-fall only four minutes, but otherwise still only six, at the single-track Shepperton terminus.  It doesn't take much for any train to be more than five late into Waterloo during the morning.  As I coach my in-training colleagues and describe to passengers if a train takes just 5 seconds over time at each station stop that is 2 minutes late at the ned of the run.  When trains are running on a 3 minute headway the effect is instant and resembles a line of dominoes ......... 

 

A 2-minute late arrival will foul the entire station throat but remember "on time" by PPMis up to 4 minutes 59 seconds after advertised time - which is two complete train pathways between Raynes Park and Waterloo.  A 4-minute late arrival will affect future platform allocation and upset working across much of the suburban network.  Both of these are "on time" by PPM but impact on all trains in both up and down directions for a couple of hours afterwards.  Factor in passenger loadings (highest ever), adverse weather (leaf-fall and damp rails make it slippery - good defensive driving can take a little longer) and the operation of 10-car (as now booked in many cases) instead of 8-car (upon which the master timetable is predicated) trains across Waterloo's throat and every other conflicting junction and the chance of anything achieving "Right Time" is extremely slim.

 

Shepperton trains have, with few exceptions, run fast from Waterloo to Teddington every morning effectively meaning the entire service is cancelled from stations Vauxhall to Hampton Wick.  Statistically the trains have run but not from the passenger's point of view.  Control is attempting to get them back on time with a critically tight turnaround at the outer end and a section of single line to consider.  What is not considered is the knock-on effect which is severe overcrowding of platforms, abuse of platform staff by increasingly frustrated passengers, the cost of damaged reputation and of Delay Repay and the sight - all too common - of a "cancelled" train rolling through a station where its stop has been cancelled a mere 2 - 3 minutes late without reasonable explanation.   And usually in timetable order. How do you explain that to the hundreds who wait only to have their train (and most others on their route) "cancelled" day after day?  

 

Would that have happened with Control having more local knowledge of the effects?  It's a moot point.  Control has to control trains, train crew and KPIs.  Those who have not come from a railway background and are perhaps recent recruits will "do it by the book".  It is easy to spot when a more experienced controller is making the decisions because trains will not have stops skipped and instead will be "given the run" in the expectation that a half-decent driver will know their job and do it to the best of their ability.   

 

Rant over.  It's been an unnecessarily challenging day.  Thanks largely to decisions made in a bunker at Basingstoke by people gazing at screens not facing the fare-paying public.  

 

 

  • Agree 1
  • Friendly/supportive 5
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold
2 hours ago, royaloak said:

These days its all about O codes, if the signaller makes a regulating decision and delays a train more than the hindsight Police think it should have been then the signaller will get an O code against them even if their decision reduced the overall delays to all other trains.

 

To many O codes (whether real or spurious) and the signaller will be put on poor performance so the easy answer is either let the ARSE* do its thing or keep everything booked order so no O codes, yes its a crap way to run a railway but given the choice what can they do.

 

* Automatic Route Setting Equipment, never has anything been so appropriately named!

This can only lead to unintelligent "as they come, so they go" regulation. Only marginally better than "stop-em junction" stuff. But the inevitable result of a railway in which different TOCs share rails, and penalties are payable. The lawyers and merchant bankers who dreamed this up in the '90s have a lot to answer for. 

  • Agree 8
Link to post
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

This can only lead to unintelligent "as they come, so they go" regulation. Only marginally better than "stop-em junction" stuff. But the inevitable result of a railway in which different TOCs share rails, and penalties are payable. The lawyers and merchant bankers who dreamed this up in the '90s have a lot to answer for. 

But when it was dreamed up it was a good idea as it was supposed to easily identify pinch points or timetable conflicts so they could be sorted out, then somebody realised there could be lots of money available so we ended up with the current system.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

Getting back to Class 800s (sorry) a very interesting experience this morning.  I was traveling in the second, and therefore powered, coach and as we left Twyford that was a fair bit of vibration for less than a minute followed by power being applied and then being taken of all of which suggested to me some fairly serious wheel slip.  Then some fairly pedestrian running all the way to Reading.  At Reading I had a brief chat with the Driver as he was in the process of changing ends and asked if it had been wheelsip because it certainly felt like it and he replied that it was - well and truly.

 

Leaving Reading onto the flyover on my next train - in this case a 9 car formation not a 5 car as previously - there was again a slight hint of wheelslip as we got onto the gradient although only once and nothing like as bad as it was on the first train when we left Twyford.

 

The morning was suffering from what I call 'greasy' rain - almost feels like it isn't raining until you realise you're well wet and the mistiness of the rain has given everything a damp film.  Presumably it had done the same to the rail head as on that side of Twyford there were no leaves about on the line - just a wet rail.

 

BTW plonty of GWR IETs the wrong way round today.

  • Like 2
  • Informative/Useful 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Zomboid said:

That's not control though, that's an inadequate timetable causing that issue.

 

5 hours ago, rodent279 said:

Also trying to squeeze a quart sized service into a pint sized infrastructure.

 

And Control taking positive action, without the benefit of a crystal ball, by doing what they believe to be the right thing at the time. Been there, done that, too many times to count.

 

  • Like 2
  • Agree 2
  • Friendly/supportive 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Reading on FB that LNER are going to have some Azumas modified by taking out some seats and adding additional luggage areas. Perhaps realisation has sunk in at DfT that Anglo Scottish passengers tend to have luggage, as presumably they need to pay Hitachi for the variations ?

 

  • Informative/Useful 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, caradoc said:

 

 

And Control taking positive action, without the benefit of a crystal ball, by doing what they believe to be the right thing at the time. Been there, done that, too many times to count.

 

Never mind the amount of pressure the TOC's are under, from Network Rail, to 'recover' the service, moreso when it is an NR related incident!

  • Agree 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Covkid said:

Reading on FB that LNER are going to have some Azumas modified by taking out some seats and adding additional luggage areas. Perhaps realisation has sunk in at DfT that Anglo Scottish passengers tend to have luggage, as presumably they need to pay Hitachi for the variations ?

 

I find there is more luggage space on the Azumas than the HST's, however!

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
4 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

The morning was suffering from what I call 'greasy' rain

Definitely.  Wheel slip was in evidence in my area of influence both under power and - perhaps alarmingly - under braking.  Of note the 707s appear to perform better than the 455s under these conditions though are definitely prone to momentary wheel slip under power until the computer corrects it.  They benefit from partial tread braking (on the motor coaches) in addition to everything else meaning the rims on some wheels get scraped clear of leaf goo assisting adhesion.

 

I have experienced fairly dramatic wheel slip on 8xx IETs in Cornwall though in fairness the HSTs sometimes suffered and the 57-hauled sleeper definitely does.  The latter has been known to drop an hour or more through (mostly eastern) Cornwall slipping and sliding away from starts and up the steeper wooded hills.  IETs suffer the same fate but benefit to an extent from distributed power and a more even weight profile along the train meaning if one coach loses its feet momentarily other(s) may still be ok.  As opposed to one solid lump at the front doing all the work and not doing it very well in these conditions.  

 

Full credit to the local drivers though.  They manage to get the trains through even if it's at a snail's pace much of the way.  My most recent trip was on a morning such as today.  Already late because of wheel-slip and damp greasy rails we finally got away from St. Erth after three attempts and a great deal of jerking and juddering.  And that isn't usually the worst spot.  Penzance was reached 70 minutes late after arriving at St. Erth 55 down.

Edited by Gwiwer
  • Informative/Useful 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, EmporiaSub said:

Never mind the amount of pressure the TOC's are under, from Network Rail, to 'recover' the service, moreso when it is an NR related incident!

 

Recovering the service ASAP, to provide a normal timetable for the greatest number of passengers, should be a priority for all Control staff, no matter who they work for or what caused the disruption. Although maybe there is less of an incentive for a TOC to recover the service from a NR incident rather than their own ?!

 

  • Like 2
  • Agree 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

Having had more than enough experience, frequently working all night in order to do it, writing emergency VSTP trainplans and timetables it is best compared with a three-dimensional version of chess n because of the combination of resources that need to be taken into account.  Doing it in, on the hoof, in the current ops Control Office situation introduces additional problems the biggest one of which in my experience is trying to bottom exactly what situation you are starting from let alone what you have to work with.  

 

Experience, knowledge, and information are all important in such situations and the right aptitudes are essential.  Not everybody necessarily has the right combinations of such things and that - going back half a century in my experience of such things - is neither new nor necessarily uncommon.  Hence nowadays, quite rightly in my view, there has been an increased emphasis of setting put either priorities (which is extremely difficult on a complex railway because they can never be comprehensive) or at least setting out some general guidelines about the way in which certain situtations should be tackled.  I would be surprised if the recovery situation involving, for example, taking out stops is not one which has been pre-ordained as the course to be adopted in some circumstances.  In other words there has been a policy decision rather than Controllers doing their own thing - so they need not necessarily be regarded as the people responsible or those who should be 'blamed'.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, caradoc said:

 

Recovering the service ASAP, to provide a normal timetable for the greatest number of passengers, should be a priority for all Control staff, no matter who they work for or what caused the disruption. Although maybe there is less of an incentive for a TOC to recover the service from a NR incident rather than their own ?!

 

And leave the blaming until Morning Prayers the next morning.

  • Agree 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

By way of a change from the usual green ones whizzing up and down the GW Main Line, I was surprised to see a blue 8xx unit, presumably one of the Hull Trains ones, being hauled dead in a down freight through West Drayton this morning. A check on RTT would seem to indicate that this was 6X80 - Dollands Moor to Eastleigh so presumably these are units coming through from Hitacji's plant in Italy.

 

Jim

  • Informative/Useful 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...