Class 800 - Updates

[RJS1977]

I don't know, usually when I'm coming back from Swansea on the 17:30, I get a coach pretty much to myself and I think a lot of the other coaches are the same. Considering this is effectively a peak hours train it seems rather a waste to be hauling a lot of empty air about west of Cardiff.

 

Of course running as 2x 5 car sets also has the advantage that if one set develops a fault, the service and still run (albeit shortened) whereas a 9 car set would have to be cancelled.

[159220]

I thought the plan was that the Swansea trains would split at Cardiff leaving just 5 coaches to go on to Swansea. I assumed that wasn't happening yet because of problems I'd heard about with attaching 800's (software issues?) But if they can do it at Swansea then presumably they can do it at Cardiff.

 

So did I get the wrong end of the stick and the plan was always to run 10 cars to Swansea with 5 car trains being only for the (few) 800s which travel beyond Swansea? If so they seem to have overdone it a bit with the number of 5 car sets.

 

 

No sticks needed. The 'IET' timetable when introduced (we shall know by the end of Jan whether is it going to be introduced this December or delayed to May 2020 - depends on NR confirming electrification dates) 'flagship' services (Bristol via Bath, Penzance and Swansea) shall be made up of mainly 9-cars with 5-cars taking on all the new services with significant reduction in 10-car operation. Yes, 10-cars shall operate where they are able to split on route and provide a logical service. But until timetable change, the situation we have now, shall continue. Expect the current political uncertainty to translate into NR being unable to deliver the electric needed for the IET timetable for December this year.....

[phil-b259]

I dont think there should be ANY five car sets

 

Which means fewer through trains for some places.

 

While not necessarily an advantage for trains to Cornwall the ability to divide one train to serve both Torbay and Plymouth say could be advantageous in providing more through services to London which are constrained by the maximum capacity of the GWML inwards from Reading.

 

This mode of operation has been long used on the Southern region for precisely this reason and means the likes of Littlehampton and Eastbourne get 2 through trains to London rather than 1 each hour.

Edited January 22, 2019 by phil-b259

[Coryton]

 Would have been in the front 5-cars, IF, Hitachi could sort out reverse formation trains. Everyone else seems to be able to keep trains in the right direction, just not Hitachi.

 

But this should only be a software issue, surely? The units come out of the depot whichever way they do and no amount of software is going to turn a unit round. But making sure that the leading set has one set of coach letters and the trailing set the other could be handled in software. In principle.

 

No sticks needed. The 'IET' timetable when introduced (we shall know by the end of Jan whether is it going to be introduced this December or delayed to May 2020 - depends on NR confirming electrification dates) 'flagship' services (Bristol via Bath, Penzance and Swansea) shall be made up of mainly 9-cars with 5-cars taking on all the new services with significant reduction in 10-car operation. Yes, 10-cars shall operate where they are able to split on route and provide a logical service. But until timetable change, the situation we have now, shall continue. Expect the current political uncertainty to translate into NR being unable to deliver the electric needed for the IET timetable for December this year.....

 

OK I thought the plan was to have services not just splitting to serve different destinations but also to reduce the number of coaches on less heavily loaded sections of the route, e.g Cardiff to Swansea.

 

I don't know, usually when I'm coming back from Swansea on the 17:30, I get a coach pretty much to myself and I think a lot of the other coaches are the same. Considering this is effectively a peak hours train it seems rather a waste to be hauling a lot of empty air about west of Cardiff.

 

But for a London train, heading towards London in the afternoon is to a large extent off peak. The heavy loadings are into London in the morning and out in the afternoon. The train heading towards Swansea at that time is probably quite a bit busier.

[Gwiwer]

 

 

Coach J

Would have been in the front 5-cars, IF, Hitachi could sort out reverse formation trains. Everyone else seems to be able to keep trains in the right direction, just not Hitachi.

 

Surely with electronic coach identification this shouldn't matter.  It matters if a set is presented in reverse-formation but if two sets are coupled why can the system not cope with that and have (in this example) J as coach three not coach seven.

 

With regards to splitting and portion working it might be of benefit to those in Torbay to have a few more direct London trains but this would come at the cost of what we are told (in posts some way above) might be a 10-minute stop at Newton Abbot for the purpose.  All well and good if that fits the global timetable.  But referring to the cited example of the Southern Victoria - Littlehampton / Eastbourne trains which I know a lot about having used them frequently for very many years there are people who will travel via and change at Brighton rather than endure the 10-minute wait at Haywards Heath on these trains.  The Electrostars don't need that.  They can split and attach in two minutes. The hanging around is to allow other trains to overtake and is purely a timetabling issue.  It can be quicker to depart later, change at Brighton, overtake the "through" train at Haywards Heath and arrive earlier.  Or vice versa.

 

There is a lot to be said for offering an attractive journey time without loitering.

 

The same argument has to be looked at in terms of the (hopefully still forthcoming) enhanced Cornish timetable with two trains an hour.  We have yet to see details but are rather concerned this will involve smaller stations losing London direct services altogether in favour of "good connections" and of those direct trains which remain being 5-car rather than 9 / 10-car on the spurious basis that there is a greater choice of services.  Anyone travelling regularly through Cornwall will tell you that an 8-car HST can quite often be full as far west as Truro.  A 5-car IET is, quite simply, an overload waiting to happen.  And what in summer with hundreds of extra users many of whom travel with luggage?

[royaloak]

I dont think there should be ANY five car sets

At something like £2.5 million per coach are you paying for all the new carriages needed to make the 5s up to 9s?

No thought not, there isnt loads of money available to buy new trains (especially the stupid way these have been procured) so what there is is what you are getting.

[royaloak]

 Would have been in the front 5-cars, IF, Hitachi could sort out reverse formation trains. Everyone else seems to be able to keep trains in the right direction, just not Hitachi.

No it wouldnt, A-E is the Country end unit and G-L is the London end unit (regardless of which way round the actual units are), where have you got your information from?

[royaloak]

But this should only be a software issue, surely? The units come out of the depot whichever way they do and no amount of software is going to turn a unit round. But making sure that the leading set has one set of coach letters and the trailing set the other could be handled in software. In principle.

It is possible, A-E is Country end and G-L is London end, its the reservation system which is allocating people to the wrong portion!

[jim.snowdon]

It is possible, A-E is Country end and G-L is London end, its the reservation system which is allocating people to the wrong portion!

Except that I walked past a set at Paddington yesterday evening that most definitely had coach A at the buffer stops. Each 5-car unit will have cars whose identitiies are A - E which ever way round it is, and no amount of software can change that as car A is physically not the same as car E. All that software can do is to reallocate A to G, B to H and so on if the unit knows it is coupled to another one. But, since units can be any way round, irrespective of how much their diagrams are designed to avoid them being turned, and pairs of 5-car units can arrive in either order for coupling into one train, it does present some very interesting software challenges that simpy don't exist with indivisible unit trains such as the 9-car sets, HSTs and Pendolinos. Apart from Cross-Country and Virgin WC, with their 220/221 sets, is there anyone else that operates multiple unit trains that couple and divide en-route and which carry seat reservations?

 

Jim

[andy stroud]

At something like £2.5 million per coach are you paying for all the new carriages needed to make the 5s up to 9s?

No thought not, there isnt loads of money available to buy new trains (especially the stupid way these have been procured) so what there is is what you are getting.

No, I am not paying for new carriages and neither are you. That dosent come into it. The railways  are basically busier than ever and yet trains are getting shorter. Are you prepared to put your money where your mouth is and confirm that there wont be any overcrowding on the cornish main line? (or anywhere else where only half of a train turns up) NO, thought not.

Edited January 22, 2019 by andy stroud

[royaloak]

No, I am not paying for new carriages and neither are you. That dosent come into it. The railways  are basically busier than ever and yet trains are getting shorter. Are you prepared to put your money where your mouth is and confirm that there wont be any overcrowding on the cornish main line? (or anywhere else where only half of a train turns up) NO, thought not.

Of course we are paying for the coaches, through taxation, and it bloomin well does come into it!

 

Of course there will be over-crowding when half a train turns up, there already has been, on day 2 (I think) of them running into Cornwall, there will also be over-crowding when it is realised the new timetable has a 5 coach one allocated when a 9 coach one would be more appropriate, like the Primarny Express.

[andy stroud]

Of course we are paying for the coaches, through taxation, and it bloomin well does come into

It. .

I do wish you would make up your mind. In post#5132 you attempted to ridicule me by reminding me that I was not paying for the new stock. When I point out that neither are you, you then say that we all are paying with our taxes and attempt to mock my comments.

 

I am well aware that you drive these things ( as you  keep pointing out to everybody) but that does not mean that you are in any way more qualified to pass judgements  on subjects like train formation than anyone else. It is a matter of opinion and we are all entilted.  You will be sat in a comfortable seat at the front of a train, not stood up in a vestibule after having paid a small fortune to be on the thing. (Having said that, some of the local fares in Devon and Cornwall are very reasonable, perhaps they are subsidised).

Edited January 23, 2019 by andy stroud

[jamie92208]

I do wish you would make up your mind. In post#5132 you attempted to ridicule me by reminding me that I was not paying for the new stock. When I point out that neither are you, you then say that we all are paying with our taxes and attempt to mock my comments.

 

I am well aware that you drive these things ( as you  keep pointing out to everybody) but that does not mean that you are in any way more qualified to pass judgements  on subjects like train formation than anyone else. It is a matter of opinion and we are all entilted.  You will be sat in a comfortable seat at the front of a train, not stood up in a vestibule after having paid a small fortune to be on the thing. (Having said that, some of the local fares in Devon and Cornwall are very reasonable, perhaps they are subsidised).

The way the IET's have been procured, we are all paying for these sets through general taxation. As far as I know the East coast IET's are due to cost twice as much per coach in lease charges than Mk4 stock. I believe that the deal that the DaFT negotiated with Hitachi for the Great Western 802's was rather cheaper but the 800's on the Great Western will be on a similar deal to the ECML ones. These lease charges, which will no doubt have risen because of the fitting of all the extra diesel engines are indirectly paid by the taxpayer in the form of the various support payments to the railways from the Treasury and thus the taxpayer. The deal was an awful one and we will all end up paying for it for years to come just like with PFI for schools and hospitals.

 

Jamie

[caradoc]

No, I am not paying for new carriages and neither are you. That dosent come into it. The railways  are basically busier than ever and yet trains are getting shorter. Are you prepared to put your money where your mouth is and confirm that there wont be any overcrowding on the cornish main line? (or anywhere else where only half of a train turns up) NO, thought not.

 

I agree that replacing an HST with a 5-car Class 800 is a backward step (assuming that the full capacity of the HST was actually required), however it would be interesting to know whether the total number of vehicles (or perhaps more importantly, seats) provided by the new trains is greater or fewer than the trains being replaced ?

 

It is of course up to GWR to allocate set types to appropriate diagrams so as to provide sufficient capacity; Hopefully when all sets are in service issues such as 5-car vice booked 9 or 10, and seat reservation cock-ups as described above, should be greatly reduced if not eliminated.

 

Interesting to see Gwiwer's observation that an HST can be full as far as Truro; How busy would such a train be as far as Plymouth !? Or are there are large numbers joining at Plymouth to replace those alighting there ?

 

Finally, my experience has always been that many 'normal' passengers, as opposed to enthusiasts, very much value through trains, even if the journey time is longer, over having to change, and as mentioned above the 5-car sets should allow a greater range of through services, from more places, to be provided.

[The Stationmaster]

I agree that replacing an HST with a 5-car Class 800 is a backward step (assuming that the full capacity of the HST was actually required), however it would be interesting to know whether the total number of vehicles (or perhaps more importantly, seats) provided by the new trains is greater or fewer than the trains being replaced ?

 

It is of course up to GWR to allocate set types to appropriate diagrams so as to provide sufficient capacity; Hopefully when all sets are in service issues such as 5-car vice booked 9 or 10, and seat reservation cock-ups as described above, should be greatly reduced if not eliminated.

 

Interesting to see Gwiwer's observation that an HST can be full as far as Truro; How busy would such a train be as far as Plymouth !? Or are there are large numbers joining at Plymouth to replace those alighting there ?

 

Finally, my experience has always been that many 'normal' passengers, as opposed to enthusiasts, very much value through trains, even if the journey time is longer, over having to change, and as mentioned above the 5-car sets should allow a greater range of through services, from more places, to be provided.

 

I think - from what I have seen on various trips - the Cornish situation tends to be subject to seasonal variation as on several 'out of season' occasions HSTs have been well under 'half empty' through much of Cornwall but the same train in Summer would be 'full & standing'.  A 5 car IET is of course no substitute for an 8 car HST, let alone a 9 car IET, but it is perhaps better than no train at all if the other half of the formation or the booked set isn't there for whatever reason?  In any event weekend travel patterns throughout the year tend to be different from other days of the week with Fridays being heavy westbound and Sunday afternoons/evenings being heavy eastbound - a situation which exists on many routes due to the attractions of London as a place to work. 

 

There are passengers joining at Plymouth on some workings into Cornwall - off connecting trains mainly plus no doubt originating traffic at certain times of day.

 

The reservation situation is, as Jim outlined, a total shambles with HST reservations seemingly being issued for IETs and the classic example, I saw only a couple of weeks ago, of a 5 car Class 800 set being reverse formed and a lady passenger receiving profuse apologies (which she accepted) from the Senior Conductor.  The shambles will not go away until trains run correctly orientated in the correct diagrams but even then will require close management which, I suspect, is impossible in view of the way sets come off depot into traffic.  Until the latter point is sorted contractually with Hitachi and they face something like penalties for getting it wrong then I don't expect to see any improvement.

[Gwiwer]

There are both planned and unplanned events which affect which way round a train is.  Any train - not just an IET.  The planned ones are taken into account, or should be, in the global rolling stock working programmes and timetabling.  These include the booked reversals at Gloucester.  But if, for any reason, Gloucester cannot be served in one direction then the set will return to London the wrong way round.  Likewise if trains are diverted between Castle Cary and Exeter via Yeovil but only in one direction.  Sometimes these things are planned including for engineering works.  Sometimes emergencies arise.  

 

But the operating system should be flexible enough to cope.  For an HST it is simply a case of information screens showing clearly "First Class at the front" for a down train which says "reverse formation" to anyone in the know.  True all the directional seat reservations will be going in the wrong direction but many passengers will sort themselves out or are simply not bothered.  With the IET the first class might be at the front, rear, both, front and centre or centre and rear.  Very confusing and there is little way of knowing right from wrong for the lay person.

 

In my travels today I noted, among other things, 800003 displaying badly-peeling livery vinyls around most windows.  This looked atrocious on such a new train.  I do have a picture but it's on the iPhone which means it will upload sideways or inverted here until I have had a chance to run it through the desktop software.  Suffice to say that the peeling wasn't slight - we are talking several centimetres and around almost every window.

 

I managed an HST trip up from Cardiff to Bear Terminus.  The contrast with two days of IET travel was stark.  Although the high-back seats restrict visibility (unless you are a fan of blank seat-backs and the "f" logo in your line of sight) the ride was smoother, the suspension was not noticeable, the ambience and internal temperature were warmer and there was a proper buffet car - sorry Express Cafe - though devoid of anything substantial as supplies now assume trolley operation so sandwiches and hot snacks, while still advertised, are no longer on offer.  I have to say the machine coffee was also somewhat better than that stuff from the trolley where you are obliged (and instructed) to drink through a piece of filter paper and by means of a huge lip.  I am not a baby - I don't need a sippy-cup.

 

We made an emergency stop immediately east of Slough.  The announcement made by the train manager referred to "A minor signalling error".  No signalling error is minor to my mind.  As we proceeded with only a few minutes delay I can only imagine that the driver sighted greens (and was certainly travelling as though he had them) but the TPWS grid reverted too quickly and stopped the train.  Whatever the problem it was probably the last occasion on which I shall get to smell HST brakes in full emergency mode - and that is something I won't miss.

[Coryton]

There are both planned and unplanned events which affect which way round a train is.  Any train - not just an IET.  The planned ones are taken into account, or should be, in the global rolling stock working programmes and timetabling.  

 

...

 

But the operating system should be flexible enough to cope.  For an HST it is simply a case of information screens showing clearly "First Class at the front" for a down train which says "reverse formation" to anyone in the know.  

 

...

 

I managed an HST trip up from Cardiff to Bear Terminus.  The contrast with two days of IET travel was stark.  Although the high-back seats restrict visibility (unless you are a fan of blank seat-backs and the "f" logo in your line of sight) the ride was smoother, the suspension was not noticeable, the ambience and internal temperature were warmer and there was a proper buffet car - sorry Express Cafe -

 

But it seems that the reservation system is currently offering seats which are in the wrong part of the train when it's correctly formed, so getting that right would be a start. (I can see there might be constraints in sorting out on-train software quickly* - it's harder to see why 'ground' software can't be sorted out).

 

As for ambience, it's subjective. I much prefer the interior of the IETs to the GWR HSTs in their current form. You can even see out of them after dark.

 

* Although I would have thought they have had enough time now

[rodent279]

Sitting in a pair of 800's on the way to Padd now, 025+027 to be precise.

Reservations seem correct, I am in coach A which is the last one, J being the first, London end.

Regarding ambience-I agree. I prefer the 800 interior, but the ride is definitely not as good as an HST. I rate it as something akin to a rough B4. Choppy, shall we say.

Engines seem to have been on all the way from Parkway, but don't think we were on electric power until at least Swindon if not Didcot. Dark now, so not easy to judge acceleration.

Overall impression-mixed bag, bit of a curate's egg. Not the quantum leap that one would expect from 40+ years of progress.

Edited January 24, 2019 by rodent279

[APOLLO]

How do these trains get to be the wrong way round on the GWR lines - where can they turn around in normal service ?

 

On the WCML I understand that if a Pendolino goes north to Edinburgh, then to Glasgow then south to Carlisle it will be reversed. I've only come across a wrong way round Pendolino (at Wigan) once. Anyway the platform screens & station announcers (at Wigan NW) are very good.

 

The whole 800 (etc) project seems a managerial / political produced nightmare - and we (well, you) have 20 odd years of this "crap" to look forward too !!

 

For the fares charged, having to stand medium / long distance is a disgrace, and such passengers should be refunded - ALL of them - should get management thinking of solutions quick when they get their backsides kicked !!!!

 

Brit15

[Zomboid]

GWR routes seem to be particularly prone to trains being reverse formed. When it was 100% HSTs, I reckon about 1/4 of them turning up at Reading were the wrong way round. Much more likely to happen than on my ECML or WCML journeys.

[phil-b259]

Overall impression-mixed bag, bit of a curate's egg. Not the quantum leap that one would expect from 40+ years of progress.

 

What else would you expect from a micromanaged, DfT run (badly at that) train procurement exercise.

 

GWR are themselves a 'direct award' from same DfT so basically dance to the tune set by the DfT

 

All aspects of train servicing are done by Htachi under a contract let by the DfT meaning GWR have very little say in things like which way round they come off depot.

 

The only real surprise for me is that Hatchi have seemingly produced such a problematic train. Granted they were working under the instruction of the DfT but the Javelins and other trains they have made elsewhere in the world don't seem anywhere near as troublesome.

Edited January 24, 2019 by phil-b259

[Mallard60022]

Blood is beginning to be shed...................................maybe we should just stick to talking about the damn workings and where the units are and not our travel experiences or attitudes to expense/ tax/ambiance etc? I fully understand the feelings of those that have to travel on these things and I am not belittling their feelings, I just want to know where the damn things are and what they look like.

Phil

Edited January 24, 2019 by Mallard60022

[HillsideDepot]

Forgot to post yesterday - 802016 & 802020 were out on yesterday's 5Z20 / 5Z21 mileage accumulation/acceptance trial workings from Stoke Gifford. This is the final pair of 802/0s to be accepted. 

[RJS1977]

How do these trains get to be the wrong way round on the GWR lines - where can they turn around in normal service ?

 

 

 

 

 

There are various places where they can get 'turned around' on diversion - someone has already mentioned Cheltenham trains missing out the Gloucester stop/reversal.

 

Another is for trains from Wales to reverse at Parkway, then head via Filton, avoid Temple Meads, and eastwards via Bath.

 

The first time I rode on one, it had to be reversed on the triangle at Swansea because the doors wouldn't open on one side!

[royaloak]

Sitting in a pair of 800's on the way to Padd now, 025+027 to be precise.

Reservations seem correct, I am in coach A which is the last one, J being the first, London end.

Without photographic evidence I dont believe you. 

 

On a serious note it isnt always the train which is wrong, this morning a 10x802 ran up to Londinium with L-G London end (wrong way round but correct lettering) and A-E Country end right way round and correct lettering, on arrival at Londinium somebody decided to reverse the lettering so G-L was Country end and E-A London end! 

 

All reservations are issued as if the train is an IET (hence HSTs having coaches E and F changed to G and H, some would say a year late but hey ho) so what would actually be useful is if the station screens said which coach (letter) was leading and which was on the rear rather than the next to useless First Class is located in coaches 1,2 9 and 10, which isnt much use if your reservation is in coach E because you dont know which end coach E is.

Edited January 24, 2019 by royaloak