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Class 800 - Updates


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11 hours ago, royaloak said:

It does matter when the set is still being fuelled and prepped when it should be leaving the depot.

 

Which corresponds to the point I was trying to make !!!!! If the set booked as per diagram is not ready any other set of the right type already prepared and fit to complete the diagram can and should be used to get the ECS away on time.

 

When I was responsible (in the joined-up railway days) for allocating scores of EMUs and DMUs to diagrams, the only ones we specified to the depots were those due maintenance or repair; They were free to use all the other sets as they saw fit, as long as Control knew what was going where.

 

 

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21 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

As I am currently aboard 1C82 which is HST vice booked IET

 

1C82 was part of a booked HST Diagram all last week. It is next week as well.

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7 minutes ago, Banger Blue said:

 

1C82 was part of a booked HST Diagram all last week. It is next week as well.

Only because of the tunnel works. The reservation system has it as IET. 

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1C82 is HST in the current valid LTP diagrams (IW3). The week just gone and next week it was/is on IW2 (STP), the following week it reverts back to IW3. My point being was it’s not an HST vice IET if it’s working on a booked HST diagram.

 

Saying that it will be an IET soon enough, perhaps the reservation system (or someone populating it) has got ahead of themselves.

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On 01/03/2019 at 09:33, JJGraphics said:

 

Whilst I don't disagree in general with what you say, the rough-riding of the IEPs I have travelled on does not seem to be consistent with any particular location, they just seem to choose to bounce and bang about almost anywhere. The unpleasant internal noise and floor vibration seems to be fairly consistent across most of the units when on diesel although the vibration transmitted through the floor and seats does seem a lot worse in some than others and is particularly annoying in many of the driving cars which of course don't have engines under the floor.

 

John

I agree absolutely with what Jim said about the causes of rough riding and also my experience on Class 800 IETs corresponds with yours - the 802s I have ridden on to date have been much better.  The fact that the 802s are newer might indicate that the causes of poor, to at times extremely rough, riding on the 800s are age related but then equally on Day 1 of operation the train I rode on experienced some rough riding in places where an 802 on a similar working does ride badly.

 

The only consistent feature in poor riding (but again not on 802s) is through point work, especially facing points but on the 'straight' road and it is noticeable that even high mileage HSTs ride well at those locations which to me means that it is train related and not down to the infrastructure.  Overall I would say - again from my experience - that the ride in the Driving Trailers is worst than that of vehicles which have an engine underneath (and even a man from the DfT on the initial run said that was the case when I criticised the ride quality).

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On ‎01‎/‎03‎/‎2019 at 15:14, eastwestdivide said:

... then the contract needs rewriting and the people who agreed the original contract need a word in their ears?

 

You do realise those 'people' who devised to original contract are safely hold up inside the DfT. If Grayling can still manage to remain in his job despite multiple screw ups then what makes you think the same does not apply to his minions?

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8 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

I agree absolutely with what Jim said about the causes of rough riding and also my experience on Class 800 IETs corresponds with yours - the 802s I have ridden on to date have been much better.  The fact that the 802s are newer might indicate that the causes of poor, to at times extremely rough, riding on the 800s are age related but then equally on Day 1 of operation the train I rode on experienced some rough riding in places where an 802 on a similar working does ride badly.

 

The only consistent feature in poor riding (but again not on 802s) is through point work, especially facing points but on the 'straight' road and it is noticeable that even high mileage HSTs ride well at those locations which to me means that it is train related and not down to the infrastructure.  Overall I would say - again from my experience - that the ride in the Driving Trailers is worst than that of vehicles which have an engine underneath (and even a man from the DfT on the initial run said that was the case when I criticised the ride quality).

The second part of that is interesting, in so much as it provides a clue as to what may be going on. Poor riding through S&C was something that emerged following the adoption of vertical rail through switches and crossings, caused by the way in which the gauge, as measured in terms of the wheel/rail contact patches, changes between normal inclined rail and vertical rail. The effect is to increase the conicity of the wheelset, which decreases its stability. The effect is generally limited to the straight leg of turnouts, ie the main line route, partly because speed has to be reduced for the curved leg, and partly because any bogie with marginal stability will behave on a curve simply by the way the wheelsets are forced into particular positions relative to the gauge.

As to differences between 800s and 802s, are the tyre profiles or other details about the bogies different, given that they were built for different customers under different contracts. It is entirely possible that GWR were more knowledgeable about these issues than whoever advised the DfT, remembering that consultants, on whom the DfT will have been dependent, do not take decisions, only offer guidance for the client.

 

Jim

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10 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

I agree absolutely with what Jim said about the causes of rough riding and also my experience on Class 800 IETs corresponds with yours - the 802s I have ridden on to date have been much better.  The fact that the 802s are newer might indicate that the causes of poor, to at times extremely rough, riding on the 800s are age related but then equally on Day 1 of operation the train I rode on experienced some rough riding in places where an 802 on a similar working does ride badly.

 

The only consistent feature in poor riding (but again not on 802s) is through point work, especially facing points but on the 'straight' road and it is noticeable that even high mileage HSTs ride well at those locations which to me means that it is train related and not down to the infrastructure.  Overall I would say - again from my experience - that the ride in the Driving Trailers is worst than that of vehicles which have an engine underneath (and even a man from the DfT on the initial run said that was the case when I criticised the ride quality).

 

If I dare speculate... Bogies for the 800s have all been manufactured in Japan. Whereas, bogies for the 802s have been manufactured in Italy (apart from 802001/002/003/101). I think everyone in the industry admits that the 800s are what they are due to the IEP TTS. Whereas, Hitachi is able to offer 'customer' specification on any AT-300 build (in the case of GWR/Eversholt = 802s). 

 

What shall be interesting, is on a comparable routes how the Agility East IEP sets (800/801s) compared to TPE 802s (York-Newcastle) and HT 802s (Kings Cross to Doncaster). Yes, I know some of the TPE/HT 802s shall be built in Japan and others in Italy. Which leads me onto...:  

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I've been trying to keep track of the following. Expanding out from GWR accepted units, onto what was built where: 

 

*Note: Kasado is building 20 IEP trainsets for Agility Trains East (allowing delivery to 'speed' up due to NA delays). Ten thus far built/delivered (800103/105/107/109/111/112/113, 801103/105/107). Remaining ten expected from 801/2 (some might have seen me asking this elsewhere, subsequently I have leaned on contacts to get a strong indication that the additional 10 shall be from the 801/2s - there is a reason why the 801/2 delivery needs to be accelerated - nothing to do with 1st Jan 2020 on the ECML but on another line.... speculate away!). 

 

AT300 Builds

 

Kasado, Japan 

 

Complete Trains:

 

800001/002/003/004

800101/103/105/107/109/111/112/113 

800201/202

800301/302/303

801101/102/103/105/107

801201/202*

802001/002

802101

802201/202

802301

(Additional 802s TBC)

 

Body Shells:

 

800005-036

800102/104/106/108/110

800203-210

800304-321

801104/106/108-112

801203-230*

802003 (shipped to Pistoa)

 

Pistoa, Italy

 

Complete Trains:

 

802004-022

802102-114

802203-319 (TBC as Kasado is to build 'additional')

802302-305 (TBC as Kasado is to build 'additional')

 

Fit out:

 

802003

 

Newton Aycliffe, UK

 

Fit out:

 

800005-036

800102/104/106/108/110

800203-210

800304-321

801104/106/108-112

801202-230*

Edited by 159220
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Comments received from train managers and customer hosts (i.e. buffet car / first class trolley) over the past two days suggest GWR is under considerable pressure to improve upon the on-board offering.  

 

Rough riding is now a known issue but affects safe operation of everything from staff walking through trains carrying out their duties to the ability or otherwise to offer  any form of catering service.  It has been my experience that the trolley service aboard the IETs is often pinned down in a doorway by customers seeking the buffet car or giving up hope of the trolley ever arriving.  This has proven to be particularly hazardous when there is a rough-ride moment; drinks have been spilled and both customers and trolley host have been unbalanced.

 

Comments were made yesterday which appear to suggest moves are afoot.  The good folk of Cornwall and Plymouth are, it seems, none too happy that they can no longer obtain hot bacon rolls or even an early morning cuppa on board.  It isn't always possible to purchase before boarding (not all stations have such facilities) and it only adds to the amount of stuff it is necessary to wrangle if boarding with a bag or two, a cup and a snack.  Things might be changed, it seems, due to staff and customer pressure.

 

The overall level of comfort and satisfaction on a round-trip London - Penzance aboard HSTs seemed to be rather better - even to comments overheard such as "thank goodness it's one of these" - than when IETs have been in use.

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I’ve also overheard plenty of positive comments whilst onboard the ‘new trains’ so let’s not try and make out the whole populace hate them!

 

i’m quite sure that if these weren’t replacing the HST, there wouldn’t be half the ‘hysteria’ that does follow them!

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Over time I think rough riding of trains will become the new norm and people will adjust their expectations. Then old fogies like me will be humoured when I remember the time when you could leave a drink on a table without having to hold it etc. And then maybe one day a brainiac will have a genius idea to design a bogie that will improve ride quality and the heavens will rejoice. 

 

 

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18 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

Comments received from train managers and customer hosts (i.e. buffet car / first class trolley) over the past two days suggest GWR is under considerable pressure to improve upon the on-board offering.  

 

Rough riding is now a known issue but affects safe operation of everything from staff walking through trains carrying out their duties to the ability or otherwise to offer  any form of catering service.  It has been my experience that the trolley service aboard the IETs is often pinned down in a doorway by customers seeking the buffet car or giving up hope of the trolley ever arriving.  This has proven to be particularly hazardous when there is a rough-ride moment; drinks have been spilled and both customers and trolley host have been unbalanced.

 

Comments were made yesterday which appear to suggest moves are afoot.  The good folk of Cornwall and Plymouth are, it seems, none too happy that they can no longer obtain hot bacon rolls or even an early morning cuppa on board.  It isn't always possible to purchase before boarding (not all stations have such facilities) and it only adds to the amount of stuff it is necessary to wrangle if boarding with a bag or two, a cup and a snack.  Things might be changed, it seems, due to staff and customer pressure.

 

The overall level of comfort and satisfaction on a round-trip London - Penzance aboard HSTs seemed to be rather better - even to comments overheard such as "thank goodness it's one of these" - than when IETs have been in use.

 

Folk can complain as much as they like, IIRC the current GWR 'franchise' is actually still a management contract issued by the DfT - an organisation which has decreed from on high that there is no need for the likes of buffet cars and who will draw up the franchise contracts accordingly.

 

And yes I know the 802s were ordered by GWR themselves rather than by the 'men from the ministry' so to speak but even so there is a limit to just how much they can alter the basic product...

 

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1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

And yes I know the 802s were ordered by GWR themselves rather than by the 'men from the ministry' so to speak but even so there is a limit to just how much they can alter the basic product...

 

There is, but how much can be altered depends on the nature of the change, how many (trains) you are ordering and how willing the manufacturer is willing to adjust his production line to accommodate such changes. Some variations are quite easy to accommodate, others are not.

 

Jim

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1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

And yes I know the 802s were ordered by GWR themselves rather than by the 'men from the ministry' so to speak but even so there is a limit to just how much they can alter the basic product...

 

 

More than that, GWR took the decision that, from a passenger point of view, an 802 should look just like an 800, including the catering capability. I've had conversations with the managers concerned who stated that well before the first 802 was delivered.

 

At one time, on this very thread, there was great doubt about the ability to serve Pullman meals on IET's but now GWR is advertising the facility widely on its Twitter feed, even celebrating St David's day with a special Welsh Breakfast.

 

Sure, IETs aren't to everybody's liking, but I remember how much effort we used to put into avoiding HSTs to get a loco-hauled train and find all this "HSTs are great" amusing. Whether the preference be HST over IET; class 50 and air-cons over HST; Western and Mk1s over Hoover and air-cons; steam over diesel, maybe what we all really want is an open wooden wagon with bench seats, as displayed at GWS Didcot!   

 

Like them or not, 802107 and 8 were on Acceptance Trials late last week, with 802110 arriving at North Pole earlier in the week. 43002 has had its front smartened up, possibly in preparation for whatever GWR have planned to mark the end of the HSTs high-speed reign. In other words, we're very nearly at the end of the transition.

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1 hour ago, jjb1970 said:

Over time I think rough riding of trains will become the new norm and people will adjust their expectations. Then old fogies like me will be humoured when I remember the time when you could leave a drink on a table without having to hold it etc. And then maybe one day a brainiac will have a genius idea to design a bogie that will improve ride quality and the heavens will rejoice. 

 

 

 

There's nothing like optimism and that's nothing like optimism. 

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Popped into town on Saturday briefly and caught this just leaving going north - 800102 running on electric power, 5Q33 departed 14:56. According to RTT it was running Peterborough-York most of the day on a shuttle basis.

 

IMG_0142.JPG.9bea345513b54afdffb3dd790750c165.JPG

Edited by Richard E
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22 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

The overall level of comfort and satisfaction on a round-trip London - Penzance aboard HSTs seemed to be rather better - even to comments overheard such as "thank goodness it's one of these" - than when IETs have been in use.

That's progress for you!

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2 hours ago, HillsideDepot said:

Sure, IETs aren't to everybody's liking, but I remember how much effort we used to put into avoiding HSTs to get a loco-hauled train and find all this "HSTs are great" amusing. Whether the preference be HST over IET; class 50 and air-cons over HST; Western and Mk1s over Hoover and air-cons; steam over diesel, maybe what we all really want is an open wooden wagon with bench seats, as displayed at GWS Didcot!  

 

I appreciate the open wooden wagon comment was tongue in cheek but it does illustrate the issue - when they were replaced with enclosed coaches I very much doubt people complained. It's easy to dismiss grumbles with "people always complain about anything new". They don't when it makes a real difference, but that requires what it's replacing to be significantly unpleasant. When something reaches the point where it does the job well enough you'll inevitably get bickering when it changes between people who hate change and those who will only be satisfied with the next new thing.

 

As for the rest, that just tells me that every time something new comes along now people realise "blimey, and I thought the last change was bad!" :)

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4 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

There is, but how much can be altered depends on the nature of the change, how many (trains) you are ordering and how willing the manufacturer is willing to adjust his production line to accommodate such changes. Some variations are quite easy to accommodate, others are not.

 

Jim

The impression I got, from front-line staff rather than any “official” source, is that GWR intend to work with what they’ve got rather than make changes to trains they don’t own. 

 

You may interpret that as you wish but my version is that the existing kitchen area may become a serving area at the risk of upsetting first class customers when the standard ones walk through, queue and return. 

 

I suspect that will be argued to be safer than a trolley on busy trains and will permit the sale of hot snacks. There already is capacity to stock sandwiches etc. but the trolleys have no chilled holding area so cannot display them.  My experience has been that very little food is offered on WoE IETs but Bristol and South Wales trips usually have at least one variety of sandwich. 

 

Who ever signed off on the design seems to have little understanding of customer needs. Paddington - Bristol is a quite short trip these days as is Cardiff. But Plymouth and all points west remain a rather more remote from London with travel times up to (and sometimes exceeding) six hours. 

 

If Pullman dining is good enough for the few (and when it has been provided it has been very good) then the rest should at least be able to do better than hope for a cup of coffee once in six hours if the trolley passes through. 

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5 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

Over time I think rough riding of trains will become the new norm and people will adjust their expectations. Then old fogies like me will be humoured when I remember the time when you could leave a drink on a table without having to hold it etc. And then maybe one day a brainiac will have a genius idea to design a bogie that will improve ride quality and the heavens will rejoice. 

 

 

Ah, Roger Ford's old 'Modern Railways' 50p piece test. Stand a 50p piece on edge, on the table and time how long it took to fall over. (CJL)

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On 22/02/2019 at 12:25, Oldddudders said:

As far as “better than buckeye” couplers are concerned, I think the Southern’s PEP units were among the first, using Scharfenburg kit. [Anecdotal trivia, not supported by any facts here : These units should have been PER, having electro-rheostatic braking, rather than PEP, implying electro-pneumatic. The story goes that the bullish GM of the day called them PEP at the press launch, and the whole manual had to be reprinted!]

 

 

 

...and that 'error' was the to the glee of the spotter fraternity, who immediately coined the translation of the acronym to be 'Pack 'Em Perpendicular'... :)

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2 hours ago, Richard E said:

Popped into town on Saturday briefly and caught this just leaving going north - 800102 running on electric power, 5Q33 departed 14:56. According to RTT it was running Peterborough-York most of the day on a shuttle basis.

 

IMG_0142.JPG.9bea345513b54afdffb3dd790750c165.JPG

 

I like the orientation instruction at the rear of the first coach...

 

 

Edited by talisman56
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41 minutes ago, dibber25 said:

Ah, Roger Ford's old 'Modern Railways' 50p piece test. Stand a 50p piece on edge, on the table and time how long it took to fall over. (CJL)

 

I think the record for the shortness of time between vertical and horizontal was about 0.2sec - Brighton Belle.

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41 minutes ago, dibber25 said:

Ah, Roger Ford's old 'Modern Railways' 50p piece test. Stand a 50p piece on edge, on the table and time how long it took to fall over. (CJL)

 

Used to be a threepeny bit, didn't it? With the advantage that it had straight rather than curved sides.

 

(As a complete aside, why do the 20 and 50 p coins not have straight sides? Because they have a constant diameter, which is useful for vending and coin-sorting machines.)

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