Class 800 - Updates

[Johann Marsbar]

Just now, iands said:

OLE brought down by an Azuma - again! 

Indeed.................

https://www.flickr.com/photos/72399068@N08/48250230292/in/dateposted/

 

 

[Mallard60022]

Just now, iands said:

OLE brought down by an Azuma - again! 

Again eh? They are so rough those naughty, new trains. Great big and new Pants that keep breaking the infrastructure. Wonder which one was the culprit this time. NR must be so happy...………………...LNER will be so happy. Loads of passengers will be so happy.

[Mallard60022]

2 minutes ago, Johann Marsbar said:

Indeed.................

https://www.flickr.com/photos/72399068@N08/48250230292/in/dateposted/

 

 

Hardly looks like anything does it? Presumably the panto was ###### and that little 'ball of tangled stuff' is the remains of something? The Signallers at Donny must have had to pull out all the stops today for stuff north of Retford. I do hope this isn't going to highlight the 'fragility' of the ECML OHL.

P

[Johann Marsbar]

1 minute ago, Mallard60022 said:

Hardly looks like anything does it? Presumably the panto was ###### and that little 'ball of tangled stuff' is the remains of something? The Signallers at Donny must have had to pull out all the stops today for stuff north of Retford. I do hope this isn't going to highlight the 'fragility' of the ECML OHL.

P

I had to abort my day trip to Doncaster today, but the train I caught (09.59 ex P'boro) ended up being used to inspect the route for damage. We got as far as Tallington, passing the Azuma, but the OHLE damage on the up fast got worse and I believe it was more extensive further on, as we were unable to head any further north. Train eventually reversed to Peterborough, arriving 185 mins after we left, covering all of about 7 miles each way.........

The stranded Azuma still had all its passengers onboard as we headed back to P'boro!

[Mallard60022]

2 minutes ago, Johann Marsbar said:

I had to abort my day trip to Doncaster today, but the train I caught (09.59 ex P'boro) ended up being used to inspect the route for damage. We got as far as Tallington, passing the Azuma, but the OHLE damage on the up fast got worse and I believe it was more extensive further on, as we were unable to head any further north. Train eventually reversed to Peterborough, arriving 185 mins after we left, covering all of about 7 miles each way.........

The stranded Azuma still had all its passengers onboard as we headed back to P'boro!

Grief. Do you happen to know if they were diverting some HST stuff from Peterborough up the Midland or not bothering and just using road transport? Must be difficult to get crews sorted for anything like that. That would have been an up from Leeds I should think? Also how on earth do you evacuate that Azuma if that had to be done

P

Phil

[Reorte]

On 08/07/2019 at 18:59, Hilux5972 said:

I do like that LNER livery. Suits the train very well. That being said i am a fan of the GWR livery too.

 

Have to say that it looks pretty decent, and it looks like the sort of modern design that I normally can't stand.

[4630]

21 minutes ago, iands said:

OLE brought down by an Azuma - again! 

 

Whilst there’s no doubt that that was the end result, what is unclear so far is whether the Azuma was ‘provoked’ by a defect in the OLE, or whether it was entirely down to an issue with the Azuma’s pan?

 

Answers on a postcard primarily to Messrs Hitachi and Network Rail.

 

I’m assuming that LNER are probably off the hook as their involvement is to drive Azumas and not maintain them.  

[Johann Marsbar]

19 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

Grief. Do you happen to know if they were diverting some HST stuff from Peterborough up the Midland or not bothering and just using road transport? Must be difficult to get crews sorted for anything like that. That would have been an up from Leeds I should think? Also how on earth do you evacuate that Azuma if that had to be done

P

Phil

Saw 1 (extra working) HST call at P'boro around 13.10 (to Inverness) which went up the GN/GE Joint via Lincoln. Think the 13xx Grand Central from Peterborough to Sunderland(?) was going that way. Replacement buses P'boro-Grantham were announced whilst I was waiting for the 13.50 Ipswich service.  Nothing about to drag the electric services via alternative routes.

A good "Is your journey really necessary?" day..........

The HST I was on was still sitting in platform 3, going nowhere, when my train left at 13.50.

[Siberian Snooper]

At least the zoomers on the GW have enough diesel engines to carry on if the knitting gets in a tangle,  whereas your LNER zoomers can only limp to the next station when it goes pear shaped, so perhaps the cockup with getting the knitting up is a blessing in disguise.

 

 

 

[Chris116]

22 minutes ago, Siberian Snooper said:

At least the zoomers on the GW have enough diesel engines to carry on if the knitting gets in a tangle,  whereas your LNER zoomers can only limp to the next station when it goes pear shaped, so perhaps the cockup with getting the knitting up is a blessing in disguise.

 

 

 

Trouble is that if the overhead wires are down most of the time it would not be safe to run anything through the area. 

[iands]

1 hour ago, Mallard60022 said:

Again eh? They are so rough those naughty, new trains. Great big and new Pants that keep breaking the infrastructure. Wonder which one was the culprit this time. NR must be so happy...………………...LNER will be so happy. Loads of passengers will be so happy.

And I presume Hitachi will be extremely happy!

[iands]

1 hour ago, 4630 said:

 

Whilst there’s no doubt that that was the end result, what is unclear so far is whether the Azuma was ‘provoked’ by a defect in the OLE, or whether it was entirely down to an issue with the Azuma’s pan?

 

Answers on a postcard primarily to Messrs Hitachi and Network Rail.

 

I’m assuming that LNER are probably off the hook as their involvement is to drive Azumas and not maintain them.  

Yes you're right 4630, without knowing the full facts surrounding this incident it is perhaps wrong to apportion all the blame on the Azuma at this time. Even though this is the second such incident in the last 2-3 weeks (is there a trend in the making?) the 'causal factor' (to use an RAIB phrase) may lie with an OLE defect, again perhaps, exacerbated by the previous train but totally found out by the Azuma.

[Mallard60022]

1 hour ago, Johann Marsbar said:

Saw 1 (extra working) HST call at P'boro around 13.10 (to Inverness) which went up the GN/GE Joint via Lincoln. Think the 13xx Grand Central from Peterborough to Sunderland(?) was going that way. Replacement buses P'boro-Grantham were announced whilst I was waiting for the 13.50 Ipswich service.  Nothing about to drag the electric services via alternative routes.

A good "Is your journey really necessary?" day..........

The HST I was on was still sitting in platform 3, going nowhere, when my train left at 13.50.

Yes there was a bit of a 'shuttle' going on from Grantham to Donny.

P

[jim.snowdon]

25 minutes ago, iands said:

Yes you're right 4630, without knowing the full facts surrounding this incident it is perhaps wrong to apportion all the blame on the Azuma at this time. Even though this is the second such incident in the last 2-3 weeks (is there a trend in the making?) the 'causal factor' (to use an RAIB phrase) may lie with an OLE defect, again perhaps, exacerbated by the previous train but totally found out by the Azuma.

Pantographs do not usually break the OLE. More normally it is a defect in the OLE that breaks the pantograph, and then gets further deranged by the now broken pantograph.

More will come to light in due course, but the pantograph in the picture looks to have suffered the classic symptoms of having run into something hanging below the contact wire, and the OLE above it is still under tension.

 

Jim

[Mallard60022]

5 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said:

Pantographs do not usually break the OLE. More normally it is a defect in the OLE that breaks the pantograph, and then gets further deranged by the now broken pantograph.

More will come to light in due course, but the pantograph in the picture looks to have suffered the classic symptoms of having run into something hanging below the contact wire, and the OLE above it is still under tension.

 

Jim

Favourite around this way (North) Notts and south towards PB, are plastic bags, often from farming areas where they have used them for chemicals and then they have not stowed them well (or just chucked them which I have seen happen …….) and the wind picks them up and occasionally they get caught on the OH lines. Then there is the plastic sheeting that gets moved when they are harvesting crops.  That can be shredded by machinery and blow away. There is also the rubbish that blows from badly covered waste trucks on their way to wherever. Of course there is also the usual mess from building sites and maybe even lineside work?

P

[Coryton]

On 06/07/2019 at 20:35, jim.snowdon said:

It's been many years since I travelled on DB and SNCF, but my recollection is that whilst they retained a base level walk-on service for inter-city services, the faster services (IC rather than the ordinary RE, or Regional Express) required a supplement to the base fare, and in at least some cases, mandatory reservations.

 

Jim

 

At least as of last year, only a few ICE services have compulsory reservations, so unlike most countries the majority of services on high speed lines didn't require a reservation. Rather than a base fare and supplements, there are different fares for Regional, and ICE trains.

 

On 06/07/2019 at 21:13, Mallard60022 said:

I agree, however there are well known 'totally loaded in advance' services on the ECML from London to Scotland and (presumably) the other way? They are well known to the staff who will not put 'abandoned because of another services failure to run passengers' on these if at all possible. So maybe they could introduce a few really long distance trains that are actually advance booking only, especially when there are a load of other services to choose from? I think there have been trains like this in the past; was the Midland Pullman one of them? Were some ER prestige Expresses like this (Elizabethan?) I have forgotten. 

 

There certainly used to be quite a few "reservations compulsory" trains but it seems to have gone out of fashion now. I think at least in some cases there was a system to let an appropriate number of passengers without reservations board (accommodation tickets?)

 

On 07/07/2019 at 09:34, 31A said:

The only seat reservations we saw in Belgium were a few for school groups, which were indicated by window labels - there doesn't seem to be any provision for seat reservations by individuals.  It's truly 'turn up and go' which to my mind is one great advantage of the railway over plane or long distance coach.  And although it's quite a small country some of the journeys can be two or three hours.

 

To the best of my knowledge Holland and Switzerland are the same and possibly Austria although it's a long time since I've been there.  And in this country I believe Southern Railway and South Western Railway don't provide seat reservations despite running over some quite long 'inter city' type routes.

 

This removes so much hassle, you just get on, sit in the nearest suitable empty seat and admire the view.  No squinting at displays or labels to see whether reserved, if so where from / to, having to eject someone who's sat in your seat, being challenged by someone that they've reserved the seat you're in only to find out that they're in the wrong coach / train, people thrashing up and down aisles because the seat they've reserved is at the other end of the coach, 'no shows', wrong formations, computer failures etc. etc. etc.

 

On the other hand, if you're travelling from an intermediate stop on a busy train, especially in a group, it's rather nice to be able to reserve seats together. I wouldn't' like to see seat reservations abandoned.

 

NS don't do reservations on domestic journeys (or to Belgium). They certainly exist in Switzerland though, and not just on "special" trains like the Glacier Express. 

[iands]

24 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said:

Pantographs do not usually break the OLE. More normally it is a defect in the OLE that breaks the pantograph, and then gets further deranged by the now broken pantograph.

More will come to light in due course, but the pantograph in the picture looks to have suffered the classic symptoms of having run into something hanging below the contact wire, and the OLE above it is still under tension.

 

Jim

I agree with you Jim, it is usually a fault with the OLE that gets found out by a pantograph in most cases - but not always. Case in point being one of the GWR "800s" out of Paddington last October/November time that was clearly a "pantograph fault that brought the OLE down" occasion (I've seen the 'pan camera' video of the event). 

[Oldddudders]

We know the 1990 ECML electrification was done 'on the cheap' - Project Director Don Heath was my boss from about the time of commissioning - but I assume NR has done some re-inforcement since. Perhaps not. The fact is that the complexities of this wretched private industry mean that NR and Hitachi presumably have no formal relationship. How are interface issues and equipment characteristics supposed to be discussed to mutual advantage?

[jim.snowdon]

36 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

Favourite around this way (North) Notts and south towards PB, are plastic bags, often from farming areas where they have used them for chemicals and then they have not stowed them well (or just chucked them which I have seen happen …….) and the wind picks them up and occasionally they get caught on the OH lines. Then there is the plastic sheeting that gets moved when they are harvesting crops.  That can be shredded by machinery and blow away. There is also the rubbish that blows from badly covered waste trucks on their way to wherever. Of course there is also the usual mess from building sites and maybe even lineside work?

P

And party balloons, and supermarket carrier bags.......the list goes on.

 

Not that good old third rail is exactly immune from events such as bicycles and shopping trolleys dropped across the conductor rail and/or wrapped round the shoegear.

 

Jim 

[iands]

9 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

We know the 1990 ECML electrification was done 'on the cheap'

The ECML Electrification was "costed" correctly, with the original scheme only going as far as Newcastle. The scheme was then "extended" though to Edinburgh, but crucially the Government said no more money was available to cover the "extension costs", and money would have to be found from within the existing project funding. Hence the ECML Electrification design was "squeezed" to extract every possible saving in order to reach Edinburgh. The industry is somewhat still dealing with this legacy and all its inherent problems. That said, the ECML OLE has received some "reinforcement" in selected areas over the years. 

[Titan]

That incident looks like a classic "hook over". That is when the pantograph gets forced past the contact wire and hooks over it.  The pan is then constrained between the two wires, so it does not auto drop due to over height. It will run for a few spans ripping down droppers as it goes - it is the droppers it has managed to collect on it's way that you can see wrapped around the pan - until something more drastic happens, in this case the pan seems to have broken its back and flipped over backwards.

 

Several possible causes, but the two most likely is:

 

1. A pan with excessive uplift - if it is pushing too hard on the wire then it could lift it high enough at speed such that on an overlap or crossover the incoming wire slips under the pan instead of over it.

 

2. An OLE defect such as excessive stagger, badly set up overlap/crossover etc.

 

Unlikely to be wind related which is most probably the most common cause of hook overs, but quite possibly a combination of the above two.

[TravisM]

5 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

Grief. Do you happen to know if they were diverting some HST stuff from Peterborough up the Midland or not bothering and just using road transport? Must be difficult to get crews sorted for anything like that. That would have been an up from Leeds I should think? Also how on earth do you evacuate that Azuma if that had to be done

P

Phil

 

Norwich - Liverpool services were diverted via Stamford, Melton Mowbray and Loughborough with coaches to Grantham.

[TravisM]

4 hours ago, Johann Marsbar said:

 

The HST I was on was still sitting in platform 3, going nowhere, when my train left at 13.50.

 

I feel sorry for the driver of 1S10, the 10.16 Edinburgh Waverley from Peterborough (Class 91 and Mk IV’s) on sitting on Platform 4.  He finished his shift at York and he was still there,  waiting for control to sort something out when I left the station at 13.35

[Mallard60022]

11 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

And party balloons, and supermarket carrier bags.......the list goes on.

 

Not that good old third rail is exactly immune from events such as bicycles and shopping trolleys dropped across the conductor rail and/or wrapped round the shoegear.

 

Jim 

Oh I had forgotten those blasted party Balloons that are also a real nuisance around farmland, but this time to the farmers. Also those damn Lantern things that fortunately seem to have almost disappeared.

Fortunately there does seem to be a reduction in plastic carrier bags, however there are still many draped in the branches of trees around here and they reappear every winter.

A couple of years ago there was an OHL incident near here, after high winds moved a trampoline from a garden adjoining the railway in a cutting and cunningly draped it across there OHL; then there was the bloke near Bawtry who decided the very large/tall tree in his garden (not the same one AFAIK) should be cut and it fell gracefully into a cutting and across both OHL sets. I do hope he was prosecuted for that but I never heard any more about it back then.

On a lighter note, a Blackbird's nest I removed from a damaged hedge earlier this year, was most beautifully made, really solid construction and had a waterproof 'membrane' of some smallish plastic wrappers of some sort. It was expertly woven into the usual mix of twigs and moss and other natural bits and bobs. 

Just as a small aside, when I was on HS1 a couple of weeks ago I admired the engineering of that line once the concrete jungle of the suburbs had been left. Looked pretty good to me and indicative of the constraints on so much of our existing routes. OHL still vulnerable to 'sh1t happens' though presumably.

Phil

[Fat Controller]

Before CDs, and then USB keys/ streaming, arrived, we used to get lots of catenary trips when lorry drivers used to throw damaged tapes out of their cabs. They used to drape themselves over the catenary, then disintegrate once one end caught the contact wire.