Class 800 - Updates

[caradoc]

800314 was at Banbury at 1515 today (not in passenger service !) Presumably a test/training run prior to the December timetable change ?

[Gwiwer]

A return to the days of the 17.42 Paddington - Banbury via High Wycombe would be nice!  It can't take the old route but could still turn right at West Ealing and left at Greenford

 

[talisman56]

On 20/11/2019 at 20:14, Gwiwer said:

And on the dreaded "Cig vice Big" it was bad enough to have a misformed train.  The Big should have been the middle unit of three in a 12-car train.  Sometimes it led or trailed meaning the hapless commuters would have as much as an 11-car trek for their G&T / Cheese-on-toast ("With Worcester Sauce, Sir?") and sometimes got caught out at their short-platform destinations having dozed in the misplaced buffet for a little too long.  Bep vice Big was a rare treat on the Brighton line though the norm on the Mid-Sussex where Bigs were uncommon.  

 

 

When I was travelling frequently on the Central Division, the Victoria-Ore services were diagrammed to have the Big as the front unit in a 8- or 12-car train as it was left at the bufferstops on the reversal at Eastbourne, the Cig(s) running up to Ore and back...

 

Our ideal substitution was Cep vice Cig, as it gave us more compartments to choose from.

[caradoc]

11 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

A return to the days of the 17.42 Paddington - Banbury via High Wycombe would be nice!  It can't take the old route but could still turn right at West Ealing and left at Greenford

 

 

I believe there will be a Paddington/Banbury peak hours express each way formed by a Class 800, albeit running via Oxford and not Bicester !

[Oldddudders]

802 113 brought me safely from NA to Padlington yesterday as the Golden Hind. A bit late from Plymouth, but also held up outside NA as some sort of sleeper was sitting in the down main platform, so the Bristol - PZ had precedence for the Up Main. But then we sat at Taunton awaiting relief driver, who apparently came off a down train. I was still in plenty of time for my Eurostar.

[The Stationmaster]

11 hours ago, caradoc said:

 

I believe there will be a Paddington/Banbury peak hours express each way formed by a Class 800, albeit running via Oxford and not Bicester !

07.45 Banbury - Paddington (formed off the 06.19 ex Paddington due 07.35)  and 18.28 Paddington - Banbury.  The latter runs non-stop Paddington to Oxford, arrive 19.13 thence non-stop to Banbury arrive 19.34 which forms the 19.44 back to Paddington.

 

The 07.45 arrives Paddington at 09.01 in direct competition with the 07.50 Banbury which arrives Marylebone at 09.00.  The 18.28 Paddington looks to be direct competition with the 18.21 Marylebone which terminates Banbury at 1939 and the 18.47 Marylebone which arrives Banbury at 19.50.   All in the name of passenger customer choice I presume 

[Zomboid]

They'd need to run a lot more than 2 per day before I'd head to Paddington in preference to Marylebone if I were going to Banbury.

[Gwiwer]

15 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

They'd need to run a lot more than 2 per day before I'd head to Paddington in preference to Marylebone if I were going to Banbury.

And they would need to be more comfortable than an 800 if I were to give up the relative delights of a 168.  Although if the Banbury were a 165 it would even the playing field a little.

[Zomboid]

There's no 1821 in the Chiltern timetable I just downloaded, but the 1815 MYB to Kidderminster (Banbury 1909) is advertised as a Mark 3 & 68 set. No competition there, but I would take an 800 over a 168 personally.

[Gwiwer]

The Kiddys are definitely Mk3 sets with a 68. 

[talisman56]

Picking up my tickets for my next trip out and there was a notice on the ticket machine at Yatton. 

 

Apparently the first two up services to Paddington ex-Weston-super-Mare will be one 5-car set, which will couple up to a second one at BTM to form the full train to London.

 

This is for staff and customers to get used to the procedure, which will become the norm once the new timetable is in operation.

[Gwiwer]

From the new timetable there will apparently be numerous 5-car workings through Cornwall adding (in theory) another unit at Plymouth and of necessity detaching one on the down.  All well and good in theory except that for some time now many daytime workings through Cornwall have been fully-loaded 8-car HST formations and 8 into 5 won't fit.  The additional services on offer will do little to help if they are not at the right time and will be of no help at all to those wishing to travel beyond Plymouth which is often most of the loading.  

 

Time will tell.  Some alterations could be made in May in the light of experience.  

 

I have yet to receive a reply to my enquiry to GWR asking why they are promoting faster journey times when those to Cornwall will mostly be at best no faster, some are slower and the headline 4h 55m journey of the early morning Up train is slowed by a full 15 minutes leaving no sub-five hour workings.

 

There was once an HST trip booked and achieving 4h 30m Paddington - Penzance and numerous others under 5 hours.  Stopping patterns were similar to those about to be introduced in December namely fast Reading - Taunton in most cases.  A more modern train built for 140mph should be able to better those times not take longer to make fewer stops.  

 

This is not progress.  

[phil-b259]

3 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

From the new timetable there will apparently be numerous 5-car workings through Cornwall adding (in theory) another unit at Plymouth and of necessity detaching one on the down.  All well and good in theory except that for some time now many daytime workings through Cornwall have been fully-loaded 8-car HST formations and 8 into 5 won't fit.  The additional services on offer will do little to help if they are not at the right time and will be of no help at all to those wishing to travel beyond Plymouth which is often most of the loading.  

 

Time will tell.  Some alterations could be made in May in the light of experience. 

 

 

The problem is the number of 800s which have been ordered may not be enough!

 

If GWR / DfT based the number of sets on splitting at Plymouth then there simply may not be enough available to cease the practice and send 10 cars through to Penzance

 

Similar concerns could well exist at Cardiff where many Swansea trains will lose / gain 5 cars.

[jim.snowdon]

2 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

A more modern train built for 140mph should be able to better those times not take longer to make fewer stops.  

The train may be built for 140mph, but the railway isn't, so the only way an 800 can improve on HST timings is by being able to accelerate and brake faster, which it can only really achieve, at least for acceleration, when running as an electric.

 

There is, of course, always the PR "fiddle" whereby train times are quietly extended in the run up to the new timetable, and delays due to electrification are a good source of inspiration for this. Then, the new timetable appears to be an improvement, except to those with longer memories than most of the travelling public.

 

Jim

[royaloak]

2 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

Time will tell.  Some alterations could be made in May in the light of experience.  

No they cant, the December timetable is it, full stop, there arent any spare trains anymore (actually we havent got enough but thats another story) so no services can be extended into Kernow without the next London service being 5 vice 10, the 9 car sets are off to the Cotswolds so they arent an option either. 

 

What 'they' have decided is what 'we' have to deliver even though the station working and Sectional Running Times dont allow enough time for the various conflicting movements such as IETs being shunted across from P4 to P7 or P8 (no account for signal overlaps) or trains clearing the single line sections without the next train getting caution signals, 2 minutes after a train clears Largin the one in the opposite is supposed to be entering the single line section, there is no way that can be done without the second train getting a yellow (and so approach the red at reduced speed meaning it will be late onto the section and then late off the other end and so late at Saltash delaying the next down train, which will then present late at Largin and so delay the next up train and so on and so on. As all recovery and (as far as I can see) engineering allowances have been removed we no longer have the ability to make up time so all it takes is for one service to be a few minutes late or a 20 ESR/TSR and the whole lot will cascade fail, but hey it works on paper!

 

I certainly wont be busting a gut trying to make up time (the best I have managed was making up 23 minutes between Plymouth and Penzance on a 9 car IET (1 engine out and driving like I stole it, 50 at the ramp at various stations ) on 1C88 the 1803 PAD to PNZ because I wanted to make sure I got away from PNZ in front of the sleeper, I did because they had seen how well I was doing and agreed with the signaller to hold the sleeper a few minutes to get me away first, come December 15th we wont be able to make anything like that up.

 

Edit-

Come December 15th that train is 8 minutes quicker from Plymouth to Penzance with an extra stop (St Germans).

Edited November 24, 2019 by royaloak

[TravisM]

Does anyone have a update of LNER Class 800’s that are now in regular passenger service?  I appreciate that you can strike 800109 off the list for now lol.

[Gwiwer]

Quote

all it takes is for one service to be a few minutes late or a 20 ESR/TSR and the whole lot will cascade fail,

I get the same at work every day.  The auto-announcer calls it "congestion".  The real humans call it trying to squeeze too much out of a system which isn't capable of delivering.  But if we cut a few trains out who loses service?  How do we choose?  And what happens to those displaced customers when several 10-car fully-laden suburban trains no longer run?  It's bad now and it's getting worse.  But it may get far worse that this unless something meaningful is done urgently.  It hasn't helped us one bit (at CLJ) to have signallers moved out to Basingstoke and no longer having local knowledge nor eyes on actual movements.   

[phil-b259]

24 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

 It hasn't helped us one bit (at CLJ) to have signallers moved out to Basingstoke and no longer having local knowledge nor eyes on actual movements.   

 

The only signalling area being moved to Basingstoke ROC  is the area controlled by Feltham. The West of England Line, although moved to Basingstoke, is actually a panel installed in the 1970s box.

 

All the other signalling has remained unaltered in terms of control from BR days.

 

Transfer of signalling is expensive - and there isn't the money to go round transferring stuff unless (i) the existing on the ground kit is life expired (e.g. Feltham) or there is a major remodelling going on (e.g. London Bridge)

 

What HAS happened is the transfer of Train Running Control from Waterloo to Basingstoke - nothing to do with signalling (apart from its control who tell the signallers where to run stuff at times of disruption).

[Gwiwer]

The point being that Basingstoke call the shots and have no sight nor - in many cases due to the non-relocation of many staff - local knowledge of what their decision-making does at the coal face.

 

And now back to the storyline

[caradoc]

2 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

The point being that Basingstoke call the shots and have no sight nor - in many cases due to the non-relocation of many staff - local knowledge of what their decision-making does at the coal face.

 

And now back to the storyline

 

Control staff do not need to see trains to do their job ! From 1981 to 2014 BR Scottish Region/Railtrack & Network Rail Scotland/Scotrail Controls were located in Buchanan House, Glasgow, from where not a single train could be seen.

 

I do agree however that relocation of Control Offices can have a serious effect on the local knowledge of their staff, this was most starkly seen when EWSR concentrated their staff at Doncaster; Very few relocated from Glasgow. And NR's concentration of Train Planning at Milton Keynes had a similar effect.

[The Stationmaster]

6 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

The point being that Basingstoke call the shots and have no sight nor - in many cases due to the non-relocation of many staff - local knowledge of what their decision-making does at the coal face.

 

And now back to the storyline

They didn't have any sight of the railway on the Central Section (as was) when they were at Waterloo and there have, as 'Caradoc' has mentioned. been plenty of Control Offices for many years from which you coudn't see the railway and in teh case of some Controllers quite possibly never had seen the bit they dealt with - nothing new there.   Victoria signalling centre for the central side hasn't moved although I doubt many of the staff ever get a chance to look out of what windows it has and they definitely can't see Victoria from there but they still work it.

 

Yes, Waterloo Control has been moved to Basingstoke and no, a lot of the previous staff didn't want to move for whatever reason and took redundancy so new staff had to be recruited and trained,  That change definitely impacted badly in the introduction of SWR's first timetable  due to Control staff inexperience.  But inexperience in a Control has very little to do with being able to look out of the window at what you're controlling and numerous BR Controls didn't have any view of any part of the railway.  My freight Controllers at Swindon and Friars Bridge Court in the early 1990s couldn't see any railway at all but that didn't stop them doing a good job, in fact being able to look out and watch some trains going by is probably as much of a distraction as anything else.

 

And Controllers without local knowledge isn't necessarily the point.  what they need is the knowledge to do their job and that isn't quite the same thing as local know;ledge because they are making decisions affecting a much wider area and are unliely to know all of it in any detail.  That is nothing new - in my direct experience it was no different back in the 1970s

[Indomitable026]

There was a TPE launch at York today.

 

 

[Harry Lime]

Possibly the ugliest looking livery - makes it look like a lizard...

Edited November 27, 2019 by Harry Lime

[Afroal05]

Some of the new Hull Trains set too...

[PaulCheffus]

2 hours ago, Harry Lime said:

Poosibly the ugliest looking livery - makes it look like a lizard...

Hi

 

Personally I quite like it but then I also like A-10 tank busters.

 

Cheers

 

Paul