Class 800 - Updates

[iands]

6 minutes ago, 62613 said:

 

The fencing is a temporary arrangement to keep works staff a safe distance from a line open to traffic. Allows normal running of trains and is a safer method than using lookouts, and is quicker/easier to install than the plastic mesh fencing.

[4630]

23 minutes ago, 62613 said:

May I ask? What is the fencing alongside the line for? The other thing seems to me to be; as the track occupancy and layout problems at Huddersfield aren't going to be resolved just yet, might they not actually extend the service to Marsden?

 

Thanks to @iands for providing the answer about the fencing.

 

The track layout and platform occupancy issue at Huddersfield that I was referring to only relates to the timings of these Azuma 5Q60-5Q63 test trains.

 

The daily LNER service, once launched, is booked to occupy  platform 4a and b at Huddersfield and is an early morning departure and a mid-evening return.  As such it's timed to avoid the other TransPennine Express services that occupy platform 4 and b throughout the main part of the day.  Consequently the Azuma won't need to run to Marsden.

 

I very much doubt there is the business potential to justify extending the service to Marsden.

Edited August 26, 2020 by 4630

[62613]

1 hour ago, iands said:

The fencing is a temporary arrangement to keep works staff a safe distance from a line open to traffic. Allows normal running of trains and is a safer method than using lookouts, and is quicker/easier to install than the plastic mesh fencing.

 

I was more wondering what the work could be.

 

[iands]

22 minutes ago, 62613 said:

 

I was more wondering what the work could be.

 

Could be absolutely anything; drainage work, boundary fencing works, cable/SCT works, vegetation clearance works .... to give just a few examples. Admittedly, not much seems to be happening in the above photo, but the fencing is typically installed well in advance of such works commencing.

[Zomboid]

That fencing could be simply to provide a separated walking/ driving route to a worksite some distance away in either direction from an access point some distance away in the other.

[4630]

Further testing of LNER 800202 along the Huddersfield line took place on 1st September 2020, with two return trips between Doncaster and Marsden.

 

Here is 800202 working 5Q62, 14.19 Doncaster to Marsden, at Ravensthorpe having been routed from Leeds via Normanton and Wakefield Kirkgate.

 

 The workings, 5Q60-63, are also in the schedule for 2nd September. 

[TravisM]

I saw a LNER Class 800/1 yesterday being diverted from Peterborough to Kings Cross via Ely because of OHLE issues.  I was wondering, when it gets back under the wires at Ely, can I raise it’s pantograph and carry on under the wires or will it have to wait until it reaches Hitchin or just keep going on diesel?

[TomScrut]

7 hours ago, jools1959 said:

I saw a LNER Class 800/1 yesterday being diverted from Peterborough to Kings Cross via Ely because of OHLE issues.  I was wondering, when it gets back under the wires at Ely, can I raise it’s pantograph and carry on under the wires or will it have to wait until it reaches Hitchin or just keep going on diesel?

 

Supposedly they can swap whilst moving but at least in TPEs case they do it at stations. I refer to TPE here as they do run diesel under the lines in places.

[Joseph_Pestell]

8 hours ago, jools1959 said:

I saw a LNER Class 800/1 yesterday being diverted from Peterborough to Kings Cross via Ely because of OHLE issues.  I was wondering, when it gets back under the wires at Ely, can I raise it’s pantograph and carry on under the wires or will it have to wait until it reaches Hitchin or just keep going on diesel?

 

The issue here would be the electrical capacity of the Cambridge - King's Lynn electrification project. I suspect that it would be inadequate for 800s if anything else was on the tracks at the same time. Most projects completed in the 1980s and 1990s were built to minimise cost rather than maximise capacity.

[Zomboid]

The feeder stations on the Cambridge - Kings Lynn line have recently been upgraded to support heavier normal loads, and ought to be able to supply some 800s. Though whether they're actually permitted to run on electric is another matter. There has been a lot of work needed to the ECML to enable them to run there, which may not have been done round that way. Since Peterborough to Ely means that is impossible to send 801s that way then there may not be much point making the Hitchin to Ely but 80x on electric compatible.

 

As for changeovers on the move, that happens all the time at 100mph or more near Newbury, Didcot and Chippenham.

[dhjgreen]

2 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

Supposedly they can swap whilst moving but at least in TPEs case they do it at stations. I refer to TPE here as they do run diesel under the lines in places.

As an exception to that  I saw one arriving at York from Leeds pan up.

[TomScrut]

2 minutes ago, dhjgreen said:

As an exception to that  I saw one arriving at York from Leeds pan up.

 

Up at Colton then? Or I wonder if they were stood outside the station and did it there?

[St. Simon]

3 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

Supposedly they can swap whilst moving but at least in TPEs case they do it at stations. I refer to TPE here as they do run diesel under the lines in places.

 

Yep, all Class 80x units can swap modes moving at linespeed, in the case of raising the pantograph, they can only do so in defined 'Safe Pan Raising Areas' (although I'm not sure the criteria for these is on the ECML).

 

I don't know whether TPE are using dynamic change-over as well as static or just static only.

 

Simon

[talisman56]

 

10 hours ago, Zomboid said:

 

 

As for changeovers on the move, that happens all the time at 100mph or more near Newbury, Didcot and Chippenham.

 

Every time I've been on a Padd-BTM service, the changeover at Chippenham has been at a speed significantly under 100mph, as the train is either still accelerating away from the station stop, or braking for same... but yes, it is an 'on the move' changeover.

 

As an aside, it seems that Hitachi still haven't got their minds around the 'First Class at the Paddington end' requirement as at least one BTM-Padd service I saw yesterday was the wrong way round (the 15:30 BTM-Padd, 800 312 IIRC, spotted at the station stop at Bath Spa) and one on layover in Plat 15 at BTM (couldn't see which one as any identifying marks were obscured either by the sister unit in Plat 13 or station structures).

 

It seems all the BTM-Padd are 9-car 800 units - at least off-peak - before lockdown, a couple of peak services were diagrammed 2x 5-car which split/joined at BTM, shedding one unit for Weston-super-Mare.

Edited September 4, 2020 by talisman56

[Afroal05]

On 04/09/2020 at 19:54, talisman56 said:

As an aside, it seems that Hitachi still haven't got their minds around the 'First Class at the Paddington end' requirement as at least one BTM-Padd service I saw yesterday was the wrong way round (the 15:30 BTM-Padd, 800 312 IIRC, spotted at the station stop at Bath Spa) and one on layover in Plat 15 at BTM (couldn't see which one as any identifying marks were obscured either by the sister unit in Plat 13 or station structures).

 

 

Since the start of September there is now a GW controller assigned to trying to bring order to the fleet(!!!) Reversing sets where possible (or getting empty stock moves planned to spin a set) and trying to prevent any short formed services (5 vice 9/10). Clearly this works some days better than others, I think there were 21 units in reverse about 10 days ago and there are only 2 today - allegedly. It seems somewhat of an endless task as units always seem to find a way to end up in reverse through defects or unplanned diversions!

I'm not sure Hitachi give two hoots as to which way round a unit is, so long as they provide their daily obligation I think that's it.

[TomScrut]

3 minutes ago, Afroal05 said:

I'm not sure Hitachi give two hoots as to which way round a unit is, so long as they provide their daily obligation I think that's it.

 

And is the direction of the set an obligation? Or is that a GWR responsibility other than when it leaves a Hitachi depot?

 

Do they get spun around when they go to the depot as per the TPE Mk5 sets, when they go to Longsight they end up reversing out and so the destination from the depot relative to where they came in from affects the end the loco is on.

Edited November 30, 2020 by TomScrut

[Afroal05]

Without knowing the whole legal text (of which there is rather a lot) between Hitachi and GWR my understanding is that it is not a Hitachi responsibility to provide a set in any particular orientation, they simply have to provide 80 units a day for service as per the diagrams. It is a GWR decision/desire to have them with first class at a particular end.

 

Depending on how they come on/off a particular depot they can be spun intentionally or otherwise:

5C85 2035 Westbury - Stoke Gifford is planned to run via Bristol East Jn and the Rhubarb curve in order to spin the units after they've worked the 1807 Pad - Frome and back which turns the sets when they come back from Westbury to Stoke Gifford during the week. I think there is a similar move in the morning too.

But generally no, they end up on depot in the same orientation they were running round the network.

 

A quick summary by depot/outstabling location with a view to turning units:

London North Pole - no scope to spin sets on/off depot (there are plans to get the Greenford loop signed off like it used to be for HSTs and the sleeper but at the moment this is stuck somewhere between signing the traction off and crew training.)

Stoke Gifford - By using Bristol East Jn/Rhubarb Curve sets can be spun, this can require two drivers due to the walking route at Bristol East. If a set is coming from Cheltenham then you can send it into Gloucester to turn (or conversely not if it's planned to).

Swansea Maliphant - sets can run via the Landore Loop before coming on to depot. An easy move here is diverting the ECS back from Carmarthen in the evening round the back of Landore to get it turned.

Laira - sets can be sent on via Laira East and the speedway curve to turn.

Long Rock - no scope to turn.

Worcester - sets can be turned with some shunting around Worcester, 5W99 0019 Worcester SH - Worcester Hereford Sdgs is one such planned move.

Oxford - if you can find an extra driver you can try and run a unit down to Didcot and round Foxhall curve - I think I only know of that being done once as an additional move. It has been done in service (it was on Saturday just gone) but puts a chunk of delay into a train.

Hereford - no scope, or at least nothing easy.

 

Clearly there are other locations where it is possible to turn sets, one was turned in service via Reading triangle at some point in the last month due to a wiper failure but the above are the most common and 'conventional' options.

[Indomitable026]

This months Modern Railways is reporting that LNER have launched the procurement process for at least another 10 bi-modes...

[TomScrut]

1 hour ago, Afroal05 said:

A quick summary by depot/outstabling location with a view to turning units:

 

Thanks that's a really interesting summary, I am not familiar with the GWR network so it is informative.

 

So my understanding is then that the turns occur during service either due to diversions (as you mentioned) or possibly the nature of some routes (are there any triangular services?) unlike the example I gave of the TPE 68/mk5s where it is that the lines leading to the depot are perpendicular to the route?

[caradoc]

18 hours ago, Afroal05 said:

Since the start of September there is now a GW controller assigned to trying to bring order to the fleet(!!!) Reversing sets where possible (or getting empty stock moves planned to spin a set) and trying to prevent any short formed services (5 vice 9/10).

 

It's good that GWR are getting on top of this, although I have to say that as long as the formation of each train is known and correctly advised to all calling points, the actual orientation is, for me anyway, less important (other than short-forming of course !). From my admittedly limited experience this year, accurate information is now usually provided. 

 

[TomScrut]

7 minutes ago, caradoc said:

 

It's good that GWR are getting on top of this, although I have to say that as long as the formation of each train is known and correctly advised to all calling points, the actual orientation is, for me anyway, less important (other than short-forming of course !). From my admittedly limited experience this year, accurate information is now usually provided. 

 

 

Yeah TPE do this on theirs, you need to look at the board to see what end which coach is.

[Afroal05]

On 30/11/2020 at 19:14, TomScrut said:

 

Thanks that's a really interesting summary, I am not familiar with the GWR network so it is informative.

 

So my understanding is then that the turns occur during service either due to diversions (as you mentioned) or possibly the nature of some routes (are there any triangular services?) unlike the example I gave of the TPE 68/mk5s where it is that the lines leading to the depot are perpendicular to the route?

 

There are not any triangular routes although there is one sequence of services one day into the next that can turn a unit. There is a South Cotswolds service in the evening via Swindon and Cheltenham (reversing at Gloucester) that is diagrammed to work a North Cotswolds service (via Oxford) the following morning. This will result in a set reversed and is the reason for the 5W99 shunt around Worcester around midnight.

During October there were diversions via the Southern region to Exeter, these also turn a although and if the unit worked back the other way at some point it did rectify it. In the case of planned diversions (through engineering) train planning do usually try and create solutions to the problem but if it is because of service disruption then you can quite quickly end up with several units the wrong way round.

 

On 01/12/2020 at 12:53, TomScrut said:

 

Yeah TPE do this on theirs, you need to look at the board to see what end which coach is.

 

However, the information on the board is only as good as the information it is provided with! There are several ways the information can be gathered but how effectively it is done is another matter. Whilst the Information Controller and the Fleet Controller's lists should be the same for units in reverse they often are not! That leads to trains being advertised the wrong way on the boards. For example Didcot Parkway have reported they had 6 services incorrectly shown on their boards yesterday.
 

[ess1uk]

On 19/01/2020 at 10:32, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

 

As the Bi-mode versions are both EMU and DEMU, would they not be EDEMU's ?

 

The all electric versions are EMU's

Except the 801's have an emergency gen-set , so they are secretly a little bit EDEMU on the side.

The 803's are pure EMU (no emergency gen-set).

The Class 395 Javelin EMU's are also part of the AT300 family, but not numbered in the 8** series.

 

 

Confused....you will be !

 

 

.

and now they are getting battery packs!!

https://www.railjournal.com/fleet/hitachi-and-eversholt-rail-to-trial-battery-equipped-class-802/?utm_source=&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=21873

 

[Zomboid]

Makes sense. Batteries are likely to be needed as part of the de-dieselisation of the railways.

[Dunsignalling]

6 hours ago, Zomboid said:

Makes sense. Batteries are likely to be needed as part of the de-dieselisation of the railways.

Hope they go further on the batteries than hybrid cars do, or they'll be a similar example of ecological window-dressing. 

 

The TV news report implied the battery traction would just be used to sweeten the atmosphere in stations.

 

John