andy stroud Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 (edited) ...and it worked brilliantly. more than they ever expected. So popular that passenger usage went through the roof and the 4 & 5 car trains were proved to be far too short. The exercise became a victim of its success. . I have always associated them with cronic overcrowding from the very beginning when they were first introduced. Edited January 9, 2015 by andy stroud Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indomitable026 Posted January 9, 2015 Author Share Posted January 9, 2015 I have always associated them with cronic overcrowding from the very beginning when they were first introduced. Yes, My point really was that in the south, regardless of contracts/ franchises etc, they have always found a way to increase fleet sizes where needed. This hasn't been the case for cross country apart from the 5 HSTs quoted -which is woefully short of what's required. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
surfsup Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 As regards the 170's released in Scotland I believe that they have already been snaffled by Southernb to strengthen the 171 worked services to places like Uckfield. Jamie This wont be from the 2017/2018 Batch though - Southern have leased the first round of 170s due to come off lease this April, with Southern taking around 5 from this initial batch, the rest will be subleased back to ScotRail for a longer period of time. This of course was all known about by the DfT who snaffled any chance for TPE to take any by not allowing TPE to plan for the longer term but that's a different story. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 2ManySpams Posted January 9, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 9, 2015 I do hope that nobody drops these things unloading them in the UK. Will they come in via Port of Tyne does anybody know? (BTW Reading - Didcot is supposed to be ready for IEP testing us by late 2015 according to one NR issued electrification programme - it might be achievable but it would need the electrification work to crack along a lot more rapidly then it has so far I reckon.) It's ok Mike the trainsets will come in the New style of clear protective packaging and a sturdy cardboard box. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 It's ok Mike the trainsets will come in the New style of clear protective packaging and a sturdy cardboard box. In that case they'll break a few bits off when they open them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indomitable026 Posted January 9, 2015 Author Share Posted January 9, 2015 In that case they'll break a few bits off when they open them. Definitely steps and break gear ..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indomitable026 Posted January 9, 2015 Author Share Posted January 9, 2015 Its a bit simplistic of me, but these trains look just like I think modern fast trains ought to look Good - that's lucky. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oakydoke Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 From my understanding the new units are coming in 9-car (long) and 5-car (short) formations. Why did they not make the long formation a multiple of the short formation, e.g. 5-car and 10-car units or 3-car and 9-car units? I'm assuming that 9 cars is the maximum length possible for various stations. If 2x5-car units can be used, then why not make the long units 10 cars? The original specification was for 5 and 10 car trains and that's what Hitachi provided with their winning bid. The 10 car trains were shortened to 9 cars long following the government revue into the programme, both to reduce costs and under the pretext that because of the recession, estimates of future passenger numbers would be lower at the time of the introduction of the trains. Also, as mentioned, the capacity of a 9 car train won't be much different from a 2x5 car combination. The programme allows for the trains to be extended in due course, up to 12 cars long. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenw Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 On the future of the present EC fleet, it was intended when IEP was ordered that the entire fleet would be replaced. Since the announcement of the new Virgin EC franchise though, there's been speculation that 6 sets are to be retained for the planned extra services, though not yet of which type. As to the general future of the MkIVs, of the two obvious choices for cascading them to (MML and GEML) it was notable how quick they were in saying No Thanks! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenw Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 The programme allows for the trains to be extended in due course, up to 12 cars long. Which stations on the ECML would take 12 car trains??? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oakydoke Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Which stations on the ECML would take 12 car trains??? The requirement to have the capability of being extended to 12 cars, is future proofing. If or when the trains are extended (to 10, 11 or even 12 cars long), platform lengths and other infrastructure issues will have to be dealt with at the time. Just as is happening currently in preparation for the initial introduction of the Class 800/801's. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted January 10, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 10, 2015 Which stations on the ECML would take 12 car trains??? You could always have selective door opening for those stations that you can't fit the train fully in. This happens every day for services on the GW mainline. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenw Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 Few, if any EC stations would take that length train, or have space to be extended to. Yes, I know these sets will have selective door opening, that doesnt help at Kings X when it's blocking the entire station throat Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffP Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 Which stations on the ECML would take 12 car trains??? They almost ALL used to. Class 47 and 13/14, even 15 coaches was the norm. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jamie92208 Posted January 10, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 10, 2015 They almost ALL used to. Class 47 and 13/14, even 15 coaches was the norm. With the IEP they will have to be careful as they are IIRC 26m coaches whereas most 12 coach trains would be formed of 64' stock. I seem to remember seeing somewhere that the extra length means quite a lot more seats on the IEP as the vestibule's still only take up the same space. Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 They almost ALL used to. Class 47 and 13/14, even 15 coaches was the norm. Though the coaches were a bit shorter (64'6") vice 75' (Mk 3/4) and now 85' (IEP).. A 15 coach Mk1/2 formation would be 967' long; the equivalent number of carriages in Mk3 or 4 stock would be 1125' and IEP stock would be 1275' long. As you can see, the difference in train lengths is considerable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indomitable026 Posted January 10, 2015 Author Share Posted January 10, 2015 Though the coaches were a bit shorter (64'6") vice 75' (Mk 3/4) and now 85' (IEP).. A 15 coach Mk1/2 formation would be 967' long; the equivalent number of carriages in Mk3 or 4 stock would be 1125' and IEP stock would be 1275' long. As you can see, the difference in train lengths is considerable. Well put! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 I read somewhere there's a remodelling of Kings Cross somewhere on the horizon, that would use the third bore of the tunnel and presuambly gives longer platforms. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indomitable026 Posted January 10, 2015 Author Share Posted January 10, 2015 I read somewhere there's a remodelling of Kings Cross somewhere on the horizon, that would use the third bore of the tunnel and presuambly gives longer platforms. Next Christmas. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 (edited) Actually they have added 5 HST sets to the fleet since the Princess issue - and whilst I think personally they could use those a bit more, if you get a day predicted as being busy then they are likely to be out allowing key Voyager services to be formed of 8 or 9 cars. Xc is losing Arriva a lot of money (did they get the bid a bit wrong?) so they are not really interested in using the HSTs more because they pay to use them by the hour, dont use them and they dont pay, use them and increase the losses! Edited January 10, 2015 by royaloak Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 Yes, My point really was that in the south, regardless of contracts/ franchises etc, they have always found a way to increase fleet sizes where needed. This hasn't been the case for cross country apart from the 5 HSTs quoted -which is woefully short of what's required. yeah, up to a few years ago they used to put the prices up to suppress demand, now of course they are not allowed to do that. When the new trains (Desiros etc) were ordered it wasnt quite one unit for one unit so there was a net reduction in available stock which led to problems and it is only very recently there have been follow on orders for stock to ease the problems (actually the new stock hasnt made much difference because the passenger numbers keep increasing despite the railways apparently being too expensive), between the two we just left people behind at the stations just like they do in other parts of the Country, the only advantage down South East is that there is normally another (full) train a few minutes later. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 My point really was that in the south, regardless of contracts/ franchises etc, they have always found a way to increase fleet sizes where needed. This hasn't been the case for cross country apart from the 5 HSTs quoted -which is woefully short of what's required. Not just in the south... The HST's aren't the only increase in capacity though, they have also cut back services to a core network (saving units) and added more seats. Negative things maybe, but if usable seating space is the issue then advantages - and both Virgin and AXC have (it would seem) tried to extend the Voyagers, Virgin was told no, and more recently under Arriva the 220s would have seen an electric vehicle added, but that project's been dropped as well... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ess1uk Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Bi mode voyagers and meridians would have been a sensible option in the short term? BUT would the cost be too much? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy stroud Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 The 4 and 5 car voyagers would be good for routes such as the hourly Cardiff to Portsmouth service which is currently three coaches and heavily overcrowded. Used to be five coaches back in the mid 80s and roughly hourly even then. Ideal for cascaded voyagers. In the meantime, just needs something more suitable for the routes they are doing now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenw Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Sorry, disagree there..... " In the meantime, just needs something more suitable for the routes they are doing now." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now