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Prussian Blue Paint


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I am building a 7 mm ex-SDJR coach and need to spray it Prussian Blue. I know the exact tint/hue is much discussed owing to the ageing process and the various additives that could have been mixed but I wonder if there was a car aerosol paint that was a good match for the supposed colour.

Thanks,

Richard.

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I read somewhere once that Prussian Blue was essentially the same colour as Midnight Blue, although whether or not that is true I can not say. However I note that there are Midnight Blue aerosols listed for various car manufacturers, so you may be able to find a reasonable alternative - I suppose it will depend upon how much of a purist you want to be.

Edited by RailWest
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The Bachman 7F in Prussian Blue is the correct colour for a model. Bachman matched to the paint the SDRT have used on First Class Coach No: 4 and their 0-4-0 Peckett 1788. This Prussian Blue was supplied by T&R Williamson railway paint manufacturers who supplied the S&DJR and other companies who built loco's and coaches for them with the original paint from the 1880's to the 1920's and they had details in their archive. They found it was an exact match to original paint from S&DJR coach 98 last painted in 1928. They were even able to check the correct undercoat colour and supply the same colour. The undercoat is very important and it is a mid blue colour two coats and then two top coats and then  2 coats of varnish. The undercoat is very important as a slightly darker undercoat produces a different final colour, much darker. Prussian Blue looks black in dull lighting conditions but in the sun it is the most beautiful deep dark blue, in evening sunlight you even see the crimson that is used in it's mixing coming through. Find a match for the 7F or the Bachman S&DJR Jinty in blue and you are there.

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This site lists the Rover version of Midnight Blue as suitable. Must try it some day...

 

Nick

The site certainly has lots of useful data but I'm a bit suspicious of some of their colour suggestions.  Surely, Ford Laurel Green can't be right for both GWR Brunswick Green and SR Malachite?!!

 

Mike

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Mike, that's a mistake isn't it?

 

SR Malachite is, I believe, approximated by Rover Java Green. Another possible match for GWR/BR Green is Rover Brooklands Green.

 

See: http://gardenrails.myfreeforum.org/archive/car-paint-aerosol-equivalents-for-railway-colours__o_t__t_3605.html.  

 

We mustn't forget, of course, that in many cases (Crimson Lake, Prussian Blue), the final colour is greatly dependent on the colour of the undercoat.

 

BW

 

Richard.

 

Edit. Just found this from RMweb (from Kiwionrails)

 

QUOTE 

BR Loco Green :- Rover Brooklands Green - Ford Laurel Green (poor match)
BR Diesel Light Green Band :- Ford Highland Green
BR Coach Carmine :- Ford Rosso Red - Vauxhall Carmine Red (both too "fire engine")
BR Coach Cream :- Vauxhall Gazelle Beige - Talbot Jonquil
BR Coach Cream (well worn) :- Peugeot Antelope Beige (too dark)
BR Blood/Custard (approx colours) :- Ford Venetian Red - Talbot Jonquil
BR Loco / Coach Maroon :- Rover Damask Red - Vauxhall Burgundy Red - Ford Burgundy Red - Triumph Damson
BR Diesel Blue :- VW Pargas Blue - Ford Fjord Blue (Fjord blue is a very light blue like LNER blue!)
BR Deltic Blue :- Lada Adriatic Blue
BR Steam Loco Blue :- Peugeot Royal Blue
BR Loco Yellow Warning Panel :- Vauxhall Mustard Yellow (too orange)
BR EMU Green :- Jaguar British Racing Green
BR Wagon Grey :- VW Eisgrauen KJ94
BR Wagon Bauxite :- Alfa Romeo Bruno DE37
CR Steam Loco :- Peugeot Royal Blue
CR Dark Blue :- Rover Midnight Blue
GNR (I) (Ireland) :- Ford Wedgwood Blue
GWR Brunswick Green :- Peugeot Conifer (too dark)
GWR/BR Green :- Leyland Brooklands Green - Land Rover Deep Bronze Green - Ford Laurel Green
GWR Cream :- Ford Sahara Beige (too yellow) - Ford Sierra Beige (too white)
GWR Brown (Chocolate) :- Triumph Maple - Talbot Peugeot Cafe Noir (very maroon)- Rover Russet Brown (way too light)
LNER Garter Blue :- VW Pargas Blue Ford Fjord Blue
LMS Coronation Blue :- Rover Pageant mid-blue
LBSC Umber :- Rover Mexican Brown
LBSCR Stroudley Ochre :- BMC Tan
LBSCR Umber :- Vauxhall Brazil Brown
LMS/Midland Crimson Lake :- Ford Damask Red - Rover Damask Red
LMS Coronation Blue :- Rover Pageant Mid-Blue - Peugeot Royal Blue (Not sure here but there is a huge difference between these two)
LNWR Coach Plum Lower Panels :- Daewoo Dark Red
LNWR Coach Bluey-White Upper Panels :- Daewoo Casablanca White
LYR Coach Upper Panels :- Plastikote Nut Brown (Not Halfords – try B&Q?)
LYR Coach Plum Lower Panels :- Daewoo Dark Red
MR/LMS/BR Red :- Rover Damask Red
MR Red :- Rover Damask Red - Vauxhall Burgundy Red - Ford Burgundy Red - Triumph Damson
NSR Maroon :- Vauxhall Gambia Red
NSR Madder Lake :- Ford Lacquer Red
NER Coach Red :- Vauxhall Gambia Red
Stanier Coronation Blue :- Peugeot Royal Blue
SR Malachite Green Green :- Ford Laurel Green (never!) - Daihatsu Tropical Green
SR Dark Olive Green :- Land Rover Coniston Green
SR EMU Green :- Jaguar British Racing Green
SDJR Blue :- Rover Midnight Blue
Edited by RTJ
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Midnight Blue is veryd ark on a model - I have found Ford Ontario Blue much the best so far, and at a  recent Exhibition some S&D 'experts' agreed.

 

Bearing in mind what has been said above, what undercoat did you use with these paints?

 

Nick

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Nick,

 

 I think Red Oxide is the preferred undercoat for LMS Crimson Lake (aka Rover Damask Red).

 

I have no idea for the midnight blue, but seek to recall it was a dark colour that was preferred.

 

Rich.

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Sorry, Rich, my question was specifically in response to Edward's comment that Midmight Blue was very dark on a model. Hence what colour undercoat did he use with this (and with the Ontario Blue) as this might well affect the final colour, particularly as Kilmersden had mentioned that the SDRT had used a medium blue undercoat on their full-sized specimens.

 

Nick

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  • 5 years later...
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Please excuse me for reviving an old topic but that seems a more efficient approach than starting a new one. There are several topics on this subject but I've found this one to be the most useful for my purposes. I'm building the 4 mm/ft scale Roxey kit for a 20 ft milk van,t o be in the condition it was in soon after its conversion from a luggage van, say c. 1902:

 

316796005_SDJRmilkvanWIP3.JPG.67e534a5178604d5704aeeba2fa20651.JPG

 

I'm proposing to give it an undercoat of Halfords red primer followed by their Rover Midnight Blue.

 

Let me know if you think I am making an Unwise Choice, or Could Do Better!

Edited by Compound2632
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I gather that the shade that the S&DJR used varied from time to time and it could be very dark indeed. While I appreciate that this is very self referential, my car, a Honda Jazz, is painted in what Honda call 'Deep Sapphire Blue' and it seems to be much the same colour that the 7F was painted once. Having said that 'Deep Sapphire Blue' and 'Midnight Blue' might be the same colour!

Cheers

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1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

Please excuse me for reviving an old topic but that seems a more efficient approach than starting a new one. There are several topics on this subject but I've found this one to be the most useful for my purposes. I'm building the 4 mm/ft scale Roxey kit for a 20 ft milk van,t o be in the condition it was in soon after its conversion from a luggage van, say c. 1902:

 

316796005_SDJRmilkvanWIP3.JPG.67e534a5178604d5704aeeba2fa20651.JPG

 

I'm proposing to give it an undercoat of Halfords red primer followed by their Rover Midnight Blue.

 

Let me know if you think I am making an Unwise Choice, or Could Do Better!

I don't understand why you intend to use a red primer (which I use for black locos as it helps to give that slightly rusty tinge that the real locos tended to have), I would always use a grey primer under a colour like Midnight Blue. Incidentally, colour variations in S&DJR blue may well have been largely the result of weathering as historically blue probably weathered faster than almost any other rich colour - remember how quickly the BR 1966 blue used to go "off" even after they switched from applying it matt to applying it gloss.

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Just now, bécasse said:

I don't understand why you intend to use a red primer

 

I read in one of the topics on this subject that a red undercoat would impart a warmer, more purplish hue to the top coat, which, it was said, would be in accordance with the prototype.

 

On the other hand, the paint specification given by Garner states: "By 1890 ... three coats of lead colour [which I interpret as a grey based on white lead], one of dark blue (Prussian Blue with a little white lead mixed in), two coats of Ultramarine Blue, and four coats of body varnish." It is unclear if this is a specification for locomotives (mostly metal surfaces), carriages (mostly wood), or both.

 

By the late 19th century, ultramaine pigment was produced by a synthetic process, rather than derived from lapis lazuli. I note that it is unstable in the presence of acids, so a typical 19th-century urban atmosphere will not have been good for it. Rural Dorset might be kinder to it but not Combe Down tunnel!

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1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I read in one of the topics on this subject that a red undercoat would impart a warmer, more purplish hue to the top coat, which, it was said, would be in accordance with the prototype.

 

 

Yes, I saw that too and puzzled over it somewhat. I am sure that grey is more appropriate.

 

Ultramarine pigment seems to have been very stable when fired, notably on vitreous enamel signs, but not otherwise which is why blue was rarely used for paintwork prior to modern times (when paint technology changed greatly, although, as the BR experience proved, blues generally remain "difficult").

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1 hour ago, bécasse said:

Yes, I saw that too and puzzled over it somewhat. I am sure that grey is more appropriate.

 

Once I've got the midnight blue* I'll try an experiment with the two undercoats.

 

*Not available at my nearest Halfords, unfortunately, though I do need to get a new inner tube for No. 1 Son's bike - that's an essential purchase. But I'm waiting for my replacement driver's side mirror glass - which Halfords turned out not to have in the right size (saga...) - before venturing 10 miles down the M4.

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  • 2 weeks later...
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A few years ago I gave a talk to the Bristol HMRS group about my Bath project and was asked for my views on S&D blue.

 

Essentially, blue is not the most stable of colours. In the presence of sulphur it went almost black. In strong sunlight it tended to fade - remember BR blue!

 

My best guess is that those locos that spent most of their time on the northern half of the line, particularly the tunnels south of Bath, would have been very dark. Those that spent most of their time on the branch would have been lighter. Add in to the equation time since the last repaint (5-7 years?) and we have a multitude of shades.

 

I use a cellulose Rover Midnight blue which I get from a local car paint firm over a grey undercoat which I think gives a very attractive finish and for me, looks right. Is it right, who knows!

 

Jerry

 

ps. for those that don't already know, I model in 2mm scale

 

20191010_204959.jpg.10b5431d51864811a6fbbe69a818c40b.jpg

 

 

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The Somerset Levels would have been significant producers of hydrogen sulphide (in addition to any gas works) so the resultant darkening effect may well have affected the Prussian Blue paintwork of locos and carriages allocated elsewhere than the Bath end of the line. The oily rags used to clean steam locomotives may well have produced a subtle tinting of the colour too, certainly the Southern Railway's white lining quickly turned a pale beige colour for the same reason - contemporary reports having been validated by experience with working preserved locos.

 

Jerry's comment serves as a useful reminder that, although one thinks most of hydrogen sulphide darkening the white-leaded canvas of carriage and van roofs, it would have had an affect on coloured paint too - as would brake-block dust (although that would have been more important on Westinghouse-braked lines than vacuum-braked ones like the S&DJR).

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2 minutes ago, bécasse said:

as would brake-block dust (although that would have been more important on Westinghouse-braked lines than vacuum-braked ones like the S&DJR).

 

Because air brakes are capable of applying greater force, presumably?

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Ford Atlantic Blue has been my choice over the years (which I'm not saying is right or wrong.) Note the difference between the two 3mm scale 3Fs, both undercoated with Halford's grey, both sprayed with Halford's Ford Atlantic Blue, one sprayed with a matt varnish, the other with a satin varnish giving two very different final colours.

I do have a tin of Halfords Peugeot Midnight Blue to try at some point....just for a bit more variation !

55391ED2-7699-48EC-AC62-6614836A1694.jpeg

Edited by 03060
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I would have liked to have seen how different the 3F at Butterley looked after it's initial painting in Prussian Blue and then again just before it was withdrawn for overhaul and dismantled.....which was the state I found it in when I finally got myself down there to see it. It would also have been interesting to see how it looked in different lighting conditions and from different distances. I'll have to check out a few photos on the net.

Edited by 03060
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