New Hornby ex LMS Suburban Coaches

[Combe Martin]

Does anyone know if the new Hornby Ex LMS suburban coaches are of a type that were used on the S&D (mostly Highbridge services) in BR days ?  

[bike2steam]

Look here;-

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/46069-coaching-stock-on-the-sd/

[Guest Jack Benson]

Hi,

 

At the risk of upsetting the Hornby applecart, the roofs on the Hornby coaches differ from the non-corridor stock used on the SDJR. This image from Phil Sutter clearly shows long rainstrips, moreover a well known image of similar coaches at BGP have the same feature.

 

 

The much cheaper Dapol exLMS non-corridor coaches have such roofs with long rainstrips,, whether an expensive roof swap can be done is unknown. 

 

Cheers

 

Jack 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dunsignalling]

On ‎04‎/‎07‎/‎2019 at 21:52, Jack Benson said:

Hi,

 

At the risk of upsetting the Hornby applecart, the roofs on the Hornby coaches differ from the non-corridor stock used on the SDJR. This image from Phil Sutter clearly shows long rainstrips, moreover a well known image of similar coaches at BGP have the same feature.

 

 

The much cheaper Dapol exLMS non-corridor coaches have such roofs with long rainstrips,, whether an expensive roof swap can be done is unknown. 

 

Cheers

 

Jack 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Trouble is, the Dapol/old Airfix coaches are of a type that didn't work on the S&D at all. They also normally ran in sets of at least three, with a brake at either end.  EDIT: statement proven incorrect by the OP's photo and subsequent posts.

 

Whilst they do have the "right" rainstrips, they have toilet compartments, too, so most of the roof vents will be in the wrong places (as well as being horrible).

 

All the recent Hornby coaches I've had apart have the roof and sides moulded as a single unit so a transplant is likely to be more difficult to carry off well than building a kit or adding brass sides to the older coaches.

 

A much easier way out is just to scrape/file/sand off the offending items and add the correct ones from appropriately sized microstrip. 

 

Well down my "to do" list, though so I'll put up with mine as they are for now.  

 

John

Edited July 6, 2019 by Dunsignalling
Correction

[Guest Jack Benson]

5 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Trouble is, the Dapol/old Airfix coaches are of a type that didn't work on the S&D at all. They also normally ran in sets of at least three, with a brake at either end.

 

Whilst they do have the "right" rainstrips, they have toilet compartments, too, so most of the roof vents will be in the wrong places (as well as being horrible).

 

All the recent Hornby coaches I've had apart have the roof and sides moulded as a single unit so a transplant is likely to be more difficult to carry off well than building a kit or adding brass sides to the older coaches.

 

A much easier way out is just to scrape/file/sand off the offending items and add the correct ones from appropriately sized of microstrip. 

 

Well down my "to do" list, though so I'll put up with mine as they are for now.  

 

John

John,

 

I do not think that I suggested the use of the Dapol coaches, unless you have misread my comments. Instead, i merely hightlighted the differences in rainstrips and I did qualify my comment about a roof swap by stating that it was 'unknown' 

 

Thanks 

 

Jack

[Dunsignalling]

On ‎04‎/‎07‎/‎2019 at 22:23, Jack Benson said:

John,

 

I do not think that I suggested the use of the Dapol coaches, unless you have misread my comments. Instead, i merely hightlighted the differences in rainstrips and I did qualify my comment about a roof swap by stating that it was 'unknown' 

 

Thanks 

 

Jack

Confession time.

 

A couple of my "improved" Airfix coaches used to do duty as a local set on TMRG's Bath Green Park from time to time and nobody picked me up on it. EDIT: Not surprising as it turns out not to have been wrong.

 

That said, there is also published photographic evidence of non-lavatory stock being used in the area.

 

I agree that the rain-strips are pretty prominent and mine will get done one day, but I really think a roof swap would fall into the category of "if I wanted to go there, I wouldn't start from here".

 

Regards

 

John

Edited July 6, 2019 by Dunsignalling
Additions in bold italics

[Compound2632]

The Hornby LMS suburban carriages are Period 3 designs (built from 1933 onwards), with steel panel roofs with transverse "ribs" of strips covering the joints, in lieu of the earlier canvas-covered wooden roofs with long rainstrips. So the carriages in this photo are pre-1933, either Period 1 (wood panelling with raised beading) or Period 2 (a move towards flush-sided steel panelling). However, some Period 1 or 2 carriages were rebuilt with Period 3-style steel panelled sides, while retaining their original roofing style. Some corridor brake composites were treated thus but I doubt any non-corrider carriages got this treatment, though there would in post-war days be some patch replacement of wood paneling with steel.

 

Pace Dunsignalling, I think your first carriage is indeed a Period 2 lavatory composite to D1736, the prototype of the Airfix/Dapol model. Only 25 of these were built* (full-size; many tens of thousands at 4 mm/ft!). The brake third is quite likely to be a D1703 Period 1 vehicle, compare the recent discussed on another thread. 

 

*Carthago delenda est.

[Guest Jack Benson]

7 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Confession time.

 

A couple of my "improved" Airfix coaches used to do duty as a local set on TMRG's Bath Green Park from time to time and nobody picked me up on it.

 

I agree that the rain-strips are pretty prominent and mine will get done one day, but I really think a roof swap would fall into the category of "if I wanted to go there, I wouldn't start from here".

 

Regards

 

John

Hi,

 

Did Hornby get it 'wrong' or merely a variation of the prototype? It seems odd that the few inages of exLMS non corridor coaches on the SDJR show those with full length rainstrips rather than those portrayed by Hornby. What other detauls differences need to be addressed?

 

Cheers

 

Jack

 

 

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, Jack Benson said:

Did Hornby get it 'wrong' or merely a variation of the prototype? It seems odd that the few inages of exLMS non corridor coaches on the SDJR show those with full length rainstrips rather than those portrayed by Hornby.

 

 

 

The Hornby models are of Period 3 carriages, built from 1933 onwards; the ex-LMS carriages used on the S&DJR in the 1950s seem all to have been earlier vehicles, Period 1 & 2 designs from before 1933. If you want to get to grips with the history of The LMS Coach I can recommend the book of that title by Essery and Jenkinson - copies of the single volume Ian Allan edition are readily available for under £20, less tha half the price of a new carriage these days.

 

Edited July 5, 2019 by Compound2632

[Wheatley]

1 hour ago, Jack Benson said:

Hi,

 

Did Hornby get it 'wrong' or merely a variation of the prototype? It seems odd that the few inages of exLMS non corridor coaches on the SDJR show those with full length rainstrips rather than those portrayed by Hornby. What other detauls differences need to be addressed?

 

Cheers

 

Jack

 

 

In short: 

Period 1 (1923 - 1928ish) - raised pannelling, canvas roof with long rainstrips. Matchboard ends. No non-corridor RTR  but Bachmann do/did a BTK  and CK from old Mainline mouldings.

 

Period 2 (1928-1933) - flush sided sometimes with slightly raised bollection mouldings  around windows, roofs as P1. Flush ends. Airfix / Dapol did a lav  composite and brake third but most of the real ones were non lav as already stated. No corridor types RTR unless you want a 12 wheel restaurant car (Hornby). 

 

Period 3 (1935 onwards)-

Flush sided, slightly rounder corners to windows.  No bollection mouldings. Flush ends. Steel roofs with transverse ribs. Available from Hornby although the brake 3rd is an early P3 type with one set of guard's van doors, most had 2 sets of double doors. Corridor types also available from Dapol, Hornby and Bachmann (Bachmann's being the later 'porthole' stock). 

 

The LMS  was not fussy about running matching sets of all P1 or all P3  - the same basic types were built in all 3 eras with a few oddities - if it had the right number of seats it was in. If you never see P3 coaches on the SDJR then I suspect it's because none were allocated. 

Edited July 5, 2019 by Wheatley

[Dunsignalling]

9 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

The Hornby LMS suburban carriages are Period 3 designs (built from 1933 onwards), with steel panel roofs with transverse "ribs" of strips covering the joints, in lieu of the earlier canvas-covered wooden roofs with long rainstrips. So the carriages in this photo are pre-1933, either Period 1 (wood panelling with raised beading) or Period 2 (a move towards flush-sided steel panelling). However, some Period 1 or 2 carriages were rebuilt with Period 3-style steel panelled sides, while retaining their original roofing style. Some corridor brake composites were treated thus but I doubt any non-corrider carriages got this treatment, though there would in post-war days be some patch replacement of wood paneling with steel.

 

Pace Dunsignalling, I think your first carriage is indeed a Period 2 lavatory composite to D1736, the prototype of the Airfix/Dapol model. Only 25 of these were built* (full-size; many tens of thousands at 4 mm/ft!). The brake third is quite likely to be a D1703 Period 1 vehicle, compare the recent discussed on another thread. 

 

*Carthago delenda est.

The plot thickens. I'm fully on board re the Period 1 brake third and there's a station shot in one of Ivo Peters' books showing a set formed of a P1 brake and a P2 composite (though not a lavatory composite). 

 

Unless it's a trick of the light, I agree that the composite in the OP does look as if it has have a lavatory section so I'll be hanging on to my detailed Airfix set with a view to panelling up the brake with Comet sides and ends. Once I have, Murphy's Law will kick in and someone will, no doubt, come up with a photo showing a P3 pair in use....

 

For now, the extremely nice Hornby P3 coaches make very acceptable place-holders.

 

John

 

EDIT: I've managed to save/enlarge the above photo and the coach in question is clearly a lavatory composite.

 

 

Edited July 5, 2019 by Dunsignalling
Unexpectedly clear photo!

[Guest Jack Benson]

Hi,

 

This might help set the scene - BGP by Ron Toop - Interesting coaches in the centre road

 

Not sure of the date, maybe 02/02/56 when 30706 (71B) deputised for a failed loco*. I believe that another image exists of 30706 about to depart from BGP

 

 

*Mendips Enginemen - Peter Smith - OPC

 

Cheers

 

Jack

 

[johnofwessex]

Didnt Swindon build some LMS designs for use on the S&D in the 1950's?

[TheSignalEngineer]

9 hours ago, Jack Benson said:

Hi,

 

This might help set the scene - BGP by Ron Toop - Interesting coaches in the centre road

 

Not sure of the date, maybe 02/02/56 when 30706 (71B) deputised for a failed loco*. I believe that another image exists of 30706 about to depart from BGP

 

 

*Mendips Enginemen - Peter Smith - OPC

 

Cheers

 

Jack

 

First is a Lav Brake, second is a Lav Composite by the look of it.

[chrisf]

I wonder if Johnofwessex had in mind the 80 non-corridor composites, M16797-16876W built at Swindon to GWR diagram E156  for use on the London Midland region?  Reports of sightings are few but I reclal seeing at least one in a WR London suburban set when I was a boy.

 

Chris

[Compound2632]

9 hours ago, Jack Benson said:

Hi,

 

This might help set the scene - BGP by Ron Toop - Interesting coaches in the centre road

 

Not sure of the date, maybe 02/02/56 when 30706 (71B) deputised for a failed loco*. I believe that another image exists of 30706 about to depart from BGP

 

 

*Mendips Enginemen - Peter Smith - OPC

 

Cheers

 

Jack

 

 

T?hey do indeed appear to be a D1737 lavatory brake third and D1736 lavatory composite - the flush sided Period 2 carriages of which there were only 25 each, built in 1930, the composites at Wolverton and the brake thirds at Newton Heath, a division of labour that followed the pattern set by the preceding Period 1 carriages of D1685 and D1686. These  Period 2 carriages are the prototypes of the Airfix/Dapol models. 

 

It's highly suggestive that they appear to be coupled to what I think is a set of Maunsell carriages (I'm not very well up on Southern carriages) but it's not absolute proof that they saw service on the S&DJR; they could beon Bristol - Bath local workings.

 

22 minutes ago, johnofwessex said:

Didn't Swindon build some LMS designs for use on the S&D in the 1950's?

 

I believe the Stockton and Darlington was always worked by LNER and constituent carriages. I'd be surprised if any new carriage was ever supplied for S&DJR local use by the LMS or LMR - all the carriages we've been looking at are over 25 years old by the time they were photographed. Up to the division of stock in 1930, as far as I'm aware S&DJR local trains were worked by the Highbridge-built 46ft bogie non-corridor carriages, dating from 1900-1914; I presume they continued in use for some years after 1930?

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

43 minutes ago, chrisf said:

I wonder if Johnofwessex had in mind the 80 non-corridor composites, M16797-16876W built at Swindon to GWR diagram E156  for use on the London Midland region?  Reports of sightings are few but I reclal seeing at least one in a WR London suburban set when I was a boy.

 

Chris

There,s a picture of one at Acocks Green on a Snow Hill -Leamington train in 1961.

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrag1859.htm

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

The Lavatory stock was classed as Inter-District, which seems to have been those services which went from say Stoke to Birmingham or Manchester. The Airfix version was the last 25 each of CL and BTL built after grouping. a few hundred had already been built in the Period 1 panelled style including 20 FL with two lavatories..

The LMS/LMR attitude to suburban stock seems to be very much pick'n'mix. The lavatory stock seems to have been mainly intended to run as CL/BTL, BTL/CL/BTL or BTL/2CL/BTL, although they did turn up in very mixed formations.

 

This train  

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrbns_br1994.htm 

at Birmingham New Street has come from Rugeley via Walsall and Soho. Although the lamp post and some plating over of panels makes full identifcation difficult my guess is that it is Period 1 BTL/Period 1 C/Period 2 BTL.

 

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

Essery and Jenkinson express doubt that these carriages were formed into strict sets although the Period 1 lavatory brake thirds do outnumber the Period 1 lavatory composites by nearly two to one. They were probably used indiscriminately with late pre-Grouping carriages, especially LNWR and Midland. By the 50s, the Inter-District services would be operated with gangwayed side-corridor carriages, providing all passengers with access to a lavatory, releasing these carriages for less prestigious services such as that Rugeley local, or even consigned to such backwaters as the S&DJR.

[Dunsignalling]

14 hours ago, Jack Benson said:

Hi,

 

This might help set the scene - BGP by Ron Toop - Interesting coaches in the centre road

 

Not sure of the date, maybe 02/02/56 when 30706 (71B) deputised for a failed loco*. I believe that another image exists of 30706 about to depart from BGP

 

 

*Mendips Enginemen - Peter Smith - OPC

 

Cheers

 

Jack

 

Yep. The spacing of the door hinges is a dead giveaway.

 

Looks like my got-at Airfix ones just got reprieved and will be treated to new bogies after all.

 

John 

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, Dunsignalling said:

Looks like my got-at Airfix ones just got reprieved and will be treated to new bogies after all.

 

 

Is there that much wrong with the Airfix / Dapol bogies?

[jimwal]

I think the Airfix bogies aren't bad and they are made of nylon type plastic so don't wear. To cure the slop in the pivots I remove the bogies and glue the split pin in from the top with the legs set across the width of the coach.

The countersink in the top of the underframe needs opening out to allow the pin head to go in far enough. When glue has set clip the bogies back on.

[TheSignalEngineer]

2 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Yep. The spacing of the door hinges is a dead giveaway.

 

Looks like my got-at Airfix ones just got reprieved and will be treated to new bogies after all.

 

John 

Looking at some old 1950s Carriage Working Notices on Robert Carroll's site the Bristol 2 coach local sets were mainly marshalled BT/C. One working included trips  Bath - Binegar and Bath - Templecombe. 

There was also a 3 coach set working between Bristol and Gloucester marshalled BT/CL/BT.

 

 

[Compound2632]

7 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Looking at some old 1950s Carriage Working Notices on Robert Carroll's site the Bristol 2 coach local sets were mainly marshalled BT/C. One working included trips  Bath - Binegar and Bath - Templecombe. 

There was also a 3 coach set working between Bristol and Gloucester marshalled BT/CL/BT.

 

 

 

I'm familiar with the Midland's carriage marshalling books (as held by the Midland Railway Study Centre) but not with later documents - from the Midland books, one can usually workout the type of carriage, but where different diagrams have the same seating and accommodation (lavatories, luggage, brake...) one can't distinguish them. So I imagine that from the 1950s notices you can't distinguish different diagrams of, say, LMS non-corridor lavatory composites, because for operational purposes they were identical. 

 

But I would have thought you could distinguish say BT from BTL? So is that 3-coach Bristol & Gloucester set definitely BT/CL/BT, i.e non-lavatory brake thirds? In which case the Bristol two coach sets are also non-lavatory, i.e. not the pair of vehicles seen in the Green Park photo, which are BTL/CL?

[Dunsignalling]

8 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Is there that much wrong with the Airfix / Dapol bogies?

Not in the way they run, but I find them a bit "scrawny" in appearance compared to their equivalents from Hornby and Bachmann.

 

I've fitted the latter under a few Lima 42' GUVs over the years and my Airfix coaches have been on the "to-do" list along with the usual Comet Models extra underframe detail parts, which are all now in place.

 

Incidentally, I notice the underframe on the Airfix BTL is on the opposite way round to the coach in the BGP photo. With the model orientated as in the photo, the battery box is on the other side. That's another (relatively) small job added to the list. The Airfix CL layout seems to match the one in the photo.

 

John