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Combe Martin

New Hornby ex LMS Suburban Coaches

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54 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I'm familiar with the Midland's carriage marshalling books (as held by the Midland Railway Study Centre) but not with later documents - from the Midland books, one can usually workout the type of carriage, but where different diagrams have the same seating and accommodation (lavatories, luggage, brake...) one can't distinguish them. So I imagine that from the 1950s notices you can't distinguish different diagrams of, say, LMS non-corridor lavatory composites, because for operational purposes they were identical. 

 

But I would have thought you could distinguish say BT from BTL? So is that 3-coach Bristol & Gloucester set definitely BT/CL/BT, i.e non-lavatory brake thirds? In which case the Bristol two coach sets are also non-lavatory, i.e. not the pair of vehicles seen in the Green Park photo, which are BTL/CL?

In the 1956 CWN I looked at most of the non-corridor sets don't have any seating numbers, although one Bristol 2-set shown is shown BT (72) C (24/72). The Gloucester diagram doesn't have seating but is definitely shown as 'CL'.

When the lines were transferred in the late 1950s the sets morphed to Western-speak 'Bk. Third, Compo'

 

I remember from personal experience travelling from Stafford to Birmingham in non-corridor Lav stock c1952/3. Later some of the three-coach trains which weren't replaced by DMUs because they only worked a couple of locals in the weekday peak times got the relative luxury of BSK/CK/SK/BSK. These sets were then strengthened on Summer Saturdays to form holiday trains.

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In addition to the Bath/Bristol services with non- corridor LMS stock, each afternoon there was a Cc+BT set at Bailey Gate. It originated in the morning at Highbridge via  Evercreech then to Bailey Gate with the milk. 

 

Apologies to those interested in pre-BR period, in the early years of BR either a 1P or 3F took this turn, later incumbents were 4F, Ivatt Mickey Mouse 2MT finishing with various small GWR types allocated to the SDJR or BR standards.

 

This does pose a question, where did the loco turn after its duties at Bailey Gate or did it return tender first?

 

Cheers

 

John 'Jack' Benson

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

Incidentally, I notice the underframe on the Airfix BTL is on the opposite way round to the coach in the BGP photo. With the model orientated as in the photo, the battery box is on the other side. That's another (relatively) small job added to the list. The Airfix CL layout seems to match the one in the photo.

 

 

I found that when putting together the Dapol parts - I think I managed to bodge the underframe the other way round. I remember having to modify one of the roofs as both carriages came with the same roof molding - had to block up some of the holes for the ventilators and drill new ones; I can't recall if this was on the brake third or the composite.

 

59 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

In the 1956 CWN I looked at most of the non-corridor sets don't have any seating numbers, although one Bristol 2-set shown is shown BT (72) C (24/72). The Gloucester diagram doesn't have seating but is definitely shown as 'CL'.

 

 

That seating corresponds to a 6-compartment brake third and a nine compartment composite, three firsts and six thirds - the standard LMS non-lavatory, non-corridor layouts, built throughout all three periods but operationally identical.

 

34 minutes ago, Jack Benson said:

In addition to the Bath/Bristol services with non- corridor LMS stock, each afternoon there was a Cc+BT set at Bailey Gate. It originated in the morning at Highbridge via  Evercreech then to Bailey Gate with the milk. 

 

Apologies to those interested in pre-BR period, in the early years of BR either a 1P or 3F took this turn, later incumbents were 4F, Ivatt Mickey Mouse 2MT finishing with various small GWR types allocated to the SDJR or BR standards.

 

 

No need to apologise for your interest in the 50s. My interest is in the pre-Grouping period but it's worth looking at what was being done thirty or more years later as the way things were done changed very slowly, even if the stock was updated. Back in 1911, there were a couple of trains from Bristol, to Derby and to Nottingham, made up of S&DJR stock; I suspect this was to balance the mileage worked over the S&DJR by Midland carriages on the Bornemouth expresses. I've not found out when this practice started but I'm hoping it can be pushed back to 1902/3 so I can justify a blue train on my Birmingham-area layout!

Edited by Compound2632
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"....This does pose a question, where did the loco turn after its duties at Bailey Gate or did it return tender first?....

Tender first I suspect - at least those  with tenders that I saw. Usually, a tank engine in later days, as you say, a Pannier or an Ivatt 2MT tank but Standard Class 4 4-6-0s (75XXX class) were also evident.

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6 hours ago, geoffers said:

"....This does pose a question, where did the loco turn after its duties at Bailey Gate or did it return tender first?....

Tender first I suspect - at least those  with tenders that I saw. Usually, a tank engine in later days, as you say, a Pannier or an Ivatt 2MT tank but Standard Class 4 4-6-0s (75XXX class) were also evident.

 

Hi,

 

I thought that I had mentioned  BR Standards in my previous post, maybe not.

 

Apologies for my omission.

 

Cheers

 

Jack

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On 06/07/2019 at 12:58, geoffers said:

"....This does pose a question, where did the loco turn after its duties at Bailey Gate or did it return tender first?....

Tender first I suspect - at least those  with tenders that I saw. Usually, a tank engine in later days, as you say, a Pannier or an Ivatt 2MT tank but Standard Class 4 4-6-0s (75XXX class) were also evident.

On the half dozen occasions I saw the 3.35 off Templecombe or the return "milkie" the loco was always bunker first going south.  I don't recall seeing any published photos showing the opposite.  Locos used: 41296 (twice), 41242, 80067, 80037, 80059.  The train would reverse at Blandford if there were no milk wagons waiting at Bailey Gate.  Why did the locos work this way round?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, tingleytim said:

On the half dozen occasions I saw the 3.35 off Templecombe or the return "milkie" the loco was always bunker first going south.  I don't recall seeing any published photos showing the opposite.  Locos used: 41296 (twice), 41242, 80067, 80037, 80059.  The train would reverse at Blandford if there were no milk wagons waiting at Bailey Gate.  Why did the locos work this way round?

I would guess if milk wagons were to be picked up the loco would be better facing tender/ bunker last with the extra weight on the return journey. Those milk wagons full must have been quite heavy.

Edited by down the sdjr
Tank or tender.

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At the risk of seeming more stupid than usual I also wonder if the reason for tank locos leaving Templecombe bunker first was because there was an advantage of leaving Bailey Gate the right way round (obviously no way of turning a loco at Bailey Gate) with loaded (ie heavier) tanks. The immediate climb northwards from Bailey Gate was 1:100 with a 1:80 just north of Blandford. Was there an operational reason?

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Referring to the picture of the 2 coach LMS set in the centre road at Bath, I'm away from my home at the moment so havnt got access to all my work, but a few years back I did an extensive study (for 1961) of which coach set worked which service out, then back, then on and on, etc etc.

 

As I recall, this 2 coach set was one of the 'Highbridge Branch' sets.  It was worked north to Bath attached to a Maunsell 3 set on an early morning service from Templecombe.  It stayed at Bath all day and then was used for the early evening Bath-Binegar and return service.  Then it returned south on the last service of the day from Bath (approx. 22.20 ??).  Apologies for time details being missing but as I said I'm away from home at the moment.    

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On 06/07/2019 at 12:58, geoffers said:

"....This does pose a question, where did the loco turn after its duties at Bailey Gate or did it return tender first?....

Tender first I suspect - at least those  with tenders that I saw.

 This does tend to contradict both the YouTube film clip and online images of BR Std 4s tender locos and the occasional exLMS 3/4F which brought down the milk. All of which show tender locos facing south hence our question about turning after shunting the milk, although the blog does show 75071 facing north whilst shunting the milk, however it is two images of the same train. Maybe the exception that proves the fool?

 

Youtube clip of Bailey Gate - Bailey Gate film clip

 

Cheers

 

Jack

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On 10/07/2019 at 12:36, Jack Benson said:

 This does tend to contradict both the YouTube film clip and online images of BR Std 4s tender locos and the occasional exLMS 3/4F which brought down the milk. All of which show tender locos facing south hence our question about turning after shunting the milk, although the blog does show 75071 facing north whilst shunting the milk, however it is two images of the same train. Maybe the exception that proves the fool?

 

Youtube clip of Bailey Gate - Bailey Gate film clip

 

Cheers

 

Jack

              Interesting sequences in the video but none of the return working of the 3.35 off Templecombe.  The Standard 4-6-0 with the large tender facing south would likely have been the loco on the 06.35 Evercreech to Poole freight.  I don’t think milk wagons were transported in this working but that doesn’t stop the loco being used to shunt in the creamery sidings.  Working timetables support this.  In 1950 this freight arrived Bailey Gate at 9.30 and stayed until 11.55!  In 1955 it arrived at 9.26 and left at 10.40. There’s the picture we've seen before of 4691 with van and milk tank but no passenger coaches.  Similar for the 4-6-0 with the small tender.  Were there occasional untimetabled workings from Templecombe to collect milk tankers?

              75071 facing north in the blog was the loco off the 3pm Poole freight prior to attaching milk tankers to the up mail.

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Tim,

 

In addition to the Bath/Bristol services with non- corridor LMS stock, each afternoon there was a Cc+BT set at Bailey Gate. It originated in the morning at Highbridge via  Evercreech then to Bailey Gate with the milk.

 

Would this working have morphed into the working in the video, the  Cc+BT set replaced by NPCS?

 

Pure speculation????

 

Cheers

 

Jack

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On 10/07/2019 at 12:36, Jack Benson said:

 This does tend to contradict both the YouTube film clip and online images of BR Std 4s tender locos and the occasional exLMS 3/4F which brought down the milk. All of which show tender locos facing south hence our question about turning after shunting the milk, although the blog does show 75071 facing north whilst shunting the milk, however it is two images of the same train. Maybe the exception that proves the fool?

 

Youtube clip of Bailey Gate - Bailey Gate film clip

 

Cheers

 

Jack

              Interesting sequences in the video but none of the return working of the 3.35 off Templecombe.  The Standard 4-6-0 with the large tender facing south would likely have been the loco on the 06.35 Evercreech to Poole freight.  I don’t think milk wagons were transported in this working but that doesn’t stop the loco being used to shunt in the creamery sidings.  Working timetables support this.  In 1950 this freight arrived Bailey Gate at 9.30 and stayed until 11.55!  In 1955 it arrived at 9.26 and left at 10.40. There’s the picture we've seen before of 4691 with van and milk tank but no passenger coaches.  Similar for the 4-6-0 with the small tender.  Were there occasional untimetabled workings from Templecombe to collect milk tankers?

              75071 facing north in the blog was the loco off the 3pm Poole freight prior to attaching milk tankers to the up mail.

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Jack,

              I too thought that the 3.35 from Templecombe used carriages from a Highbridge train.  In my passenger timetables it went to Bailey Gate in summer 1960 but by summer 1963 and afterwards it terminated at Blandford  - for passengers.  Looking back at the 1955 WTT, the 3.35 also went to Bailey Gate as you’d expect, arriving at 4.26, but in the up passenger train pages there’s a surprise.  There are two “milk” departures from Bailey Gate – at 4.45 and 5.30, the latter labelled Q ie runs when required.  I couldn’t find a corresponding working though that would get a loco in place to haul that, but maybe I’ve overlooked something.  Could the two video workings (75008 and 4691) that have no passenger coaches be that Q working?

              On the day that I saw the 3.35 at Blandford in 1964 it didn’t need to go on to Bailey Gate for milk tankers so the loco just ran round there and waited in the down platform, eventually returning north after the up mail had cleared the single line section to Shillingstone.  After the timetable changed, on other days in theory could the loco have left its coaches in the down platform and continued light engine or just with van to collect milk tankers from Bailey Gate?  Sounds very unlikely to me, and I’d always presumed that everything went on to Bailey Gate, but that’s the only way that I can imagine that the 3.35 would have “morphed into the working in the video”.

Tim.

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On 12/07/2019 at 22:33, tingleytim said: Looking back at the 1955 WTT, the 3.35 also went to Bailey Gate as you’d expect, arriving at 4.26, but in the up passenger train pages there’s a surprise.  There are two “milk” departures from Bailey Gate – at 4.45 and 5.30, the latter labelled Q ie runs when required.  I couldn’t find a corresponding working though that would get a loco in place to haul that, but maybe I’ve overlooked something. 

It wasn't at all unusual (and may even have been normal practice) for LE workings not to be included in the WTT. There is also the possibility that the 5.30Q working replaced the 4.45 when required - usually, but not universally, there would have been a column note in the WTT to that effect for the 4.45 ("Does not run when 5.30 Q Bailey Gate to Templecombe runs").

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