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jools1959

Warships in Hants, Surrey and Sussex.

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Here is a pic of the Gatwick site in the early 70s - The siding for unloading the stone can be seen in the foreground, I believe that they had a bottom discharge unit installed there, but its just out of sight (or was Installed later ?).

 

The building being built is the Multi-Storey car park, the large concrete space in the middle of the pic is H Car Park (Staff Car Park), the Hilton Hotel will be built in the space between H car park and the Multi-Storey  - The roundabout you see is what is now called the Welcome Roundabout, and is the main entrance to the South Terminal.

 

Looks a bit different today though :yes:.

 

Cheers, Bob.

post-10578-0-68985000-1424603171_thumb.jpg

Edited by bobster
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Found an Instamatic snap of the very last working by a Warship on 1O13 13.52 (?) Exeter St. Davids - Brighton.  812 is seen at Southampton.

 

It's undated but filed under 1970 and would have been through the week, almost certainly in August, as the Saturday train was booked 2x33 and load 11 not a single loco and load 8.  A single Warship wasn't enough power for 11 over the LSWR gradients.

 

Somewhere in the dusty files there are also grainy and poor quality images of the train farther along the route.

 

post-3305-0-25731600-1424603340_thumb.jpg

Edited by Gwiwer
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Here is a pic of the Gatwick site in the early 70s - The siding for unloading the stone can be seen in the foreground, I believe that they had a bottom discharge unit installed there, but its just out of sight (or was Installed later ?).

 

The building being built is the Multi-Storey car park, the large concrete space in the middle of the pic is H Car Park (Staff Car Park), the Hilton Hotel will be built in the space between H car park and the Multi-Storey  - The roundabout you see is what is now called the Welcome Roundabout, and is the main entrance to the South Terminal.

 

Looks a bit different today though :yes:.

 

Cheers, Bob.

The bottom-discharge facility is already there- if you look next to the temporary road that crosses the siding, you'll see three lines that pass under the line at right-angles. These were concrete walls, which would have had a pair of heavy girders across their tops to support the rails, and would have formed cells into which the stone was dropped. From there, a brace of big front-loaders would have removed it, tipping either on to that big pile close behind, or into site-tippers for use or storage elsewhere. The site-tippers would have been a motley, and very tatty, selection of ex-road vehicles, and purpose-built vehicles. Here are views of some typical types:-

http://ccmv.aecsouthall.co.uk/p324877858Purpose-built off-road AEC 'Dumptruks' -their spelling.

http://ccmv.aecsouthall.co.uk/p98252596  Also purpose-built, but closer to road standards.

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Thanks FT - I saw it in a couple of other pics that I have, but failed to notice it here (must be my old,ish eyes playing up)

 

Cheers, Bob.

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I dug out some Ian Allan 'Heyday' albums and found the following:-

'Warships' page 78; 821 at Gomshall with loaded hoppers for Gatwick,(0F90), 06/07/1972- photo by Trevor Maxted

'Hydraulics' page 76; 810 between Chilworth and Gomshall,(6O14) , September 1972- again Trevor Maxted 

'Hydraulics' page 66; 812 at Shalford Jct,(6O14) , July 1972; Trevor Maxted. 

What is interesting is how low in the wagon the top of the load was; from track level, you wouldn't be able to see if the wagons were loaded or empty.

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I dug out some Ian Allan 'Heyday' albums and found the following:-

'Warships' page 78; 821 at Gomshall with loaded hoppers for Gatwick,(0F90), 06/07/1972- photo by Trevor Maxted

'Hydraulics' page 76; 810 between Chilworth and Gomshall,(6O14) , September 1972- again Trevor Maxted 

'Hydraulics' page 66; 812 at Shalford Jct,(6O14) , July 1972; Trevor Maxted. 

What is interesting is how low in the wagon the top of the load was; from track level, you wouldn't be able to see if the wagons were loaded or empty.

Look at the springs ;)    Don't forget the stuff going into these wagons for road construction was a lot denser than the coal they had been built to carry and even the ore tipplers (obviously built to carry something denser than coal) suffered considerably from overloading problems at one time on Mendips quarry workings leading to hotboxes and broken springs  and several spectacular derailments.

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That stretch of line - Shalford Junction to Redhill - had certainly had its share of spectacular derailments in the years immediately preceding those pictures. I think engineers' trains had twice derailed at speed in the vicinity of the platforms at Deepdene, on one occasion blocking the A24 for some hours. It is therefore likely that special measures were in place to level loads and ensure even distribution.

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Not sure it's related to this at all but I do remember that Balcombe station was demolished by a very spectacular stone train derailment.  As I recall that was a loaded working on the down which threw stone all over the track, down to the lane below and was responsible for the complete destruction of the London end of the platform. That was never fully restored owing to the light use made of the station and means only 4-car trains or those with SDO can call on the down; the up platform still takes a full 12-car train.

 

I was waiting at Brighton for Victoria at the time.  For some reason, possibly engineering work, the direct Littlehampton trains weren't running and the all-stations along the coast was late missing the advertised connection.  After a significant delay I ended up going back along the coast via Littlehampton and reached London via Crawley.  Had I been on the expected connection I would have been on the first train red-lighted north of Haywards Heath following the incident and subjected to an even longer delay!

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Look at the springs ;)    Don't forget the stuff going into these wagons for road construction was a lot denser than the coal they had been built to carry and even the ore tipplers (obviously built to carry something denser than coal) suffered considerably from overloading problems at one time on Mendips quarry workings leading to hotboxes and broken springs  and several spectacular derailments.

I realised that, Mike; it's just that in some of the wagons, the load only seems to come up to the bottom of the vertical part of the body. This seems a little overcautious..There's another illustration of loading in different wagon types on P47 of the Warships tome. Taken at Clink Road in September 1970, it shows D822 with a brake van, six fitted 16-tonners, 13 unfitted Tipplers, then another 6 fitted minerals and another van. The 27t capacity tipplers are heaped above the sides of the wagons, but the top of the load in the 16-tonners only comes up to the bottom of the top-flap door.

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I realised that, Mike; it's just that in some of the wagons, the load only seems to come up to the bottom of the vertical part of the body. This seems a little overcautious..There's another illustration of loading in different wagon types on P47 of the Warships tome. Taken at Clink Road in September 1970, it shows D822 with a brake van, six fitted 16-tonners, 13 unfitted Tipplers, then another 6 fitted minerals and another van. The 27t capacity tipplers are heaped above the sides of the wagons, but the top of the load in the 16-tonners only comes up to the bottom of the top-flap door.

Sounds like the tipplers were overladed Brian (which was not exactly unusual at one time I understand as they were regarded as having higher tonnage capacity and it was accordingly 'exploited' to get the contract tonnage on the train.  Because of the frequency of hotboxes, failed springs and derailments two things happened.  Firstly the wagon maintenance regime was massively tightened up and secondly a dynamic weighing machine  (basically an arrangement of load cells) was installed on the B&H Extension to detect overloaded and unevenly loaded wagons as it not only weighed both ends but compared them and if any were overloaded/out of balance they had to be put off.  That did quite a lot to reduce the lineside trail of rusting wagons down various banks or dumped out of the way that at one stage seemed to litter the route east of Westbury.

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Found an Instamatic snap of the very last working by a Warship on 1O13 13.52 (?) Exeter St. Davids - Brighton.  812 is seen at Southampton.

 

It's undated but filed under 1970 and would have been through the week, almost certainly in August, as the Saturday train was booked 2x33 and load 11 not a single loco and load 8.  A single Warship wasn't enough power for 11 over the LSWR gradients.

 

Somewhere in the dusty files there are also grainy and poor quality images of the train farther along the route.

 

attachicon.gif700004.jpg

I have a record of 812 on 1O13 on Wednesday 18th August 1971. The WR control records show the loco as coming off at Salisbury, remaining at Salisbury until lunch time the next day, returning to Exeter on 1V11, D6580 coming off 1V11. D6558 failed at Exeter for 1O13. However, after SALISBURY on the 812 card its shewn as THRU.... so I recon this is Wednesday 18th August 1971. Question is.... how did it get back to Salisbury??

 

Regarding the M25 stone trains the headcodes were :-

 

6O11 01.43 Westbury - Merstham / 6V24 08.04 Merstham - Westbury

6O12 05.55 Westbury - Gatwick / 6V33 12.25 Gatwick - Westbury

6O13 07.10 Westbury - Gatwick / 6V42 14.25 Gatwick - Westbury

6O14 08.55 Westbury - Gatwick / 6V83 16.49 Gatwick - Westbury  

6O15 12.20 Westbury - Merstham / 6V96 20.00 Merstham - Westbury

6O16 22.28 Westbury - Merstham / 6V19 05.05 Merstham - Westbury

 

I reckon the 6O12 head code picture is at one of the stone terminals and the 800 has done a Westbury stone trip.... perhaps to Merehead?

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How about this? It is a light diesel, what is 6V14. a booked freight back to the WR?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnmightycat/6021497302/in/photolist-

 

cheers

1972 shot, short plate... 818 perhaps?

 

Although I do have a record of 810 working 6O14 / 6V42 on Saturday 30th September 1972 and the head code was showing 6V14, a combination of 6V(42) and (6O)14 so this could very well be 810 on that date running around 6V42 and the crew just havent bothered to wind round both head code boxes?

Edited by mark alden

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I have a record of 812 on 1O13 on Wednesday 18th August 1971. The WR control records show the loco as coming off at Salisbury, remaining at Salisbury until lunch time the next day, returning to Exeter on 1V11, D6580 coming off 1V11. D6558 failed at Exeter for 1O13. However, after SALISBURY on the 812 card its shewn as THRU.... so I recon this is Wednesday 18th August 1971. Question is.... how did it get back to Salisbury??

 

 

 

I'll accept that date.  My photo is marked 1970 but that could well be an error on my part as they were undated until many years afterwards so I was relying on memory.

 

812 replaced 6558 which was failed with a defective speedometer as I recall.  The WR loco should have come off at Salisbury but with nothing spare there it was either continue to Brighton or cancel the service.

 

At this distance from the fact I can't recall whether one man or two were rostered by Brighton for the 33; two always went west from Salisbury AFAIK because the duties overlapped with rostered class 42 turns which required a second man.  Cromptons only provided electric heating so steam-heat operation by a second man wasn't required.  My photo shows two men in the cab which was required for a hydraulic so the options are that it was driven by the Brighton driver with a Salisbury type pilot, or by a Salisbury driver with the Brighton man as route pilot, or two Salisbury men were found and the Brighton man travelled home on the cushions.  Salisbury men were all trained on Warships as they were the normal motive power on the Waterloo - Exeter route at the time.  

 

Warships turned up at Brighton from the Exeter duty once or twice a year always after a 33 had failed in the west.   The stock was withdrawn to Hove by a Brighton station pilot (class 09 or occasionally a 73) with the loco attached as it could only use platform 2 from which the only exit for a train longer than 4 cars is westbound.  Upon arrival at Hove the train engine would be despatched back to Brighton via Preston Park for servicing while the pilot loco ran round and berthed the stock in the yard.  I suspect when WR traction arrived it was despatched back to London (Stewarts Lane or Clapham Yard?) rather than Brighton in order to pick up a Waterloo - Exeter diagram the next day.

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I'll accept that date.  My photo is marked 1970 but that could well be an error on my part as they were undated until many years afterwards so I was relying on memory.

 

812 replaced 6558 which was failed with a defective speedometer as I recall.  The WR loco should have come off at Salisbury but with nothing spare there it was either continue to Brighton or cancel the service.

 

At this distance from the fact I can't recall whether one man or two were rostered by Brighton for the 33; two always went west from Salisbury AFAIK because the duties overlapped with rostered class 42 turns which required a second man.  Cromptons only provided electric heating so steam-heat operation by a second man wasn't required.  My photo shows two men in the cab which was required for a hydraulic so the options are that it was driven by the Brighton driver with a Salisbury type pilot, or by a Salisbury driver with the Brighton man as route pilot, or two Salisbury men were found and the Brighton man travelled home on the cushions.  Salisbury men were all trained on Warships as they were the normal motive power on the Waterloo - Exeter route at the time.  

 

Warships turned up at Brighton from the Exeter duty once or twice a year always after a 33 had failed in the west.   The stock was withdrawn to Hove by a Brighton station pilot (class 09 or occasionally a 73) with the loco attached as it could only use platform 2 from which the only exit for a train longer than 4 cars is westbound.  Upon arrival at Hove the train engine would be despatched back to Brighton via Preston Park for servicing while the pilot loco ran round and berthed the stock in the yard.  I suspect when WR traction arrived it was despatched back to London (Stewarts Lane or Clapham Yard?) rather than Brighton in order to pick up a Waterloo - Exeter diagram the next day.

If it is an August photo Rick it would be outside the heating period so a Secondman wouldn't be required to look after the boiler.  the turn would be double-manned for other reasons as required by the Manning Agreement - which could boil down to anything from unable to fit a PNB in at the right time (or at all) to overall duration and so on.  Equally it might be a Driver learning the road.

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Regarding D837 its a pre early 1969 shot as the loco doesn't have the date notification panel on the cab side which it gained by April 1969. Its likely to be around July 68 as there are a couple  of shots of the loco near Newton Abbot on 2C25 which was the 10.00 Plymouth to Newton Abbot. Perhaps something 'special' (steam from Dartmouth en route to Newton Abbot Works perhaps?) was coming and the photographers took 'oppurtunity' pictures of the 800?

 

However, as you can see in this shot (attached) the loco is on the line from Paignton with a 1000 coming up beside it on the Plymouth road. So the loco is showing a wrong head code, perhaps still from a previous job for the job its on, Locals Paignton to Newton Abbot were 2C90.

 

 

post-8027-0-01801000-1434369878_thumb.jpg

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I'll accept that date.  My photo is marked 1970 but that could well be an error on my part as they were undated until many years afterwards so I was relying on memory.

 

812 replaced 6558 which was failed with a defective speedometer as I recall.  The WR loco should have come off at Salisbury but with nothing spare there it was either continue to Brighton or cancel the service.

 

At this distance from the fact I can't recall whether one man or two were rostered by Brighton for the 33; two always went west from Salisbury AFAIK because the duties overlapped with rostered class 42 turns which required a second man.  Cromptons only provided electric heating so steam-heat operation by a second man wasn't required.  My photo shows two men in the cab which was required for a hydraulic so the options are that it was driven by the Brighton driver with a Salisbury type pilot, or by a Salisbury driver with the Brighton man as route pilot, or two Salisbury men were found and the Brighton man travelled home on the cushions.  Salisbury men were all trained on Warships as they were the normal motive power on the Waterloo - Exeter route at the time.  

 

Warships turned up at Brighton from the Exeter duty once or twice a year always after a 33 had failed in the west.   The stock was withdrawn to Hove by a Brighton station pilot (class 09 or occasionally a 73) with the loco attached as it could only use platform 2 from which the only exit for a train longer than 4 cars is westbound.  Upon arrival at Hove the train engine would be despatched back to Brighton via Preston Park for servicing while the pilot loco ran round and berthed the stock in the yard.  I suspect when WR traction arrived it was despatched back to London (Stewarts Lane or Clapham Yard?) rather than Brighton in order to pick up a Waterloo - Exeter diagram the next day.

Being as the 800 was back at Salisbury by lunchtime the following day it rather suggests it was returned LD asap, perhaps to get the Salisbury man (men) home?. Since I obtained the loco records for 800's around 8 years ago this working has remained a mystery until this picture was posted, so a big THANK YOU for posting the picture and for solving the question  :no:  :no:  :no:

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a big THANK YOU for posting the picture and for solving the question

 

You're welcome!

 

As I enjoyed travelling on the service it seemed fitting to include it in this discussion.

 

I have had a couple of other details passed to me off-board by SR aficionados.  One is that the stock was withdrawn back from Brighton to Hove without the train engine attached as that could shunt out direct to Brighton Loco from platform 2 via a connecting spur.  Another version had it that the train engine berthed the stock at Hove before being disposed to Brighton and the pilot was only used to shunt the stock out not run round and berth it.

 

It's perfectly possible that the arrangements varied over time and sometimes day by day according to needs and circumstances.

 

I have never come across a record of the WR locos being worked back along the coast.  Given their rarity this would almost certainly have been observed and commented upon had it occurred.  They were also very uncommon on the southern part of the Brighton main line but would pass almost unnoticed once they reached the Redhill area as they were regulars there on freight as we have seen.

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Regarding D837 its a pre early 1969 shot as the loco doesn't have the date notification panel on the cab side which it gained by April 1969. Its likely to be around July 68 as there are a couple  of shots of the loco near Newton Abbot on 2C25 which was the 10.00 Plymouth to Newton Abbot. Perhaps something 'special' (steam from Dartmouth en route to Newton Abbot Works perhaps?) was coming and the photographers took 'oppurtunity' pictures of the 800?

 

However, as you can see in this shot (attached) the loco is on the line from Paignton with a 1000 coming up beside it on the Plymouth road. So the loco is showing a wrong head code, perhaps still from a previous job for the job its on, Locals Paignton to Newton Abbot were 2C90.

Even this picture is a different train to the original posted. The station shot shows the first coach has a toilet end leading, the 'countryside' shot one has a door leading... but both show 2C25.... which was a generic head code for trains running between Plymouth and Newton Abbot.

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A rare pic taken by my Dad while working the Gatwick stone trains...the exact location and identity of the loco and second man posing for the camera are a mystery to me though.

I wish he'd taken more during these days, but it seems he rarely took his camera to work once steam had finished and early diesel shots don't feature much in his albums.

 

WarStone_zps8yoek3jq.jpg

this is 810.... at either gatwick or merehead... but likely more merehead...

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You're welcome!

 

As I enjoyed travelling on the service it seemed fitting to include it in this discussion.

 

I have had a couple of other details passed to me off-board by SR aficionados.  One is that the stock was withdrawn back from Brighton to Hove without the train engine attached as that could shunt out direct to Brighton Loco from platform 2 via a connecting spur.  Another version had it that the train engine berthed the stock at Hove before being disposed to Brighton and the pilot was only used to shunt the stock out not run round and berth it.

 

It's perfectly possible that the arrangements varied over time and sometimes day by day according to needs and circumstances.

 

I have never come across a record of the WR locos being worked back along the coast.  Given their rarity this would almost certainly have been observed and commented upon had it occurred.  They were also very uncommon on the southern part of the Brighton main line but would pass almost unnoticed once they reached the Redhill area as they were regulars there on freight as we have seen.

can you post any others please? thanks.... including hymeks :-)

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Indeed, but can I find any photos of Westerns on these workings taken between Guildford and Redhill? No... I've seen one such train in a book, but taken west of Reading.

 

Thanks to someone on Facebook, I've now found a few photos on flickr of Westerns working the M25/M23 stone trains in 1972, taken twixt Dorking and Reigate.

 

Near Dorking https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/32481673862/in/[email protected]/ (presumably the experts can't identify which one - it has no headboard clips this end)

 

D1009 near Betchworth https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/32576046906/in/[email protected]/

 

D1016 near Reigate https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/32493729381/in/[email protected]/

 

The whole album is worth a look as there are plenty photos of Warships on the stone trains and also of Hymeks and Class 31s on vans in the same area.

Edited by brushman47544

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this is 810.... at either gatwick or merehead... but likely more merehead...

I have a feeling that this is Gatwick. My brother-in-law spent some time there loading the stone into lorries and the van you can see in the background is a Simca 1100. Yes he had one of those. Also the headcode is correct for a Merehead Gatwick service. With reference the stone terminals at Gatwick and Merstham they where to support the two contracts that ran together. W C French split the job in two. The northern contract was for M23 Hooley to A25 Nutfield bridge and M25 from Reigate Hill to Godstone including the multilevel junction between the motorways. The southern contract was for the M23 from Nutfield to Pease Pottage and the Gatwick links road.

 

Mention has also been made of the stone terminals at Crawley an Salfords. Crawley is still in use. The Salfords terminal was for Brett Marine and I believe was served from the Isle of Grain. Both Crawley and Salfords where not dirctly connected to assistining in the building of the M23/M25.

 

Keith HC

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When the M3/M25 stone trains started to operate from Westbury they were mid timetable s they ran as 6Z trains.

 

From around 3rd July 72 one of the regular WTT supplements was issued and the stone trains got regular 6O or 6V headcodes..

 

The details were :-

 

From Westbury                                                     Returns on

 

01.43       M             6Z79        6O11                       08.04       6Z85        6V24

05.55       G             6Z80        6O12                       12.25       6Z86        6V33

07.10       G             6Z81        6O13                       14.25       6Z87        6V42

08.55       G             6Z82        6O14                       16.49       6Z88        6V83

12.20       M             6Z83        6O15                       20.00       6Z89        6V96

22.28       M             6Z84        6O16                       05.10       6Z90        6V19

 

M is Merstham / G is Gatwick

 

The trains ran-round in Woking Yard so you often saw a 6O on a Westbury bound train or a 6V on a G or M bound train because the crews didn't wind up the head code.

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Some brilliant Warship photos in this thread, lovely looking machines.

Interesting how headcodes get reused - 6/7O12 is now Merehead - Woking. I know things change a lot over 40 odd years, but I really don't think that's Merehead. Only place it could be is the White's end of the departure road, assuming there was only one back then.

 

Jo

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Some brilliant Warship photos in this thread, lovely looking machines.

Interesting how headcodes get reused - 6/7O12 is now Merehead - Woking. I know things change a lot over 40 odd years, but I really don't think that's Merehead. Only place it could be is the White's end of the departure road, assuming there was only one back then.

 

Jo

 

It does fit fairly well for the original 'new' access to the quarry - the trees on the left are right for that but the background doesn't look quite so correct and the hut on the right and an adjacent handpoint lever (or what looks like one) means it would be quite close to the quarry if it was Merehead so overall I suspect that it isn't.  However clear dating of the photo might at least help to completely rule out Merehead.

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