RMweb Premium Mark C Posted January 24, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 24, 2015 Many thanks - Parkside's mouldings are excellent, the only other change I made was to substitute steel buffer heads. Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mark C Posted January 24, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 24, 2015 Thanks Phil - there's fourteen of them spread across the six variants - I'll be looking at the other options next... Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveb860 Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 I am another one who has been thinking of building some of these for some time, Mark, your build has spurred me on to get some.Looks a fine build. Phil, how is the production line going? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted January 24, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 24, 2015 I am another one who has been thinking of building some of these for some time, Mark, your build has spurred me on to get some.Looks a fine build. Phil, how is the production line going? Joint progress tomorrow Steve Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mark C Posted January 26, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 26, 2015 Thanks Steve - I built mine in batches and I would recommend that route, but just ensure you keep track of all the parts... Looking forward to Phil's output... Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted January 28, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 28, 2015 I think I may have fallen into a trap set by Hornby! I've renumbered the first wagon in the B******K series and now I've noticed it has LNE axleboxes, so does that mean it is only suitable for a diag 100 vehicle? If so it's out with the Dremel and some Wizard axleboxes. TIA. Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 I think I may have fallen into a trap set by Hornby! I've renumbered the first wagon in the B******K series and now I've noticed it has LNE axleboxes, so does that mean it is only suitable for a diag 100 vehicle? If so it's out with the Dremel and some Wizard axleboxes. TIA. Mike I think axleboxes did get swapped about (to the extent of having different ones on the two axles in some cases..), so I would check against photos; I did try to look at PB's site, but he's password-protected the relevant page, and I can't work out what the password might be. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted January 28, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 28, 2015 I think axleboxes did get swapped about (to the extent of having different ones on the two axles in some cases..), so I would check against photos; I did try to look at PB's site, but he's password-protected the relevant page, and I can't work out what the password might be. PB doesn't have any 1/141's or 1/143's, only the rebodied newer ones, but does have LNER ones. Glad you've got the same problems accessing them, thought it was just me! Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 (edited) PB doesn't have any 1/141's or 1/143's, only the rebodied newer ones, but does have LNER ones. Glad you've got the same problems accessing them, thought it was just me! Mike. The reason for this is because, understandably, he's become fed up with Hornby in particular using his pictures unattributed and without paying even the download fee (cheap enough and, since Hornby are seeking a commercial return, reasonable in my view) to create liveries for their products. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/93576-Hornby-2015-announcements-now-made/?p=1705346 This first became apparent with BR brakevans and, I see, has spread to hoppers. This poor commercial practise is damaging to those of use who actually want to detail, modify, weather or, heaven forfend, actually make our own models and, unfortunately, to Paul's goodwill. Adam Edited January 28, 2015 by Adam 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted January 28, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 28, 2015 That's bloody annoying. Paul is a top bloke, sent me his drawings gratis to go with the last lot of pics I bought. COME ON Hornby, DO THE RIGHT THING, WE'RE ALL SUPPOSED TO BE IN THIS TOGETHER. Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Paul has suggested, elsewhere that this may be the work of Hornby's researchers who may, in fact, be freelance. The problem then, may not only be Hornby's (though such basic ethical considerations should be spelt out in the contract - I know that they have been when I have done freelance historical work). This sort of thing is week one for any history undergraduate or anyone else with even basic research training. Adam Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 28, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 28, 2015 Paul has suggested, elsewhere that this may be the work of Hornby's researchers who may, in fact, be freelance. The problem then, may not only be Hornby's (though such basic ethical considerations should be spelt out in the contract - I know that they have been when I have done freelance historical work). This sort of thing is week one for any history undergraduate or anyone else with even basic research training. Adam It is one thing looking at illustrations on the 'net when carrying out research but it is a totally different thing using an illustration or photo without permission in publicity material. If someone, anyone, can't tell the diiference between the two they should certainly not be in a position where they are selecting illustrations for use in the public domain. And if any sort of researcher is presenting someone else's pictures as his own he is being very naughty and, to be honest, probably of little value as a researcher having failed to clarify his sources. I know of one company which is extremely careful to trace the ownership of and obtain permission to use any photo before they use it for publicity purposes and it is hardly a difficult task to trace Paul Bartlett! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 It is one thing looking at illustrations on the 'net when carrying out research but it is a totally different thing using an illustration or photo without permission in publicity material. If someone, anyone, can't tell the diiference between the two they should certainly not be in a position where they are selecting illustrations for use in the public domain. And if any sort of researcher is presenting someone else's pictures as his own he is being very naughty and, to be honest, probably of little value as a researcher having failed to clarify his sources. I know of one company which is extremely careful to trace the ownership of and obtain permission to use any photo before they use it for publicity purposes and it is hardly a difficult task to trace Paul Bartlett! Quite - the issue here is not that the pictures are used for publicity purposes (though Hornby have form here in the case of some pictures by Steve Jones some years ago), but in research for liveries which, it seems likely, must derive from a download of the image. If I get 'Found it on the internet' without very precise explanation in any professional context it will either cost a student marks, cost an author a rather terse and grumpy email and a contract researcher future work. Now, I don't know and don't want to speculate whether the researcher, as a private individual, has paid for a download - which is possible - but for the purposes of goodwill approaching Paul direct would be sensible - and might get additional useful gen - and an acknowledgement, however expressed would certainly be good manners and would actually do Hornby's reputation no end of good. If a purchaser can see that their model is clearly based on the real thing then everyone is likely to be happy. Adam Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porcy Mane Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 (edited) I think I may have fallen into a trap set by Hornby! I've renumbered the first wagon in the B******K series and now I've noticed it has LNE axleboxes, so does that mean it is only suitable for a diag 100 vehicle? I did tell you earlier boy! Take 100 lines and have a look at this picture. https://www.flickr.com/photos/36891793@N08/15773778950/sizes/k/ And to offer a practical suggestion you could number it as E270887K as photographed by P T Nielson at Exeter in 1973. You would need the end grabs altering to the later type and it had received extended door operating handles by then but at least you don't have to fit any rapping plates. To find the pic for the lettering style is a bit of a PITA. Go to this link: http://www.dansk-jernbanearkiv.dk/turf/t7307/tur7307.htm Scroll down page (or do a "find on page" search) looking for E270887K and click on "Foto" and presto! Your image. I wonder how long it is before Hornby decorate one in that Style? (though Hornby have form here in the case of some pictures by Steve Jones some years ago), I thought that it was Bachmann using his Loco images on header cards? Regardless very bad form from the commercial outfits. I fully understand why Mr Bartlett has taken the action he has. P Edited to add missing words..(and letters). Edited January 28, 2015 by Porcy Mane Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Saunders Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 I think I may have fallen into a trap set by Hornby! I've renumbered the first wagon in the B******K series and now I've noticed it has LNE axleboxes, so does that mean it is only suitable for a diag 100 vehicle? If so it's out with the Dremel and some Wizard axleboxes. TIA. Mike Axles and covers change over the years, the covers would fall off and would be replaced by a one that fitted! Mark Saunders Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted January 28, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 28, 2015 Yet more complications, thanks Porcy! Think I'll take up aeroplane modelling or something simpler. Bang/rapping plates seem to have been fitted at random, eg, 412908 has them and 413709 doesn't, both from Met Cam lot 2167. Also there are differing styles of end grabs, some plate bracketed, some just bent and welded. For me personally it's too much like hard work getting the transfers to match an exact prototype, my individual numbering from HMRS sheets is crap enough as it is, so I think a cheque to that nice Mr Isherwood is in the offing, see what I can cobble together. I fancy having a go at the axleboxes though, although the chassis is so fragile it will be like brain surgery, and with plumbers sausage fingers like mine I could well write the whole chassis off. Thanks to all for your assistance. Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 28, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 28, 2015 Quite - the issue here is not that the pictures are used for publicity purposes (though Hornby have form here in the case of some pictures by Steve Jones some years ago), but in research for liveries which, it seems likely, must derive from a download of the image. If I get 'Found it on the internet' without very precise explanation in any professional context it will either cost a student marks, cost an author a rather terse and grumpy email and a contract researcher future work. Adam But how on earth do you know that someone has looked at a picture purely for research purposes? If, say, a model loco appears with a running number which is exactly the same as that which appears in a photo which you took how do you know that photo was used because quite likely other people also took pictures of that loco. Obviously with a wagon it is probably more likely that a particular photo has been used as an example for showing the form of lettering, tare weight and so on but how does anyone know it is that particular photo unless the company which are making the model happen to publish the photo they have used? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porcy Mane Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 (edited) Bang/rapping plates seem to have been fitted at random, eg, 412908 has them and 413709 doesn't, both from Met Cam lot 2167. Also there are differing styles of end grabs, some plate bracketed, some just bent and welded. I'm pretty certain that Hornby have based their model on the drawing of the Hurst Nelson Diagram 100 published in Tatlow. That's fine for wagons 193217 to 193716 built in1935-6 as they seem to have been built with the simple grab rail arrangement and no rapping plates. I've a feeling that most of these were sold into industrial use in the early days of BR as I've never seen a phot of one in this number series in BR days (So someone will prove me wrong within five minutes of posting this) but I saw dozens with the early grab rails in NCB use. For me personally it's too much like hard work getting the transfers to match an exact prototype, my individual numbering from HMRS sheets is crap enough as it is, so I think a cheque to that nice Mr Isherwood is in the offing, see what I can cobble together. That reminds me, I need some more stuff from CCT, but in the mean time here is what 10 minutes work in an imaging programme produced. Still needs a bit of work to tidy it up and thicken the text but it prints ok and is fully legible on my Laser, There you go Mr Hornby have some artwork for free. (and anyone else who wants to download and fiddle about with it). If it's the boxed style of lettering you're after mainly trains does a fairly comprehensive and adaptable waterslide set of transfers. I fancy having a go at the axleboxes though, although the chassis is so fragile it will be like brain surgery, and with plumbers sausage fingers like mine I could well write the whole chassis off. I'll guarantee 100% that my fingers, that's the ones that work, are considerably more numb than yours. That's why my modelling is painfully slow (pun fully intended) but the advantage is you don't feel it when you stab yourself. Bad digits... poor excuse... P Edited January 28, 2015 by Porcy Mane Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 But how on earth do you know that someone has looked at a picture purely for research purposes? If, say, a model loco appears with a running number which is exactly the same as that which appears in a photo which you took how do you know that photo was used because quite likely other people also took pictures of that loco. Obviously with a wagon it is probably more likely that a particular photo has been used as an example for showing the form of lettering, tare weight and so on but how does anyone know it is that particular photo unless the company which are making the model happen to publish the photo they have used? Therein lies the problem and, as you say it's a bit different with locos. That said, Hornby have produced some brakevans - for example - in very distinctive liveries all of which appear in Paul's collections. 'Beyond reasonable doubt' is difficult, but 'on the balance of probabilities' it's possible. I would post some comparisons, but, of course, I can't actually access the galleries. Adam Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 (edited) I think axleboxes did get swapped about (to the extent of having different ones on the two axles in some cases..), so I would check against photos; I did try to look at PB's site, but he's password-protected the relevant page, and I can't work out what the password might be. You only have to ask, as others have! You are not involved in commercial model manufacturing I haven't seen one of these models. However I do have a nice photo of E193292 the copyright obscures the end detail. I know I cannot prove the origin of artwork used for models by this firm. However how many pictures, in colour of Trouts are there out there? I did get a Midland Tar Tank out of them, this was so distinctive.... but they also got the era so totally wrong! Paul Edited January 28, 2015 by hmrspaul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porcy Mane Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 You'll be inundated now... You have an E mail... P Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 (edited) You'll be inundated now... You have an E mail... P Thats OK, the other advantage to me is that I get a notification of each user of each of these collections. Of course I won't be replying to anyone that does not give a real name. Paul Edited January 28, 2015 by hmrspaul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porcy Mane Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 (edited) I haven't seen one of these models. However I do have a nice photo of E193292 the copyright obscures the end detail. I'll bet my bottom dollar its got the early type grab rails and thinking about it didn't Hornby do that running number on the earlier Dapol type hopper? P Edit: Just done a quick Google and yes they did. The Cheeky Bu**ers... Edited January 28, 2015 by Porcy Mane Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted January 29, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 29, 2015 You only have to ask, as others have! You are not involved in commercial model manufacturing Paul And thank you for sorting me out a few days ago Paul - most kind. Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted January 31, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 31, 2015 Current state of play; Self explanatory I think, but any questions gladly received. Mike. 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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