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jools1959

Waterloo - Exeter Warship Workings

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I read somewhere that the NBL Warships were not as reliable as the the Swindon built examples and they were soon relegated to freight workings.  Is there any truth in this and were just the Class 42's diagrammed to work the Waterloo - Exeter services?

 

Julian Sprott

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It's true the NBL Warships were rarely allocated to Waterloo - Exeter services, the Swindon variety being preferred for reliability reasons, which was important on the long single line sections west of Salisbury. The NBL Warships did work on passenger trains elsewhere on the WR however. They were pretty common on inter-regional trains to and from the Southwest and Paddington - Worcester services.

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That confirms what I had already heard that the Waterloo workings were dominated by Class 42's but both classes were regular on freight workings on the SR around London.  A friend of mine recalled being at Clapham Junction in the late 60's and seeing a Class 42 on a fast passenger working heading west, a class 43 on freight heading towards Willesden Junction and Class 15 heading in the other direction.

 

Julian Sprott

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Not sure if this the right forum for this but I want to recreate a Waterloo - Exeter working with a Class 42 leading.  I'm hoping to get a Maroon Hornby ex LNER Gresley 61ft Buffet car which I believe were used on the these workings in the mid 60's.

 

If anyone has any information on this being correct and train formation, that would be really useful.

 

Julian Sprott

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From June 1965, sets 701, 702, and 703 were allocated to Waterloo - Exeter services

 

701 - BSK+SK+CK+BSK+FK+RUO+RKB+BSK

702 - BSK+SK+CK+BSK+FK+RUO+RKB+BSK

703 - BSK+RKB+SO+FK+CK+BSK+SK

 

I don't have any details of which set worked which services. The RKB and RUO would have been the rebuilt Bulleid Tavern car types I think, in the range 7892-7899, and 7833-7840. The Gresley buffet cars worked from 1966 to the end of steam, and mostly on boat trains. 

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Shame that the Gresley buffets were not used on the Waterloo - Exeter services, love to have created a set with a Warship leading.

 

Julian Sprott

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D817 Foxhound was a regular.

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Some Basingstoke drivers learnt the Swindon built Warships, and used them for the Merstham stone trains and various passenger excursions as well as the LSWR main route.

Learning the Hymeks afterwards was a two day conversion course, and considered somewhat easy after the rather complicated Warships...bearing in mind a driver booking on could still find himself working on steam at the time.

 

To convert to the NBL Warships was in theory a three day course, but it never happened at Basingstoke for various reasons...to everyone concerned's relief!

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One factor which determined which Warships got used, was that to regularly work the Waterloo - Exeter route, they had to carry short circuiting bars (for the "third rail" section between Worting Junction and Waterloo).  As only a few Warships would be running over third rail at any one point, it would not have been worth putting short circuiting bars on all of the class, so only some Warships carried them.  Obviously moving the short circuiting bars between class members each day would not have been ideal, so, it was better to put the short circuiting bars on a designated group of Warships, and, make sure that whichever class members were selected for the Waterloo - Exeter diagrams were from the designated group.  811, 812, 815, 817, 818, 819, 820, 821, 822, 823 seem (from photos) to have been the most common Warships on the Waterloo - Exeter diagrams.

 

Regarding coach formations, on the 5 December 1969, 1O10 (10.15 Exeter - Waterloo) was formed W13288, W5028, W1948, W34912, W35402, W4133, W15810, W25932 (FK, TSO, RU, BSK, BSK, TSO, CK, SK).

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High flyer certainly worked to Waterloo, for some reason it and Diadem stick in my mind, and I'm pretty sure I rode behind caradoc and royal naval reserve too.

 

K

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I was at Exeter for the last two weeks in Aug 1969, and D827 and D828 were working Waterloo services fairly regularly then, and D867 worked one on one day.

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As far as I know most if not all of the Swindon Warships did work over the Waterloo - Exeter route at least once in their respective lives.  The ones I quoted in my previous post were the most usual members to work over the route.  I believe the first one to work over the route was D829 to see how a Warship did, it must have been a success because as we now know, Warships became a daily sight until 1971.

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The Irwell "Book of the Warships" gives details of Waterloo / Exeter workings. It states that Class 42s had virtual monopoly to simplify maintenance and crew training. Only Salisbury drivers were Class 43 (NBL) trained.

As I understand it, that was for the Cardiff/Bristol - Portsmouth duties. A 43 on the West of England main line was a very rare sight. I think I only saw three in about five years. 

 

Even if you had a driver passed on them from Exeter to Salisbury, there's no guarantee he'd not be relieved by a Waterloo man, so sending one up, by accident or design, could cause real problems and require an engine change at Salisbury.

 

John

Edited by Dunsignalling
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High flyer certainly worked to Waterloo, for some reason it and Diadem stick in my mind, and I'm pretty sure I rode behind caradoc and royal naval reserve too.

 

K

Most, if not all, the 42's turned up at one time or another. The cynical green-badger in me considered it was often when they were due/overdue for shopping. 

 

Diadem especially stuck in my mind, too (when still in green); the poor thing had lost so much paint and filler that it was a complete eyesore.

 

John

Edited by Dunsignalling
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I remember reading somewhere that the class 43s were preferred for trains to Crewe that would end up under the wires. There were concerns at the time about diesel deposits on the overhead wires and the class 43s were thought to be better than the Swindon ones in this regard because of their offset exhausts.

 

Not sure if this is documented fact or just trainspotting urban legend. If true it would be a sensible reason for sending the 42s south while the 43s went north.

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Sorry to ask this question (I am sure it gets asked a lot), but I could not find the answer anywhere on RM web or elsewhere on the internet.

 

Which side of a Warship is the left hand side please?  I know most Swindon Warships had an extra grille at cantrail level on one side, and, an access cutout in the skirt between the bogies (same side as the extra cantrail grille).  If I can find out which which side is which, I can then deduce which cab is the A end one (assuming that the A end cab is the one on the left when looking at the left hand side of the locomotive).

 

With most classes, it is easy to work out which end is which and by default which side is which.  Obviously as a Warship has two engines etc, both ends look the same, and, if looking straight down on the roof everything is basically symetrical. 

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So the grille is for the train heating boiler and the access cut out are the fuelling valves IIRC

 

There ought to be an easy way to tell A end from B end - but d*mned if I know what it is!

 

Cant find any pictures of D800-2 with either the vent or the cut out - and other low numbered class members may have been built without but had them added retrospectively

 

Phil

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I remember reading somewhere that the class 43s were preferred for trains to Crewe that would end up under the wires. There were concerns at the time about diesel deposits on the overhead wires and the class 43s were thought to be better than the Swindon ones in this regard because of their offset exhausts.

 

Not sure if this is documented fact or just trainspotting urban legend. If true it would be a sensible reason for sending the 42s south while the 43s went north.

 

You're not imagining it...................it featured in the railway press of the day, I believe in my case it was the Railway Observer, circa 1969.

.

Brian R

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Originally only 803 to 821 were to work on the SR because they had the lower cab floor and the SCD was to of gone in the cab for easy access in emergency. From 822 they had a higher cab floor (i.e. less 'headroom') because it was realised that the Voith transmission was too big to go under the lower cab floor of the Swindon built locos so the cab floor was raised so that a Voith transmission could be fitted.

 

The original idea, of course, was that (like the DB V200's) any engines (Maybach/MAN) and any transmission (Voith/Mekydro) could be fitted in any combination in any 800.

 

As the NBL 43s weren't fitted with preheaters they never had the opportunity to be fitted with Maybachs (which require preheating) and only 822-832/866-870 could ever be fitted with a Voith transmission because they had higher cab floors. So a fantastic idea for total flexibility was perfectly designed out!

 

In the end the SCD's were put in the engine room behind the cab door so any from 803-832/866-870 could be used.

 

On occasions 833's and 7000's were used on the SR but I doubt whether an SCD was carried on the 833's. More often than not they would come off at Salisbury.

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Sorry to bring up an old topic, but I have been doing further research on the "Warship era" Waterloo - Exeter trains, and hopefully I can add some more information that could aid people modelling these trains.

 

On 21/01/2015 at 22:40, stovepipe said:

From June 1965, sets 701, 702, and 703 were allocated to Waterloo - Exeter services

 

701 - BSK+SK+CK+BSK+FK+RUO+RKB+BSK

702 - BSK+SK+CK+BSK+FK+RUO+RKB+BSK

703 - BSK+RKB+SO+FK+CK+BSK+SK

 

I don't have any details of which set worked which services. The RKB and RUO would have been the rebuilt Bulleid Tavern car types I think, in the range 7892-7899, and 7833-7840. The Gresley buffet cars worked from 1966 to the end of steam, and mostly on boat trains. 

 

I can add some more information.  From the research I have done, it would appear that the Waterloo - Exeter service running Monday to Friday in the summer of 1966 (just dealing with the trains hauled by Warships) was basically as follows.

 

One (two day) cycle working one return trip between Brighton and Plymouth (10.12 Brighton - Plymouth (day one) + 10.40 Plymouth - Brighton (day two)).  Because a set of coaches would take two days to complete the cycle, two nine car sets of coaches were required to maintain the daily service.  Each set of coaches used a 6RB set (either 516 or 540 which, according to CWNs of the time were 6 MK1s formed BSK, CK, TSO, RB, TSO, BSK).  A 3 car set (usually a Bulleid L set formed BTSO, CK, BTSO) was coupled onto the Plymouth end.

 

One cycle working one return trip over the whole route with a short working half way through (06.15 Exeter - Waterloo + 11.00 Waterloo - Salisbury + 14.36 Salisbury - Waterloo + 17.00 Waterloo - Exeter).  The Salisbury "shorts" connected with the Brighton - Plymouth route workings at Salisbury to maintain the roughly bi-hourly service between Waterloo and Exeter.  As this cycle always (all being well!) would see the stock end up back where it started (Exeter) each day, only a single set of ten coaches was needed to maintain it.  The set of coaches used was formed of 4RMB set 66 with a 3 car set coupled onto each end (the 3 car sets used were usually MK1 K sets formed BSK, CK, BSK).  The 4RMB set is worth a bit of explaining.  Set 66 was built as a Bulleid (10'' window vents) 2 car R set formed BTSO 4374, BCK 6703 - it then had two coaches added into it to make it into a 4RMB set (formed BTSO, CK, RMB, BCK) - these were Bulleid (15'' window vents) CK 5916 (taken out of three car L set 838) and MK1 RMB 1849.

 

One (two day) cycle working three return trips over the whole route (07.24 Exeter - Waterloo + 13.00 Waterloo - Exeter + 18.03 Exeter - Waterloo (day one) + 09.00 Waterloo - Exeter + 14.10 Exeter - Waterloo + 19.00 Waterloo - Exeter (day two)).  Because a set of coaches would take two days to complete the cycle, two ten car sets of coaches were required to maintain the daily service.  This cycle used 8RKB sets 701, 702 with two loose coaches (CK, SK (they could be either Bulleids or MK1s, and to confuse things further Bulleid TOs and MK1 TSOs were often used instead of the SK)) coupled onto the Exeter end of each set.

 

One cycle working one return trip over the whole route (10.15 Exeter - Waterloo + 15.00 Waterloo - Exeter).  Because this cycle always (all being well!) saw the stock end up back where it started (Exeter) each day, it only needed a single set of ten coaches to maintain it.  This was the cycle that used 7RKB set 703 with a 3 car set (usually a Bulleid L set formed BTSO, CK, BTSO) coupled onto the Exeter end.

 

Now just to throw confusion into the mix, we have the problems of 8RKB sets 701, 702 and 7RKB set 703!  It would appear that these sets didn't stay how they were meant to be formed according to the CWNs.  I haven't studied the formations of sets 701, 702 much because it is impossible to tell which set is which in photos - but because set 703 was unique (and clearly easier to identify in photos) it has been easier for me to research it.

 

According to the summer 1965 CWNs - set 703 was formed (from the Waterloo end) of Bulleid (10'' window vents) BTSO 4378, unallocated RKB, unallocated SO, unallocated FK, MK1 CK 15568, Bulleid (10'' window vents) BTSO 4380, MK1 SK 24307.

 

By around 1966, set 703 seems to have been formed of Bulleid (10'' window vents) BTSO, Bulleid (rebuilt Tavern Car) RKB, Bulleid (15'' window vents TO, MK2 FK, MK1 CK, Bulleid (15'' window vents) TK, MK1 BSK.  The set was in green - apart from the MK1 CK which was maroon.  Also - both brake coaches are "inside out" with their luggage vans facing inwards.

 

By early 1967, set 703 had changed again with the MK1 CK replaced with a Bulleid (59' Multi Door CK), the Bulleid RKB replaced with a MK1 RKB and the Bulleid TO replaced with a MK1 TSO.  This means that set by this stage was formed of Bulleid (10'' window vents) BTSO, MK1 RKB, MK1 TSO, MK2 FK, Bulleid (59' Multi Door) CK, Bulleid (15'' window vents) TK, MK1 BSK.  The set was still in green - apart from the MK1 RKB and TSO which were blue and grey.  Also - both brake coaches are still "inside out" with their luggage vans facing inwards.

 

On 21/01/2015 at 17:29, jools1959 said:

Not sure if this the right forum for this but I want to recreate a Waterloo - Exeter working with a Class 42 leading.  I'm hoping to get a Maroon Hornby ex LNER Gresley 61ft Buffet car which I believe were used on the these workings in the mid 60's.

 

If anyone has any information on this being correct and train formation, that would be really useful.

 

Julian Sprott

 

The Gresley RBs did turn up quite frequently in Waterloo - Exeter trains (especially after the rebuilt Tavern cars had been withdrawn).  They were not the only ex Eastern Region restaurant cars to see use on these trains.  At least three ER RUs (1927, 1930, 1933) were moved to the WR, and, because they were on Gresley bogies, the WR seem to have been "offloaded" them onto the Waterloo - Exeter route.  These RUs probably had some sort of modification to their kitchens to provide some kind of buffet counter.  As far as I know they didn't get rebuilt into RBS vehicles (an RBS had two seating bays replaced with a buffet counter and therefore lost two windows on the kitchen side), they might have been given the RU(B) modification which just saw four seats taken out and a transverse counter put into the existing kitchen (these coaches didn't change on the outside, so are next to impossible to tell apart from an as built RU).

 

Another interesting catering vehicle that seems to have fairly regularly turned up on the route is W80040, the WRs D.702 RK (Restaurnant Kitchen).  This coach is worth going into a bit of detail about.  For people who are not already aware, there were TWO main types of MK1 full kitchen car, the more well known is the RKB (1500 - 1569), these have a kitchen  and a buffet counter but no seats.  These coaches were the most useful version of the full kitchen car because they could be used either as a restaurant car by using an FO, TSO etc next to them as the dining area or on quieter trains (or if an RB or RMB was unavailable) just the buffet area could be used without the need for using an open coach next to them.  The second variant of the MK1 full kitchen car was the RK (80000 - 80040).  These were just a kitchen inside (there was a corridor along one side for people to safely walk through) and HAD to have an open coach next to them to be of any use at all.  They also had absolutely no provision for counter service (so could only provide at seat meal service).  Putting W80040 in a Waterloo - Exeter set must have caused all kinds of problems because from what I gather, all the journeys on that route was meant to have buffet service (with restaurant service also provided on most of the journeys).

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That is really interesting thank you. Early Warship workings from '64 until '67 would have still had double track main line wouldn't it or were more easterly sections singled by then? I CBA to look in my books just now. I only ever had one ride up there from Exeter behind a Warship; can't remember which one as they were of no interest to me at all having seen them all by years before. I left the train at Salisbury or Basingstoke (?) instead of continuing to Waterloo as a lady I had met in the train was alighting at Salisbury or Basingstoke I think it was and then driving to almost where my wife lived at the time in Tadworth and offered me a lift! I've got pics of Hymucks on the up Milk and one on what is possibly a Templecombe or Salisbury local!

My interest era for my layout stops at the end of 1964, despite Rule 1 workings for Blue Peter a couple of A4s and  the odd Merchant Navy after that but the coach info above is still fascinating. In fact my research for Seaton Junction really has never progressed past the end of 1964 and some interesting things must have gone on then as steam was still used on the Brighton until the end of '65 I think; Standard 5s? 

Phil

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7 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

That is really interesting thank you. Early Warship workings from '64 until '67 would have still had double track main line wouldn't it or were more easterly sections singled by then? I CBA to look in my books just now. I only ever had one ride up there from Exeter behind a Warship; can't remember which one as they were of no interest to me at all having seen them all by years before. I left the train at Salisbury or Basingstoke (?) instead of continuing to Waterloo as a lady I had met in the train was alighting at Salisbury or Basingstoke I think it was and then driving to almost where my wife lived at the time in Tadworth and offered me a lift! I've got pics of Hymucks on the up Milk and one on what is possibly a Templecombe or Salisbury local!

My interest era for my layout stops at the end of 1964, despite Rule 1 workings for Blue Peter a couple of A4s and  the odd Merchant Navy after that but the coach info above is still fascinating. In fact my research for Seaton Junction really has never progressed past the end of 1964 and some interesting things must have gone on then as steam was still used on the Brighton until the end of '65 I think; Standard 5s? 

Phil

 

The Salisbury - Exeter line was I think singled in June 1967.  Unfortunately - I don't know much about the steam era - but Standard 5MTs and Bulleid lightweight pacifics would have been the most likely locos used on the Brighton - Plymouth during the early 1960s.  Once the service was dieselised - the Brighton - Plymouth trains would have had Warships west of Salisbury and a class 33 between Salisbury and Brighton.   

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Once the Warships had gone, the Brighton went over to 2 x 6-car Hastings DeMUs for a year or two, then double-headed 33s became the norm until the service was withdrawn.

 

John

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“Once the service was dieselised - the Brighton - Plymouth trains would have had Warships west of Salisbury and a class 33 between Salisbury and Brighton.”

 

Is that really the case? I was unaware that locos were changed east of Exeter.

Edited by Nearholmer

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12 hours ago, acourtrail said:

 

The Salisbury - Exeter line was I think singled in June 1967.  Unfortunately - I don't know much about the steam era - but Standard 5MTs and Bulleid lightweight pacifics would have been the most likely locos used on the Brighton - Plymouth during the early 1960s.  Once the service was dieselised - the Brighton - Plymouth trains would have had Warships west of Salisbury and a class 33 between Salisbury and Brighton.   

Spams worked it almost exclusively till late 64 and 'foreign' locos through to Plymouth towrads the end of that period. Standard 5s lingered after September 1964, as 72A had a few allocated then, on the Brighton and were one of the last steam workings from Plymouth, but Dunsignalling would know far better than me about this and if they continued up to Salisbury. I think they knocked steam on the head in late 65?

P

Edited by Mallard60022

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