Lighted vs non Lighted coaches

[jamessolomon]

Had this debate at a friends seeing his new lighted coaches and wondered these questions we talked about

 

1) lighted vs non lighted do people paint detail and sometimes add people into lighted coaches interior because they show in the windows

2) do people prefer lighted to non lighted interior

3) do they accurately have the correct brightness or do you edit that and tone it down

4) Are they worth the cost vs accuracy to purchase or stay away from it till it improves

[olivegreen]

This subject has been touched upon in another thread, specifically about the Hornby Pullmans, which is an interesting read.  

 

For me, interior lighting (and I speak of 4mm scale) is just a gimmick, intended years ago perhaps to attract the 'toy' market and in imitation of some continental manufacturers who provided it, or provided for it (Märklin and Fleischmann among others). 

As others have said, in reality, in daylight conditions you'd hardly see the illuminated lamps anyway so (your point 3) the modelled ones are far too bright: the other thread gives some good ways to make them duller.

For night-time conditions… and how many of us really run like that ? … coach lighting only has credibility if ALL the layout is lit, which means signals, station lights, house lights and so on.

On the 'toy' aspect I mentioned above - given the finish and cost of the very fine Hornby Pullmans today, they are hardly aimed at the 'toy' market, so I would have thought that interior lighting is an unnecessary addition, and therefore cost.

 

Edited… to add that (your point 1) the over-bright lighting as fitted by RTR manufacturers also serves to emphasise the sparseness of the factory interior finish! Were you to detail it, then that would be a different matter, of course.

 

Just a personal point of view, of course!

Mike

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I'd leave it out and have the saving. I run a 24hr timetable, but it is a permanent mid summer on the layout, miraculously at a latitude more like that of North Cape than just North of Trafalgar Square. As it is one has to switch it off, as stock moved as ECS or in carriage sidings isn't all lit up.

[Waverley West]

Far from thinking it as a gimmick, I really like coach lighting and ultimately aim to have all my coach interiors lit. The same goes for the rest of the layout. To me, night-time sessions add a completely new dimension to a layout..

 

It has to be done well though I think, i.e. everything that would normally be lit on the prototype should be lit on the layout. Ditto re. coaches. I think Hornby's recent efforts with their lit coaches, with dark seating bays at each end, just look daft to my eyes and I will be steering clear of them until I get round to fitting my own lighting or Hornby do something about their coaches or Bachmann produce coaches with decent lighting. 

[Removed a/c]

For me I have no intention of sitting in the dark to run trains and as was said before unless everything else is lit when the lights are out what is the point.  Being pedantic but I think a nighttime layout needs to be designed as such just like a winter layout would differ from a summer layout. It's not just about shutting out the lights if realism is to be achieved. 

 

Maybe it is just me but when I read complaints of this is missing or the wrong font was used or  etc...........but the layout has street lights lit during the day it makes me laugh. I am no means a rivet counter, I run what I like but lit coaches are just a waste of money IMO.  

[Waverley West]

I must admit I'm very surprised by how many modellers think lighting coaches is an unnecessary addition. 

 

I'm not sure a layout has to be built from the start as a "night layout". I just set about building my layout in the normal way but made a point of making sure that all the lights work wherever possible. The only thing that "grates" to any extent is the backscene, but with it being dark anyway, I don't think it's very obvious. In any case, any clouds will be lit up by light pollution above urban areas. If everything is lit up, you don't really sit in the dark anyway.

 

Here are a few shots of a night session on my layout to illustrate what I'm talking about. For the sake of adding a few lights, why wouldn't you want to create night scenes?

 

Each to their own of course but IMHO lights add a completely new dimension to a layout.

 

What I do find frustrating at the moment is that during a night session I can only run trains that have lit coaches (mainly my DMUs at the moment) or parcels/freight (unless they're run as empty stock of course).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[olivegreen]

Some very nice photos there, Waverley West, but the main thing, as you and I have already said above, is that everything needs to be lit prototypically, if the layout is to be credible. When this is so, you get the wonderful results that you have (though no doubt someone will think the lights are too bright: let's just say it's a trick of... the light!). 

 

I have to say that my aversion to fully-lit layouts stems from the ghastly continental too-much-in-too-small-a-space displays, where every motorised and/or illuminated gimmick is crammed in to attract… well, who, exactly, given the cost ?

 

Despite your expertise on the matter, I remain firmly on the side of the 'no' campaign!

[Waverley West]

Some very nice photos there, Waverley West, but the main thing, as you and I have already said above, is that everything needs to be lit prototypically, if the layout is to be credible. When this is so, you get the wonderful results that you have (though no doubt someone will think the lights are too bright: let's just say it's a trick of... the light!). 

 

I have to say that my aversion to fully-lit layouts stems from the ghastly continental too-much-in-too-small-a-space displays, where every motorised and/or illuminated gimmick is crammed in to attract… well, who, exactly, given the cost ?

 

Despite your expertise on the matter, I remain firmly on the side of the 'no' campaign!

 

Darn it olivegreen, and I was determined to convince you otherwise! 

 

Cheers

Dave

 

Edit: The brightness of the lights in the photos above is very much a product of the exposure time. That starburst effect is most definitely a trick of the light!

[Removed a/c]

Those are some great night time shots no denying, There are still things though that would need to be lit (bus interiors) and although covered by the bridge I am sure none of the vehicles have lit head or tailights. For me it has to be all or nothing. I just don't see the need for lights

 

 

Please don;'t get me wrong I am in no way criticizing your layout, it is one of my favourite threads on here and I love it when you post new photos for us to see. 

 

 

 

Regards 

Scott 

[The Great Bear]

Brilliant photos, last and third from last especially, very very convincing

[ColinK]

Before I moved house I had a G scale garden railway. The locos had factory fitted lights and I installed lights in the buildings and coaches. Operating it at dusk with all the lights on was so atmospheric.

[ChrisWV10]

I like lights. They bring a bit more life. Signals, Street lights, illuminated buildings and yes, lit coaches especially if adding passengers. No point adding them if you can't see them!

 

C.

[28XX]

A fully lit layout is a completed layout imho.  Semaphore signals in particular look totally different.  My layouts at home 40 years ago had as much lighting as I could manage, but were marred by the sparks from the pickups.  No longer a problem with battery powered radio controlled locomotives.  

[tractor_37260]

 

 

Each to their own of course but IMHO lights add a completely new dimension to a layout.

 

 

Totally agree - lights add to the overall atmosphere, as does sound, and as for carriage lighting, the SPT 107 in the above photos shows when it is done well - and not like Hornby's botch  - it's well worth the effort. 

[corax67]

I think that if you want lighting in your coaches then why not. If you do go for lighting though it's always nice to add a few passengers too even though getting into modern coaching stock can sometimes raise the blood pressure unduly.

 

As I happen to be someone who loves to build probably even more than I love to run stuff I happily build all my own lighting for buildings, street furniture, coaches & loco's, etc. Like Waverley West I can run during an evening with the house lights off and it adds a fantastic second dimension to the layout and to operation.

 

With the incredibly low cost of SMD LEDs currently then lighting anything is possible and getting the level of lighting correct isn't too much of a bind either. Even self adhesive LED strip is cheap via eBay or other suppliers and is very effective indeed as well as pretty much foolproof to use.

 

Just finishing off some properly scale sized Belisha beacons for some zebra crossings - 0.6mm x 0.3mm SMD Orange LEDs fitted into hollowed out 4mm diameter translucent orange acrylic body jewellery balls on 1mm tube posts - which are a little fiddly but look stunning when put next to a figure on our club layout and cost less than a pound a set to make but add so much to a scene.

 

Even if a layout isn't totally prototypical it doesn't really matter as long as the operator is having fun does it?

[TEAMYAKIMA]

It seems to me that we are looking at different issues here.

 

The question is (for me) 'Do you intend to run a night scene?'

 

If the answer is 'NO' then lighted coaches are both a waste of time and in most cases a toy-like gimmick.

 

If the answer is 'YES' then lighted coaches are an important element

 

I have passengers in all my coaches - it takes about 16 hours per coach to fit them but I don't light the coaches as I run a daylight scene

 

Are the passengers difficult to see? 'YES'

 

Is the effect subtle? 'YES' 

 

Am I pleased with the result? 'YES'

 

Would I light the coaches 'NO'

 

But, I take my hat off to modellers like Waverley West who do produce results like to photos in post # 6

[Colin_McLeod]

 

It has to be done well though I think, i.e. everything that would normally be lit on the prototype should be lit on the layout. Ditto re. . 

Agreed.

I also feel the same about sound. Large sums of money, and lots of discussion on the forum are invested in getting a realistic sound from the locomotive, then the rest of the train glides silently past.

[DCB]

Agreed.

I also feel the same about sound. Large sums of money, and lots of discussion on the forum are invested in getting a realistic sound from the locomotive, then the rest of the train glides silently past.

 

I can't quite believe the comment about sound, it is easy enough to arrange some over large rail gaps to get some very realistic diddly dum diddly dee noises from carriage wheels, that is if you run at scale speeds, if you run at half speed like so many "Scale" layouts of course you might have to resort to electronics!

 

The biggest problem with lighted coaches is the extra drag, the weight of batteries or drag of pickups as so many modern locos have such limited pulling power.   Some years ago I fitted up a couple of Triang brake seconds with LED lights and rectifiers, capacitors etc some years ago and after changing to metal Hornby Dublo bogies and Lima wheels (Insulated one side, one bogie +ve and one -ve) they are very effective with a orange/ yellow LED per compartment ( I had to add compartment walls) and directional tail lights etc and picking up through pin point axles they have very little more rolling resistance than any unlighted coaches.  

An airfix Auto coach is less successful as I had to resort to copper strip pick ups though it needed less LEDs, but running on a friend;s garden line after dark with an Airfix Prairie with headlamp and firebox glow they look really good, especially passing the battery powered LED lit signal box, you just cannot see there is no scenery!  (The Airfix Prairie is confined to nocturnal duties as it is such an awful model)

But really you do need to get the lights spaced right, no dark spaces, and the corridor needs lights too, there were articles in the 1970s Model Railway Constructor I think about light guides which could be an answer for corridors, otherwise you could be looking at 18 or so LEDs per coach,  simple LED strips are a joke. as they are spaced too widely and the illumination should be invisible in daylight.

I also have LEDs in signalboxes, station buildings goods shed coaling stage etc but the problem indoors is that your eyes rapidly become accustomed to the darkness and the effect fades away.   Obviously for brightly lit exhibitions coach lighting has to be absurdly bright or it will not be seen, but judging by the unpainted coach interiors on many exhibition layouts coaches are very much a Cinderella compared to Locos and buildings

[PenrithBeacon]

In my experience as a rail passenger the lights are only put on when it gets dark outside (most layouts are modelled for the daylight hours) or when the train was going into a tunnel. At all other times they were off. My observations of model vehicles with lighting show me that the lights are usually far too bright, but that is an also an observation of lights in railway modelling anyway. Last night I was in the Watford area and it was very noticeable that the lights on the passing trains on the WCML were very Toc-H ish.

 

I have seen the occasional layout which is set during the night and lights can be very effective, but they generally need to be toned down a bit, please.

 

Regards

[PGC]

I haven't read the whole thread, so apologies if I'm repeating something!

 

To my mind, what matters is what would the prototype have done. Would the carriages be lit during daylight hours? No. So why have it in models?

 

Would the prototype have lights in carriage during the hours of darkness? Yes. So put it in your carriages, but then also add it to the buildings, streets, locos etc. and make sure you have the ability to turn off either natural or artificial light sources from outside of the layout. Problematic at exhibitions, I expect, but not at home.

 

Phil

 

Edit:    PS - Meant to add "brilliant photos in post #6"

[jamessolomon]

I see the point vs not having them but if your going to build a home layout maybe its worth it but a exhibition layout id say no as most venues are so well lit its hardly worth having them because you hardly notice. Hes been super detailing the insides of his Network Rail coaches using videos and pics on the net looks smart also putting in lights which I see the point if the interior is super detailed but bog standard coach interiors why bother. If its the molded plastic crap then to me I wouldnt bother unless your using aftermarket detailing parts to replace some of the molded bits or creating an interior from scratch if its empty