GordonC Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 But wagons like Hornbys Clam and Rudd engineers wagons look like they're on sale for just under £10 at the moment. They dont look like bad wagons and I wouldn't have thought there would be much difference in the separately fitted details to Bachmanns Presflos ... of course I haven't got my magnifying glass out to count them. But a difference in quality is not immediately obvious Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWR460 Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 This is not a poor persons hobby. nobody asked you to buy it. I get sick of people moaning at paying quality money for quality items. Much better to work out if you can afford before starting out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dudley Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 During the last 15 - 20 years the quality of UK models has caught up with the quality of European models and in some cases now exceeds the quality of European models - for instance, how many European freight wagons have sprung buffers? Keith I disagree Keith; NEM pocket heights on British 00 stock is still not uniform whereas on Liliput and Roco it has always been so (- as far as I can tell from my models.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie Whizz Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 This is not a poor persons hobby. nobody asked you to buy it. I get sick of people moaning at paying quality money for quality items. Much better to work out if you can afford before starting out. Up to a point, yes ... But the trouble is, for many of us, when we started out - we could! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie Whizz Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Where's the dislike button gone ?? Brit15 Oooh yes, it seems to have disappeared - and I don't recall us being told ... though I think it was 'disagree' rather than 'dislike', actually. 'Fess-up Andy, what have you done with it? If I can "agree" or "like" something withoutbeing compelled to post a full explanation, why can't I do the opposite? WW Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWR460 Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Well I don't see what’s wrong. I just can't understand people moaning about what they can't afford. Its time waisted when they could do something to change that. I just think its about time we focused on the important task of supplying quality products rather than compromises to attract those who can't really afford it. such as Hornby's design clever and Railroad lines. Sorry if my opinions upset anyone its just my opinion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mod3 Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Well I don't see what’s wrong. I just can't understand people moaning about what they can't afford. Its time waisted when they could do something to change that. I just think its about time we focused on the important task of supplying quality products rather than compromises to attract those who can't really afford it. such as Hornby's design clever and Railroad lines. Sorry if my opinions upset anyone its just my opinion. I've been following you around due to numerous reports - are you sure you are on the right forum, you are coming across as a deliberate trouble making troll. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveb860 Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 So for that particular item it looks like they have different prices dependant on if you ring them or order via the website? http://www.ehattons.com/60984/Bachmann_Branchline_38_272_22_ton_Presflo_in_Rugby_Cement_livery/StockDetail.aspx Strange? P As this is new, post price increase stock, Hattons obviously made a pricing mistake and sold a few at the wrong price. They are not allowed to heavily discount any more as per the retailers T&C's with Bachmann. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted February 2, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 2, 2015 But wagons like Hornbys Clam and Rudd engineers wagons look like they're on sale for just under £10 at the moment. They dont look like bad wagons and I wouldn't have thought there would be much difference in the separately fitted details to Bachmanns Presflos ... of course I haven't got my magnifying glass out to count them. But a difference in quality is not immediately obvious The Bachmann Presflo is made up of many more parts than the Clam and Rudd (at least 12 and maybe up to 16 against 5 or 6 in the body alone) John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Legend Posted February 2, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 2, 2015 This is not a poor persons hobby. nobody asked you to buy it. I get sick of people moaning at paying quality money for quality items. Much better to work out if you can afford before starting out.Seemingly the disagree button is no longer there or I would have used it on this. This should not be a rich mans hobby either. I want value for money. I don't think I'm getting it with a £20.95 pipe wagon, when Oxford can launch 7 planks at £8.95, just as an example. Sorry Mod3 I've only just seen your note. I seem to have risen to the bait! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted February 2, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 2, 2015 It's a good game seeking out Presflos at £10 and under, bagged a couple of the little blighters at Stafford this weekend! Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porcy Mane Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 They are not allowed to heavily discount any more as per the retailers T&C's with Bachmann. Thanks, I was aware of that which is why I made my "strange" comment. The Bachmann Presflo is made up of many more parts than the Clam and Rudd (at least 12 and maybe up to 16 against 5 or 6 in the body alone) John John, I think you might be surprised. I've got both Bachmann's Presflo and a Hornby Tope (same underframe as the clam )stripped to component form in front of me as I type. Not counting the Wheels/axles, I make it 30 individual items for the tope underframe and 35 for the Presflo. I've been liberal when counting the Presflo as I've included the discharge pipe work with individual operating hand wheels plus the vacuum cylinder with associated brackets, pull cord stanchions and commode handles. I suppose with both the Rudd and Clam underframe their component count would be higher as they will be fitted with airbrake components that aren't present on the tope. Take a look at the phot in this post and you can see just how many bits go into a Hornby tope underframe: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/94955-hornbys-new-21-ton-hopper/page-2&do=findComment&comment=1751127 I think a bit of "Design Clever has gone into the latest underframe on Hornby's 21 tonner (essentially the same as the tope) as there is only 10 items to assemble on that. So what's the point in my rambling? Well... with assembly costs adding to a good percentage of the final retail price, I'm starting to wonder if we modellers would like to see the re-introduction of the Knocked Down Kit? If that meant a good reduction in price would we be prepared to assemble a pre-painted Presflo ourselves? I mentioned the idea in a different thread a couple of weeks back. It's maybe a question that needs asking in a topic of its own. P Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted February 2, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 2, 2015 Well... with assembly costs adding to a good percentage of the final retail price, I'm starting to wonder if we modellers would like to see the re-introduction of the Knocked Down Kit? If that meant a good reduction in price would we be prepared to assemble a pre-painted Presflo ourselves? I mentioned the idea in a different thread a couple of weeks back. It's maybe a question that needs asking in a topic of its own. P As I, like many others, generally dismantle a wagon to upgrade buffers, wheels, coupling etc, that idea gets my vote. Problem is, according to various manufacturers, it's as expensive not to assemble them as to assemble them, due to various logistical/production line problems, and the market isn't percieved to be there. Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
totonlover Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Know that people won't like what I say but for years the UK modeller, to quote the words of a 1960's politician, has "never had it so good" regarding the prices we have paid for our models. When I first starting buying railway models many moons ago the quality of UK models was not comparable to that of European models and this was reflected in the price. During the last 15 - 20 years the quality of UK models has caught up with the quality of European models and in some cases now exceeds the quality of European models - for instance, how many European freight wagons have sprung buffers? The only problem is that during this period the price of UK models did not increase relative to the increase in level of detail. You only have to look at the Bachmann website and compare the prices of Bachmann Branchline and Bachmann Liliput models - in many cases the price difference for similar models is staggering so, in my opinion, Bachmann Branchline prices still have to do a lot of catch-up. If prices had increased gradually over the years we would not be in the position we are today. To show what I mean looking at the Bachmann website Liliput have a DB Cl.218 Diesel Locomotive at £190.40. looking at Branchline we have the Cl.25 at £94.95, the Cl,37 at £109.95 and a Cl.43 at £134,95. The Cl.43 is probably the best comparison with the Cl.218 as they are both Bo-Bo Diesel Hydraulics. The Cl.218 is a newish model and the Cl.43 is a new model but there is still a difference of £55.45 between the two similar models. Keith PS: I have one of the Cl.218 models and it does not have sprung buffers....... Your comparing different things from the same supplier here! so not really a true reflection of the "market" of other manufacturers, are the americans paying these prices?? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redford73 Posted February 3, 2015 Author Share Posted February 3, 2015 Interesting responses and additions to this thread which I started but I think a lot of those 'defending' as it were the price increases are missing the point that the price increase has been almost 100% on the Presflos!!! I had anticipated/expected and understood there would be increases and was/am prepared to pay the extra but just could not fathom, or sanction by paying for, the greater increase for these items. Meanwhile many of the locos and almost all scenecraft products remain unchanged in price. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
locoholic Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Price increase is over 100%. On the shelf in Hereford Models there is an old Presflo for £9ish, next to a new one for £22. As the Bank of England is allegedly worried about the UK economy entering deflation, I think it's safe to assume none of the senior staff are railway modellers. PS. Where HAS the Disagree button gone!? I'd never used it, but it was nice to know it was there... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
durham light infantry Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Interesting responses and additions to this thread which I started but I think a lot of those 'defending' as it were the price increases are missing the point that the price increase has been almost 100% on the Presflos!!! I had anticipated/expected and understood there would be increases and was/am prepared to pay the extra but just could not fathom, or sanction by paying for, the greater increase for these items. Meanwhile many of the locos and almost all scenecraft products remain unchanged in price. I wold think that the cost of the parts and materials is a smaller percentage of the overall whole (say 25%), than a locomotive (say 75%). There's your price increase if 75% of the cost of an item is labour based and the labour costs have risen, and are rising because the Chinese Government legislate it. Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
darren01 Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 I would love to know what effect, if any the price increase has had on overall sales, I know last year after the prices shot up that I have hardly brought anything from Bachmann/ Hornby. One thing I have got into since then is making more kits/second hand rolling stock, But even the second hand stuff is shooting up in price.! Went to one show where a second hand trader was selling an Ivatt 2-6-0 loco for £55.00, a few weeks later at another show (same Trader, same loco) now wanted £ 85.00!. Bachmann's price increase was said to have been around 15%, But a lot of it has gone up far more than that, some has risen by 75%. I can see these sitting on shop selves for some time at this price,The bubble will burst!. Darren Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray M Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 It looks like my days of looking for those sub £5 wagons & sub £50 loco`s will be long gone. I picked up a 3 pack of weathered Presflows from Dirty boy,at the Doncaster show when they first came out, for £34. I don`t expect to see any more like those, this Saturday. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rembrow Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Durham Light Infantry makes the point about the percentage that labour costs make up the overall production cost, however the unknown is what is the overall production cost compared to the retail price - we don't know, but it is believed to be a fraction of the retail price. I remember some years ago, Geoff Killick of the long closed Braintree Model Railways, telling me that in a Bachmann delivery he received, there was an invoice from Kader to Bachmann for a production run and he was staggered at how low it was in cost per item, when compared to the price charged to him or the price charged at retail. So a large increase in a low cost part of the final price does not necessarily equate to a significant price rise at the retail end, unless other factors are involved. For example, and using hypothetical values- If an item normally retails at £100 and its Chinese production costs (raw materials, labour, packaging) are £10, is subject to a 30% increase in basis production costs, that equates to a £3 increase, which should be a stable increased cost through the supply chain. It does not equate to a £30 increase or 30% at the retail end. The issue of increased wages for the production staff is well deserved, however Kader have stated that they want increased returns from their model railway business and I believe that much of the increases are more related to that objective than the increases necessary to meet additional labour wage costs. In relation to the question of the effect on overall sales, again only from info from my local model shop, but their feedback is that sales of items that bare the June increases have dropped significantly, but as they stock a large pre June 2014 range of Bachmann stock, which they have pegged at the original retail price, those items have been selling well, but won't last forever. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 They're not in my period but I can't help but feel that they're cheap and very good quality for the money. The Dapol kits, which are now very old and looking it, could not be assembled and finished by a modeller who wanted to monetise his/her efforts for the same price. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mat Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 The have bough the three pack of weather one at the higher price as it was something I did want but have just bought less in total I have most of the wagon I require so will not be buying much at present. In time I expect production to move from china to maybe india in search of cheaper labour costs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Mike Posted February 5, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 5, 2015 So a large increase in a low cost part of the final price does not necessarily equate to a significant price rise at the retail end, unless other factors are involved. For example, and using hypothetical values- If an item normally retails at £100 and its Chinese production costs (raw materials, labour, packaging) are £10, is subject to a 30% increase in basis production costs, that equates to a £3 increase, which should be a stable increased cost through the supply chain. It does not equate to a £30 increase or 30% at the retail end. The issue of increased wages for the production staff is well deserved, however Kader have stated that they want increased returns from their model railway business and I believe that much of the increases are more related to that objective than the increases necessary to meet additional labour wage costs. Hi rembrow I'm not sure on what basis you are making that assumption - any increase in the base price will be passed through as a percentage increase at all levels of the chain (not purely as a fixed amount) for the simple reason that VAT and retail mark-ups etc are all based on percentages. So a relatively small increase in production cost can easily lead to a much larger final cost to the final customer. Cheers, Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rembrow Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Mike Of course an increase at the start of a supply chain will lead to a percentage increase in the onward costs at each stage, but not necessarily the same percentage, as each part of the supply chain has different margins and if the increased cost is only at one point in the chain, it is the handling of that increased cost throughout the chain that is relevant. Does it seek merely to recover that increased cost, or does it use it as an opportunity to raise additional income above and beyond the increased cost. I spent the last 10 years of my professional carreer investigating long supply chains to identify artificial trading and fraud so have some insight into the m,echanics of supply chains. The aspect of VAT has limited impact on the effect of an increased cost in the chain, where all parties are VAT registered, as is likely in this trade. In effect the net VAT increase will be the difference between VAT charged to and charged by each business in the chain on that increased cost, as each recovers the VAT charged to them as input tax. So if an increased cost is passed on at that same value there will be no additional VAT, again assuming the business is VAT registered,the last in the chain will charge the non VAT registered consumer VAT on the increase applied. So if only the increased cost is passed on, and all business parties are VAT registered, the consumer will pay the additional cost plus VAT on it at 20%. Of course if businesses in the chain decide to increase prices by more than is necessary to cover increased costs, then there will be a net VAT increase throughout the supply chain. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie Whizz Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 PS. Where HAS the Disagree button gone!? I'd never used it, but it was nice to know it was there... But Br'er Fox, he laid low and said nuffin' ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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