Ldt br signal decorder

[eric67]

Hi

As anyone used the ldt br signal decorders with railroad & co ver 5.5. I have been trying to set these up for months now, LDT have told me that they don't know how to configure them with railroad & co ? which + and - to set for the signals etc.

 

They have the configuration for the german dr signal but not the br signal this shows the configuration is for a home & advance signal is different for each signal so must be similar for the br signal.

 

I have got them working with flags but the logic which is built in to them does not seem to be right? I have read that they only work correctly with a double pulse from a point motor. If you have used these decoders and if you can advise me how to get them working correctly it wouild be great as I am running out of ideas now.

 

I have been told that they work best with railroad & co version Gold but I am happy with ver 5.5 and anyway Gold would cost 500 Euro and that is too much after buying all these Ldt Decorders.

 

Please help, Thank you Eric

[Mike Friedman]

Hello Eric,

 

I'm not sure if I can be of much help, however I do use RR&Co (still on v5.5 as well) as well as 3 aspect signals controlled by LDT decoders but for the DUTCH signals (the BR specific signal decoders did not exist when I built my layout).

 

It would help if you could be a bit more specific about what is not working.

 

I have included two screen grabs to show how the decoders are connected to RR&co with my three aspect signals.

 

Are you using two, three or four aspect signals? With or without feathers?

Do the signals on the layout light the correct aspect when tested from the RR&co screen?

 

Or is it the logic that is not working as you expect?

 

 

[eric67]

Hi Mike

Thank you for your reply, My signals are 4 aspect and are configured like yours except I have the extra aspect,My concern is that the logic is via the flags I have set up in Railroad & co and not the logic that is built into the decoders.

Could you show me how you have set the flags to work with your decoders.

 

Thanks Eric

[Mike Friedman]

Eric, I have had a brief look at the manual for the LDT BR signal decoder and believe there is no logic built into the decoder; it simply accepts the signal for each address ( + or - ) and switches the appropriate LED lamp on or off.

 

Make sure each signal is connected correctly and responding via RR&co by clicking on the test simbol and watching the correct aspect lighting on the signal (see the second pic posted above).

 

The logic is for you to program via the flagmen in RR&co. This can be complex but I will try to show you how I have tackled it (It may well not be the most elegant or brief method but has worked for me).

 

I will have a go at it tomorrow as it will take some time to set up RR&co and the relevant screen shots.

 

Mike

[eric67]

If you programmed the decoder correctly, you should be able to control it directly via your command station (it's in the points address range). By selecting the correct points address on your controller you should be able to see if the signal changes its aspect. If it doesn't, time to reprogram the LDT unit.

Thanks for your reply this is the bit I don,t get are you saying that the Ldt unit should be programed to a point address and not a signal address,I have programed my ldt units to a signal address,which Railroad & co controls with flagmen is this not right???   Help

Eric

[Mike Friedman]

Eric, I think there is no difference petween point decoder addresses and signal decoder addresses, they are both accessory decoder addresses (as opposed to locomotive decoder addresses).

 

As Dutch Master says you should be able to control the signal decoder from your command station (if it allows you to address accessory decoders).

This will test if the signal decoder is correctly responding to the address you have given it.

The advantage of testing it from RR&co is it will test the above but also test the RR&co connection.

 

What DCC system are you using?

[eric67]

Eric, I have had a brief look at the manual for the LDT BR signal decoder and believe there is no logic built into the decoder; it simply accepts the signal for each address ( + or - ) and switches the appropriate LED lamp on or off.

 

Make sure each signal is connected correctly and responding via RR&co by clicking on the test simbol and watching the correct aspect lighting on the signal (see the second pic posted above).

 

The logic is for you to program via the flagmen in RR&co. This can be complex but I will try to show you how I have tackled it (It may well not be the most elegant or brief method but has worked for me).

 

I will have a go at it tomorrow as it will take some time to set up RR&co and the relevant screen shots.

 

Mike

 Hi Mike Thanks for your post , to answer your questions my signals work correctly when I click on the symbols on the screen and also when I plug my controler in they all respond to their address.. by the way my system is a Lenz 100.

With regards to your comment about the logic it is built in the br one as an ic chip with the br logic in it thats why they make all the differing railways systems French-German-British Etc.

you can even buy the ic chips so you can change the logic to whatever railway you want to

Eric

[Mike Friedman]

Eric,

The following is a brief explanation of how I have set the logic for signal S3/151 selected in both the previous pics posted.

 

As you probably know RR&co uses signals internally to control passing a train or loco from one block to the next (page 122 of the manual). These signals are shown at the exit of each block. The 3D signals we model on the layout are only decorative. The problem with the “internal” signals is they only become active if a schedule is running. Hence why most of the signals are shown grey. And although RR&co allows you to link another signal to the internal signal this indeterminate state “grey” or “off” causes problems if linked directly to a 3D signal.

The way round this is to create another signal that exists in RR&co but will not be replicated in 3D on the layout, it is in effect a logic signal only. I created a separate switchboard to house these signals. You create them on the switchboard like any other signal.

The naming convention I use is for 3D signals is S3/151, where the first part of the name is the number of aspects S3 is a three aspect signal and 151 is the first address of the decoder controlling the signal. The logic only signals are named BS for Block Signal and the decoder address is the same, in this case 151 so the link to its' 3D counterpart is obvious. The internal block signal can then be assigned to the relevant logic only signal (see fig. 1)

 

Figure 1

 

The advantage of this logic only signal is that it will replicate the state of the block signal but will not “go out” and be grey.

We can now define the logic we want the 3D signal ( S3/151 ) to use. For clarity the various flags related to BS/151 are lined up next to it (see the top of the switchboard).

The first flag is red as it defines the first condition under which we want the signal to be red; the condition is if the BS/151 is red as this is directly related to the block signal. If RR&co has made this signal red the train is going to stop so our 3D signal has to also be red. (Fig.2 the trigger & fig. 3 the operation that is triggered).

 

Figure 2

 

Figure 3

 

Now for the next red flagman trigger and operation (fig. 4 and 5)

 

Figure 4

 

Figure 5

 

I won't go through all the flagmen as the principal is the same, the final flagman is green as this is one of the conditions that triggers a green aspect. In this case the trigger is that the BS/151 (the logic only signal) is green AND the next signal (S3/141) is yellow. (Fig 6 trigger and Fig.7 operation)

 

Figure 6

 

Figure 7

 

I hope the above helps. It can be difficult to get ones' head around how RR&co operates. In v5.5 the logic operands are limited hence the number of flagmen required. I believe the Gold version has much improved logic so triggers and subsequent operations are easier to define.

[Mike Friedman]

Eric, the only logic built into the LDT BR decoder is which aspects are allowed to be on at the same time i.e:

 

Feathers may be ON or OFF regardless of aspect shown.

If a RED aspect is lit no other aspect may be lit (apart from feathers)

One or two yellows may be lit. But if only one is lit it must be the bottom one. (Feathers can be on or off)

If the GREEN aspect is lit no other aspect may be lit (apart from feathers).

 

The logic or to properly distinguish it from the above we can call it interlocking (i.e: under what set of circumstances any of the aspects allowed to be lit should be lit) is up to you to define through RR&co.

[Suzie]

A DCC system knows only 2 address ranges: one each for loco's and accessories. Points, signals, uncoupler rails, its all under the accessories label. What RR&Co does is reserve part of this address range for signals and another part for points, on the basis that with some 2,000 addresses available, it's not very likely any hobbyist, bar the really ambitious like the folks in Hamburg, need anywhere near that number of addresses.

 

To test this, download JMRI (it's free), connect it to your DCC system (stop RR&Co, reboot the PC if necessary) and program the LDT decoder with an arbitrary address. Now, go to the controller of your DCC system, select the points control modus, dial the address you gave the LDT decoder in the previous step and toggle the positions by hand. Come back if it doesn't work

 

This is not quite right, as well as locos and standard accessories, there is a third extended accessory address range for signals. Not all command stations support the extended accessory addresses (Lenz with the USB interface is a good example of one that does not) and a lot of signal decoders still just use a group of point addresses to control the signals. The LDT decoder is a good example of a signal decoder that uses point addresses - it uses a block of seven point addresses and swithing the seven points normal and reverse gives fourteen aspects that can potentially be displayed. This compares to a decoder that responds to the extended accessory protocol where each signal occupies a single address (yes you can have over 2000 signals) and the command station just sends an aspect number to the address to display the aspect rather than a sequence of point normal/reverse commands.

 

If you want to see the evidence look at decoders by Team Digital and Signalist and at JMRI which uses the DCC signal head driver and especially the DCC signal mast driver to control an extended accessory signal when configuring a signal - much easier to configure than using a bank of point addresses with the other drivers. Rocrail also supports extended accessory protocol and allows you to create signals with up to 32 aspects where a signal has a single address and you just assign aspect numbers to the aspects. I think that Railroad & Co does not support it unfortunately, and signals have to be created with a bank of point addresses with + and - assigned against the addresses to get the aspect to display.

 

You can very quickly run out of point addresses when you start using them for signals. I signalled a small station (1.2m x 4.8m in 00) the other day on a Lenz command station that used nearly a hundred point addresses for points and signals - you can soon run out on a big layout, especially if you are using decoders like the LDT that take seven point addresses.

[eric67]

 

Eric,

The following is a brief explanation of how I have set the logic for signal S3/151 selected in both the previous pics posted.

 

As you probably know RR&co uses signals internally to control passing a train or loco from one block to the next (page 122 of the manual). These signals are shown at the exit of each block. The 3D signals we model on the layout are only decorative. The problem with the “internal” signals is they only become active if a schedule is running. Hence why most of the signals are shown grey. And although RR&co allows you to link another signal to the internal signal this indeterminate state “grey” or “off” causes problems if linked directly to a 3D signal.

The way round this is to create another signal that exists in RR&co but will not be replicated in 3D on the layout, it is in effect a logic signal only. I created a separate switchboard to house these signals. You create them on the switchboard like any other signal.

The naming convention I use is for 3D signals is S3/151, where the first part of the name is the number of aspects S3 is a three aspect signal and 151 is the first address of the decoder controlling the signal. The logic only signals are named BS for Block Signal and the decoder address is the same, in this case 151 so the link to its' 3D counterpart is obvious. The internal block signal can then be assigned to the relevant logic only signal (see fig. 1)

 

Figure 1

fig 1.JPG

 

The advantage of this logic only signal is that it will replicate the state of the block signal but will not “go out” and be grey.

We can now define the logic we want the 3D signal ( S3/151 ) to use. For clarity the various flags related to BS/151 are lined up next to it (see the top of the switchboard).

The first flag is red as it defines the first condition under which we want the signal to be red; the condition is if the BS/151 is red as this is directly related to the block signal. If RR&co has made this signal red the train is going to stop so our 3D signal has to also be red. (Fig.2 the trigger & fig. 3 the operation that is triggered).

 

Figure 2

fig 2.JPG

 

Figure 3

fig 7.JPG

 

Now for the next red flagman trigger and operation (fig. 4 and 5)

 

Figure 4

fig 3.JPG

 

Figure 5

fig 4.JPG

 

I won't go through all the flagmen as the principal is the same, the final flagman is green as this is one of the conditions that triggers a green aspect. In this case the trigger is that the BS/151 (the logic only signal) is green AND the next signal (S3/141) is yellow. (Fig 6 trigger and Fig.7 operation)

 

Figure 6

fig 5.JPG

 

Figure 7

fig 6.JPG

 

I hope the above helps. It can be difficult to get ones' head around how RR&co operates. In v5.5 the logic operands are limited hence the number of flagmen required. I believe the Gold version has much improved logic so triggers and subsequent operations are easier to define.

 

Hi Mike Thanks for all your help ,But I am now struggling how to set my flags for my yellow aspects. my signals are 4 aspects could you help me with the flags for yellow1 and yellow2 every thing is working fine.But I can,t get my head round the flags for the yellows,Do I need to leave one flag as default?? Sorry to be a pest  Eric

[Mike Friedman]

Hello Eric, sorry I didn't see your PM till this morning.

 

As regards the yellow and double yellow aspects the principle is the same as explained previously, except this time we will be concerned not only with the block after the signal but also the next signal, and for the double yellow the next two signals.

 

Fig 1. below shows the triggers for signal S3/151 to show a yellow aspect.

The conditions are that BS/151 is green (at the top of the separate switchboard), this logic only signal is triggered by the internal signal shown at the right hand end of block 64 (shown green in the picture). Your train/loco is in block 64 approaching the end of the block and signal S3/151. (If it was a live layout block 64 would be orange to indicate it was occupied with a picture of the train in it. But for the purposes of the post I have just set up the signals for you.).

 

If the internal signal and its' related logic signal (BS/151) are green it means RR&co has checked block 63 is clear and the train can proceed from block 64 to block 63. However for the purposes of our 3D four aspect model signal we are also concerned about the next signal S3/141. If this signal is red it will trigger S3/151 to show yellow, as the train can proceed into block 63 but with caution and be prepared to stop as the next signal is red.

Figure 1:

 

 

Fig 2. simply shows the operation triggered by the previous conditions i.e. signal S3/151 is yellow.

Figure 2:

 

 

Fig 3. shows the triggers for a double yellow. Once again the BS/151 signal must be green, signal S3/141 must be yellow and in addition the two signals at the end of block 67 (S3/180 and S2/169) must be red. Fig. 4 shows the triggered operation, signal S3/151 showing a double yellow. I created an orange flagman for the double yellow operation to distinguish it from the yellow flagman for the single yellow.

Figure 3:

 

 

Figure 4:

 

 

I hope the above helps.

Feel free to ask any further questions if you get stuck.

[eric67]

 

Hello Eric, sorry I didn't see your PM till this morning.

 

As regards the yellow and double yellow aspects the principle is the same as explained previously, except this time we will be concerned not only with the block after the signal but also the next signal, and for the double yellow the next two signals.

 

Fig 1. below shows the triggers for signal S3/151 to show a yellow aspect.

The conditions are that BS/151 is green (at the top of the separate switchboard), this logic only signal is triggered by the internal signal shown at the right hand end of block 64 (shown green in the picture). Your train/loco is in block 64 approaching the end of the block and signal S3/151. (If it was a live layout block 64 would be orange to indicate it was occupied with a picture of the train in it. But for the purposes of the post I have just set up the signals for you.).

 

If the internal signal and its' related logic signal (BS/151) are green it means RR&co has checked block 63 is clear and the train can proceed from block 64 to block 63. However for the purposes of our 3D four aspect model signal we are also concerned about the next signal S3/141. If this signal is red it will trigger S3/151 to show yellow, as the train can proceed into block 63 but with caution and be prepared to stop as the next signal is red.

Figure 1:

 

Fig10.JPG

 

Fig 2. simply shows the operation triggered by the previous conditions i.e. signal S3/151 is yellow.

Figure 2:

 

Fig11.JPG

 

Fig 3. shows the triggers for a double yellow. Once again the BS/151 signal must be green, signal S3/141 must be yellow and in addition the two signals at the end of block 67 (S3/180 and S2/169) must be red. Fig. 4 shows the triggered operation, signal S3/151 showing a double yellow. I created an orange flagman for the double yellow operation to distinguish it from the yellow flagman for the single yellow.

Figure 3:

 

Fig12.JPG

 

Figure 4:

 

Fig13.JPG

 

I hope the above helps.

Feel free to ask any further questions if you get stuck.

 

Hi Mike Thanks for your help re-setting yellow and double yellow, can you just clear one thing up for me that I don't understand.  My layout has 7 signals that make up one complete circuit so if I set the yellow signals as you have shown me - I set the first then move down to the next number 2 sig obviously as you have pointed out each time I set a signal the settings are moving along several blocks so by the time I get to the settings for sig 4 - the double yellow would be changing settings for the first block ?? is this correct and if so do I set all the 7 signals as you have suggested or if not then at which signal do I stop - I realise that this is a bit more complicated as I am operating a circle layout.

Sorry to be a pest BUT with your help and patience I am getting there, you are very, very kind.

Eric

[Mike Friedman]

Hello Eric, sorry for the slow reply, real life often gets in the way of our hobby.

 

You're having a circle is not a problem; each signal is triggered in exactly the same way, and even a four aspect signal will only be referencing the signal in the next block.

 

I created a basic oval track with seven blocks and signals. For the sake of simplicity and clarity the Block Signals (BS 81, BS 83, etc.) and flagmen are all on the same switchboard. The BS signals (on the inside of the track) will not appear on the layout, they are the logic only signals linked to the respective blocks.

In the picture below the train is in Block 100, so signal S4/81 is triggered to go red, this in turn activates the yellow flagman for signal S4/93 and it therefore goes yellow, this activates the orange flagman for signal S4/89 and it goes double yellow. We can follow the train in the next four pictures as it trundles round to block 104 (bottom right) and see how the signals react. (I only bothered to define flagmen for four of the signals as the logic is identical)

 

 

 

 

 

Looking at the flagmen in more detail (the example below is Signal S4/81) but each signal uses the same principal just referencing it's own Block Signal and the block and signal ahead it.

The red flagman is triggered if the block (100) in front of the signal is occupied OR the BS 81 is red.

 

 

The yellow flagman is triggered if BS 81 is green AND the block (100) in front of the signal is clear AND signal S4/83 is red.

 

 

The Double yellow is triggered by the orange flagman if BS 81 is green AND block 100 is clear AND signal S4/83 is yellow.

 

 

We require two green flagmen as there are two states where S4/81 can be green; BS 81 must be green AND block 100 must be clear AND S4/83 can be either double yellow or green. One of the limitations of V5.5 is triggers are either AND or OR, they cannot be mixed hence the two flagmen.

 

 

 

I hope the above helps.