BlueRail Trains - Bluetooth Locomotive Control

[rgmichel]

Progress has been slow, but its progress nonetheless.  Good job by the manufacturer responding to our requests for integration with existing dcc.

[GrapevineFlyer]

Has anyone had a chance to try the new BlueRailDCC by Tam Valley?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IsFtiFUUkk

 

I am curious about trying this in my garden line.

 

I've been reading the user guide and it looks promising:  http://bluerailtrains.com/blueraildcc/userguide/

[Trainnoob]

Just stumbled across this discussion while browsing.

 

I have a simple question, if I have a bluerail board fitted to a locomotive with a DCC sound chip attached, does it require DCC power to the track still? Or can it run on DC.

 

I assume even with blue rail running multiple blue rail fitted trains on a DC power supply is not possible.

[KingEdwardII]

1 hour ago, Trainnoob said:

does it require DCC power to the track still? Or can it run on DC

You should read the user documentation here:

 

http://bluerailtrains.com/blueraildcc/userguide/

 

"The boards can be powered by any standard power source: DC, DCC, AC, or battery"

 

However, you have to install a board costing ~$100 that seems only available from suppliers in the USA. One of those suppliers says: "I have disabled ordering Blue Rail and Tam Valley boards due to component supply issues"

 

The idea is simple enough - control via Bluetooth, separate from power by any means. 

 

However, it does point to a possible future direction for model railways of wireless control. Needs a more cost-effective solution, in my opinion.

 

Yours,  Mike.

Edited November 11, 2021 by KingEdwardII
spelling

[Nearholmer]

5 minutes ago, KingEdwardII said:

However, it does point to a possible future direction for model railways of wireless control.

It has already arrived, and become very common, and cheap, in American 0 gauge. 
 

There are at least two widely-used proprietary systems, Lionel and MTH. Both allow locos to run from either battery or (the usual way of doing it) a fixed voltage, AC or DC, on the track, and control is then from a remote (I think the MTH system can use ‘base station control via the track’ or direct to loco, the Lionel one is I think only direct to loco).

 

I’m not sure whether the technologies are closely related to DCC standards, or use hugely different protocols, but both achieve pretty similar functionality, and there are very simple versions (low functionality) used in the ‘toy’ end of the product ranges, as well as high-functionality versions at the ‘model’ end.

 

So, a high proportion of r-t-r 0 (which is a big market in the US, toys as well as models) comes ready fitted.

 

I’ve got one loco with each system. The Lionel Hall Class, I got for the children to run on my layout, and I deliberately set a low fixed DC voltage on the track so they can’t drive it at warp speed, then hand the remote over (the remote came with the loco). The MTH GE 44 Tonner I run as a track controlled straight DC loco, because I didn’t want to buy the base station and remote just for one loco, and even on straight DC I can control about 50% of the sound functionality (it responds to rates of change of voltage) - tremendous fun!

 

When this sort of tech will hit r-t-r H0 I don’t know, maybe NMRA DCC is so popular that there is no room in the market, but if/when it does, I think it will sweep the board, because it dispenses with so much fiddling and faffing to get high-quality running. It is dead easy.

 

(The MTH loco is very ‘intelligent’ too: no switches to tell it what form of power supply it is being asked to accept, AC or DC, just put it on the track or connect a battery up, and turn the power on, and it takes a sniff and works it all out for itself)

[Trainnoob]

1 hour ago, KingEdwardII said:

You should read the user documentation here:

 

http://bluerailtrains.com/blueraildcc/userguide/

 

"The boards can be powered by any standard power source: DC, DCC, AC, or battery"

 

However, you have to install a board costing ~$100 that seems only available from suppliers in the USA. One of those suppliers says: "I have disabled ordering Blue Rail and Tam Valley boards due to component supply issues"

 

The idea is simple enough - control via Bluetooth, separate from power by any means. 

 

However, it does point to a possible future direction for model railways of wireless control. Needs a more cost-effective solution, in my opinion.

 

Yours,  Mike.

But can it run Multiple trains, or bluerail fitted trains that also has sound decoders on a DC powered layout. 

Or do those still require a dcc powered track. 

Edited November 11, 2021 by Trainnoob

[KingEdwardII]

22 minutes ago, Trainnoob said:

But can it run Multiple trains

I don't mean to be rude - but read the user guide, it's in there. (The answer is "yes")

 

As for more complex questions, the user guide points to a Forum providing tech support. I'd ask there.

 

Yours, Mike

[Trainnoob]

21 minutes ago, KingEdwardII said:

I don't mean to be rude - but read the user guide, it's in there. (The answer is "yes")

 

As for more complex questions, the user guide points to a Forum providing tech support. I'd ask there.

 

Yours, Mike

i didn't think you were rude. Im a little thick. I just got a little confused because i didn't know if it meant just direct motor control blue rail or if it applied to bluerail and dcc Sound too. 

 

For me if it allows multiple train operation on Analogue that is a big plus. I use dcc but might refer this to a freind who has analogue, i feel like compared to the price of somethings in the model railway hobby, 100$ isn't the cheapest but its not too bad. 

Edited November 11, 2021 by Trainnoob

[Ron Ron Ron]

9 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

It has already arrived, and become very common, and cheap, in American 0 gauge. 
 

There are at least two widely-used proprietary systems, Lionel and MTH. Both allow locos to run from either battery or (the usual way of doing it) a fixed voltage, AC or DC, on the track, and control is then from a remote (I think the MTH system can use ‘base station control via the track’ or direct to loco, the Lionel one is I think only direct to loco)..........

 

Those are not the same thing as the BlueRail Trains system at all.

Completely different.

 

Both the MTH WiFi version of their DCS and the WiFi add on to the Lionel Trains Legacy control system, use the manufacturers proprietary control systems involving track power supplies and various control modules.

i.e. they require expensive trackside hardware.

 

The BlueRail Trains system does away with all the hardware outside of the loco, as the control system exists entirely in software, in the app and in the loco decoders (boards).

Outside of the board (decoder), there's nothing to buy or fit, other than providing a power supply ....either DC, AC, or DCC (as a power source only) through the rails, or from an on-board battery.

 

 

.

 

Edited November 11, 2021 by Ron Ron Ron

[Ron Ron Ron]

Trainnoob, BlueRail Train are supposed to be working with an established sound decoder manufacturer (not confirmed, but suspected to be SoundTraxx), with the intention of releasing DCC sound decoders complete with Bluetooth modules and the BlueRail Trains software embedded.

These could be used on both DCC (on a DCC layout) and with the BlueRail Trains control app (using one of the motive power source options).

 

Three years on, these haven't seen the light of day and it's not clear if this plan has been abandoned.

 

.

[Nearholmer]

2 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Those are not the same thing as the BlueRail Trains system at all.

Completely different.

 

Both the MTH WiFi version of their DCS and the WiFi add on to the Lionel Trains Legacy control system

I realise that they are by no means identical to Bluerail, although the app version of  Lionchief gets pretty close.

 

 

Lionchief has, so far as I’m aware, always been a “direct to loco” system, and is completely distinct from using a wi-fi link to control via a legacy system. Lionchief has no ‘trackside hardware’ except a power supply (a “wall wart” at the simplest level), although a battery fitted to the loco works just as well.

 

I point these things out because they are very much on the market, mainstream ways of controlling mass-market r-t-r trains, reinforcing the point that ‘direct to loco’ with either track or battery control is the ‘direction of travel’. 
 

IMO the Lionchief system is excellent from a simple usability viewpoint, although I doubt that it has the ability to control quite so many bells and whistles as a more “railway modeller” focused system (it does control enough noises for my tastes, and I think will control couplers etc.).

 

The big disadvantage of proprietary systems of course, is that they are proprietary!

 

 

Edited November 11, 2021 by Nearholmer

[Trainnoob]

3 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Trainnoob, BlueRail Train are supposed to be working with an established sound decoder manufacturer (not confirmed, but suspected to be SoundTraxx), with the intention of releasing DCC sound decoders complete with Bluetooth modules and the BlueRail Trains software embedded.

These could be used on both DCC (on a DCC layout) and with the BlueRail Trains control app (using one of the motive power source options).

 

Three years on, these haven't seen the light of day and it's not clear if this plan has been abandoned.

 

.

Hopefully they take British outline sound into consideration. 

I suspect only American outline sound will be supported. 

[KingEdwardII]

6 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

BlueRail Trains system does away with all the hardware

Well, not quite, in that there is a ~$100 board to install in your loco - and unless you are able to use the very basic functionality of that board on its own, you will also need to have a conventional DCC decoder in the loco as well. Certainly for stuff like sound, you will need a DCC decoder.

 

The other problem with the BlueRail Trains board is that it is quite large - it does not look to me as if it will be an easy fit into an OO steam loco.

 

Having said that, the system is based around a standard wireless comms technology - Bluetooth - which I think is a very good thing. The other systems identified by @Nearholmer seem to be completely proprietary which means you get locked in to the hardware of a single supplier.

 

Bluetooth is inherently bi-directional and so offers the prospect of units around the layout being able to provide feedback to the command unit without the need for any other special arrangements.

 

Yours,  Mike.

[Nearholmer]

47 minutes ago, KingEdwardII said:

Having said that, the system is based around a standard wireless comms technology - Bluetooth - which I think is a very good thing.

Bluetooth is really only a carrier, ditto wi-fi. What is run over it is going to be proprietary, unless built to an open-source standard.
 

Is BlueRail open, or is it just a different proprietary system, but one which has the vital ability to interface with DCC?

The Lionel system certainly uses a carrier from the same family as Bluetooth; I think it may actually be Bluetooth, but am not certain. There are several carrier formats, and there are other ‘direct to loco’ control systems, notably those typically used by garden railway enthusiasts, and the very good ‘toy’ systems sold by Playmobil, all rooted in RC model car practice. These tend to be designed for lower functionality, but greater robustness of the wireless link, and have better range in practice than Bluetooth.

 

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

1 hour ago, KingEdwardII said:

Well, not quite, in that there is a ~$100 board to install in your loco .....

 

Slack wording on my part.

Now edited.

 

 

.

[Trainnoob]

The old Bluerail boards are no longer available, the blueraildcc is the only current dcc board. 

 

Yet the support for bluerail dcc is still not available on android. 

 

And it doesn't look like there making only progress to make it android compatible. 

[KingEdwardII]

41 minutes ago, Trainnoob said:

bluerail dcc is still not available on android

Yes, that would kill it for me. I've never owned an iPhone or iPad and I'm not likely to in the future.

[Trainnoob]

8 hours ago, KingEdwardII said:

Yes, that would kill it for me. I've never owned an iPhone or iPad and I'm not likely to in the future.

Also theres no signs of it coming soon nor that there making progress on it. 

[Ron Ron Ron]

10 hours ago, Trainnoob said:

......Yet the support for bluerail dcc is still not available on android. 

 

And it doesn't look like there making only progress to make it android compatible. 

 

That's not unusual.

 

Many companies who use apps to control hardware, choose not to use the Android platform, or have abandon it after a time, as the effort and cost to support the app can be quite high.

 

When a new product arrives, with the intention of making both IOS and Android apps available, it's also not uncommon for the IOS app to take precedence and be released earlier.

 

 

 

.

[Trainnoob]

5 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

That's not unusual.

 

Many companies who use apps to control hardware, choose not to use the Android platform, or have abandon it after a time, as the effort and cost to support the app can be quite high.

 

When a new product arrives, with the intention of making both IOS and Android apps available, it's also not uncommon for the IOS app to take precedence and be released earlier.

 

 

 

.

Actually, the developer license is cheaper for Google then IOS.

 

I don't understand from a user's perspective but from a Developers perspective I understand, except for the cost of development.

 

Also a bit of clarification: I meant making any progress not making only progress. I hate typos.

Edited November 12, 2021 by Trainnoob

[WIMorrison]

The issue with Android is that there are so many flavours as each OEM tweaks it for their hardware and screen sizes are all over the place. For Android we needed to maintain almost 100 code variants whereas for iOS it was 6.

 

 

[Trainnoob]

1 minute ago, WIMorrison said:

The issue with Android is that there are so many flavours as each OEM tweaks it for their hardware and screen sizes are all over the place. For Android we needed to maintain almost 100 code variants whereas for iOS it was 6.

 

 

I can imagine how many developer headaches that causes. 

 

I am prepared to wait for the android version, it's Just a little bit annoying not having it on android yet.

[KingEdwardII]

28 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

and screen sizes are all over the place.

That could be said to be a market serving its customers. One of the reasons I opted for Android for my smartphone in the first place was that Apple initially refused to produce a phone with a large screen size. Samsung did make such a beast and so gained my business. Eventually Apple realised their mistake and produced a large screen format phone, but by then it was way too late from my perspective.

 

It isn't particularly hard to build an app that deals with varying screen sizes - laptop apps have been doing it for a very long time.

 

Yours, Mike.

[autocoach]

I have been following BlueRail both in the UK and US for several years.  Because I have always believed Apple products are rotten to the core (I have installed BI software and done other consulting for most of the Silicon Valley big names except Apple). I had to look at an alternate solution.

 

I  jumped onto the LocoFi bandwagon whose throttle installs on an android platform and which uses the 2.4 GHZ band for communication on WIFI. See (https://www.wifimodelrailroad.com/). The receiver/decode is narrow enough for US style hood unit diesels. It includes a sound speaker and has a micro card for over the air upgrades and other sound files than the generic US sound files that come with the basic package. 

 

I went and bought an inexpensive (in the US anyway) small Amazon Fire tablet so I can use the WIFI 2.4 GHz band without switching my Samsung phone from the 5 GHz which is standard for me in the house. I have a dual band router. It works fine on the Amazon table. 

 

I had a moderately difficult install in a HO KATO powered F7 as there was not enough head room between the very large Kato motor block and the receiver unit. I am using an older Stewart F7 shell that had a removable radiator section and was able to file that down to get the receiver to fit. There was room at the back end of the F7A for the micro speaker. This would not be a problem on an older Athearn Unit although those prior to the Genesis units would need to have the motor electrically isolated. I am also leaving the B units unpowered. Multiple unit control is being worked on. The unpowered B units could be used for rechargeable battery power to go dead rail. That may be in the future. 

 

Right now according to their website they have run out of chips due to the worldwide shortage for the Gen 2 receiver. The Gen 3 has been prototyped and will include steam sounds and possibly an add on keep alive capacitor to smooth over any signal or track power interruptions.

 

I have no financial interest in LocoFi but John Abatecola who did their installation video is a friend.  Once the 3rd generation receiver board is available, I will be looking into gradually powering my small US motive power collection.  I no longer have my Brixham or Padstow layouts so I am not too worried about trying to stuff a receiver into any of my Beattie Well Tanks. Well, only one of them still runs anyway. 

 

I understand the BlueRail receiver board is now produced by the San Diego, California, area based Tam Valley. They are having similar problems building new receivers due to chip supply issues.  See  http://bluerailtrains.com/blueraildcc/userguide/ . They have higher amp units for outdoor and large scale model railroads.  But they are limited to using Apple iPhones as throttles.

 

Good luck everyone....

Edited November 13, 2021 by autocoach

[Ron Ron Ron]

7 hours ago, autocoach said:

 

…..I understand the BlueRail receiver board is now produced by the San Diego, California, area based Tam Valley. They are having similar problems building new receivers due to chip supply issues.  See  http://bluerailtrains.com/blueraildcc/userguide/ . ………

Unfortunately and sadly, Tam Valley Depot have suffered a couple of tragedies.

One of their small number of key employees passed away recently and the proprietor and designer of most of their products, Duncan McRee, has been diagnosed with stage IV lung cancer (he has never smoked either).

Combined with the shortages of electronic and other components, Tam Valley have had to drastically reduce their product range and output.

 

There’s no longer any mention of BlueRail Trains on their web site, as those products were handed over to Dead Rail Installs a long time ago.

I’ve no idea if Dead Rail Installs sourced the “boards” from Tam Valley Depot, who designed them, or from a third party manufacturer, but they are not currently available to order on the DRI web site.

 

This all leaves BlueRail Trains in limbo, with no product to sell.

The Tam Valley boards are not available and the announced BlueRail Trains equipped DCC sound decoders, haven’t appeared from the “well known” decoder manufacturer (thought to be Soundtraxx ?).

 

 

.