Midland Railway in EM gauge

[Dave Hunt]

Bloomin' Norah! If I'd produced that in S7 I'd be pleased!

 

Dave

[Donw]

That is a cracking model Jerry. I would suggest that anyone interested in MR/S&D would find much of interest inyour Bath Queen Square thread.

 

Don

[DayReturn]

On 10/09/2021 at 13:07, lezz01 said:

I have three observations about the 700 class DF goods in 4mm.

Firstly the Falcon/ jedenco kit is woeful. The outside frame and inside frame wheelbase doesn't match I tried to build this kit long ago and failed. 

Secondly don't hold your breath waiting for an LRM kit to emerge, it's been rumoured to be "about to happen" for over 25 years!

Lastly the K's kit isn't that terrible, although it will cost you upwards of £100 on ebay as they are getting to be like hens teeth and rocking horse poo. I finally scored one last month after about a year of being out bid on every offering. I look forward to building it soon although it will have a scratch built chassis. I keep having mad crazy ideas about including working inside motion using a modified Brassmasters 4F motion kit. It will need a new motion plate and modified valve gear but I think it's possible as all the basics are in the kit. The build will be on my layout thread but it's not top of the build list so don't hold your breath as there are at least 5 locos in front of it including a Wills 4f that will be getting working inside motion if I can manage to build it from the Brassmasters kit. The motion kit is a bargain at £18 although if you don't have all the bits that don't come with the kit the tubes and rods will cost you around the same again.

In closing I would just like to add that Derek's Kirtely DF locos are exquisite.!

Regards Lez.     

Thanks for this info Lez.  Slightly intrigued, I have just measured up all the wheelbase-related dimensions on both the superstructure and outside frames, and the separate inside frames and coupling rods frets.  They all seem to correspond to 8' plus 8'6" by my vernier.  These as I said, are current issue etches from Falcon aka Hatuk73 aka Samantha.  I have a Keyser model, agreed it's a good model for something entirely in whitemetal and has the advantage of distorting the Earth's gravitational field in its vicinity.  I also have several frets of the BM inside motion to make up - I've started one and not hit any snags yet but can't make up my mind which project to fettle it into - critical before I take it any further.  (I also have an unmade 4F kit that was its source, and shelved that while I wonder how to add weight when the bulk is formed of the resin boiler - suggestions welcome.)  Perhaps there may be mileage in a hybrid Jidenco/Keyser model - lessons to learn from DJH perhaps.

Thanks again

Mehmood

[lezz01]

Yes I agree the BM motion kit is very useful as it will fit into just about anything Midland 0-6-0, 2-4-0 and even 4-4-0. You will need to extend the eccentric straps for the 700 DF goods and lose the rockers for everything other than 4Fs, although I believe that some other locos had them depending on the builder. My policy is that if you can see it from a reasonable distance and a normal viewing angle then it should be fitted. There's no point fitting motion to a 1P as you can't really see it. Given that you will view my layout looking over a scale 12 foot wall the motion of most locos will be seen or the absence will be obvious at least. So I will be trying to add a suggestion of the motion even if I can't manage working motion. It may become problematical with single beam compensation but I guess that if I paint that red then it will at least be a suggestion of something between the frames if not I'll use springing instead of beams. I don't know what to tell you about the Falcon DF, I'm pleased that yours seems correct, all I know is my outside frames didn't match the chassis and it was not the chassis it was the running plate and OS frames that were out. Yes I could have built a chassis that matched but it wasn't a compromise I was prepared to live with so I sold it on to someone who was less fussy. 

Regards Lez. 

Edited September 12, 2021 by lezz01

[DayReturn]

9 hours ago, lezz01 said:

…. my outside frames didn't match the chassis and it was not the chassis it was the running plate and OS frames that were out. …

Ah, now I’m with you.  The first thing I checked was to see how the curved running plate was to be represented, e.g by bending along a grid of half etch lines on the underside, as with the Kirtley 2-4-0 kits, but no, the running plate has been etched in strict plan view with no allowance for the curves, so would finish up about 5mm too short!  In my trade (IT), we have some technical terms for this sort of situation, so it’s not unfamiliar.  So I have already accepted the need to carve out a scratch running plate.  It also spawns the thought of using the Jidenco scrap to start a straight framed 240 class version.  (On far slenderer grounds have many other never-to-be-finished projects commenced so don’t watch this space.)

 

Meanwhile I’ll wait patiently for MrKirtley800 (Mr Kirtley jnr?) and the outshopped Jidenco original.   And seeing the delightful 2mmFS engines just leaves me awestruck.  (I’m sure we had some fist size Cadbury pounds one Easter, that looked just the same as the one in the pic.  I looked hard for the join or signs of melting chocolate.)

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, DayReturn said:

In my trade (IT), we have some technical terms for this sort of situation, so it’s not unfamiliar.

 

Not to be repeated on a family forum, no doubt!

[Mrkirtley800]

My apologies for not replying.  I am laid up at the present time, having had  an argument with a kitchen chair back in July.  I finished up a very poor second best, and resulted in a heavy fall on my left side.  To compound matters, I managed to pull my walking frame on to my right side.  It had two heavy walking sticks hooked over it, so finished up black and blue from shoulder to knee, my right arm badly cut and needing stitching  and breaking two ribs..  I couldn’t get up, I seemed to have lost my strength so Olga rang for the ambulance, which whisked me off to hospital for a ten day stay.

On finally getting home, the local Nurse Practitioner sent me straight back, she found I had a large amount of water sloshing around inside me.

However, medication has sorted that out and having lost a stone in weight, I feel much better.

I haven’t been in the railway room since July, but hope to resume activity later in the week.

As far as the Kirtley goods are concerned, I can’t remember much about building them.  The K’s kit was bought for me by Olga as a birthday present in 1966, and built it as instructions.  The Jidenco one took me about twenty years to build.

However, when I get back I will be better placed to describe their building

Derek

[Andrew P]

34 minutes ago, Mrkirtley800 said:

My apologies for not replying.  I am laid up at the present time, having had  an argument with a kitchen chair back in July.  I finished up a very poor second best, and resulted in a heavy fall on my left side.  To compound matters, I managed to pull my walking frame on to my right side.  It had two heavy walking sticks hooked over it, so finished up black and blue from shoulder to knee, my right arm badly cut and needing stitching  and breaking two ribs..  I couldn’t get up, I seemed to have lost my strength so Olga rang for the ambulance, which whisked me off to hospital for a ten day stay.

On finally getting home, the local Nurse Practitioner sent me straight back, she found I had a large amount of water sloshing around inside me.

However, medication has sorted that out and having lost a stone in weight, I feel much better.

I haven’t been in the railway room since July, but hope to resume activity later in the week.

As far as the Kirtley goods are concerned, I can’t remember much about building them.  The K’s kit was bought for me by Olga as a birthday present in 1966, and built it as instructions.  The Jidenco one took me about twenty years to build.

However, when I get back I will be better placed to describe their building

Derek

Golly gosh Derek, I'm just catching up after a long time, and now find your throwing yourself about in the Kitchen.  Please take care, we take longer heal as we get older.

All the very best.

Andy.

[DayReturn]

2 hours ago, Mrkirtley800 said:

My apologies for not replying.  

Oh my goodness I really didn’t intend to press you to respond soon or at all if  it put you to any trouble!  And I’m terribly sorry to hear of your injuries.  Twenty years is well within my timescales.  

[Donw]

Sorry to hear of your troubles Derek do take care.

 

Don 

[Mrkirtley800]

Thanks Andy.  I very rarely fall over or trip, but when I do, I usually jump up and carry on doing what I was doing.  Years ago, I was standing on top of the deep freeze doing some electrical work on the ceiling when I fell off, straight on to my left shoulder, but got up, rubbed the sore bit and climbed back on the freezer to complete the job. Am I an idiot, or what?

Its OK D, I like to reply to people pretty quickly.  This time I don’t have an option with my eagle eyed wife behind me.  I have to behave.  I am owing Douglas of Florence Locomotive Works a reply to a request.  As soon as Ican get into my drawings etc I can reply.

Derek

Edited September 12, 2021 by Mrkirtley800

[lezz01]

Sorry to hear that you've been in the wars Derek. Hope that you are back to your normal self soon.

Regards Lez.

[Dave Hunt]

I just want to add my wishes for your recovery Derek. There should be an MRS Newsletter arriving soon to provide a bit of light reading for you.

 

Best wishes

 

Dave

[ChrisN]

Hope you feel better soon.  Kitchen chairs can be vicious so be careful next time.

 

All the best.

[westerhamstation]

Hi Derek, I wish you well and hope that you are feeling fitter soon. All the best Adrian.

[Rowsley17D]

Sorry to hear about your chair troubles, Derek. We need all the modellers we can in N Yorks. Take care.

Edited September 13, 2021 by Rowsley17D

[Mrkirtley800]

Wow,  Queensquare, that is a beauty.

 

Here is my K’s Kirtley, built back in the mists of time.  I didn’t know much about Midland engines in 1966 (still don’t) but I had bought a Skinley drawing to help.  In fact the drawing was in the form of a blueprint, but was partly dimensioned, so that I could check the accuracy of the drawing and of the parts in the kit.  Some people were questioning the accuracy of Skinley.

I built the kit as instructed, so fitted the Deeley smokebox door and parallel chimney.  The cab is a bit high, I used the cast cab roof which was quite bulky.

I have been tempted to rebuild the loco but loth to risk the paintwork by my good friend Larry Goddard.

The mainframes (chassis) was the K’s brass keyhole type and the motor a mark 2.  It ran very well, but over the years I have produced a scratch built running gear with decent wheels, a gearbox and Mashima motor.

My son calls it “ye olde faithfull’

Here are a couple of pics.

 

 

 

Derek

[Mrkirtley800]

I bought a Jidenco kit for a Kirtley goods quite soon after they were issued.

It took me about 20 years to build it.  To say that I was disappointed with the kit would be an understatement, but did persist.

The mainframes did not match the outside frames, so I scratch built the running gear. The footplate, when attached to the outside frames did not allow the axles to be square, so I had to cut the footplate down the middle and resolder, then filing the footplate so that it was square.  It meant it was a bit short so had to fill in with bits of nickel.

The boiler was so thin, I threw it away and used brass tube. Not too happy with the chimney now, but I have turned a blind eye.

Gibson wheels and cranks, Mashima motor, but sadly no gearbox.

painted by me in plain black.  I couldn’t face trying to finish in full Midland lined crimson lake.

 

 

[Mrkirtley800]

Another couple of pics of the Jidenco Kirtley

 

 

 

[Penlan]

1 hour ago, Mrkirtley800 said:

I have been tempted to rebuild the loco but loth to risk the paintwork by my good friend Larry Goddard.....

I would leave it alone, it has patina, looks 'comfortable', sit's nicely on the track.
What's not to like. 

[DayReturn]

On 19/09/2021 at 11:55, Mrkirtley800 said:

I bought a Jidenco kit for a Kirtley goods quite soon after they were issued.

It took me about 20 years to build it.  To say that I was disappointed with the kit would be an understatement, but did persist.

The mainframes did not match the outside frames, so I scratch built the running gear. The footplate, when attached to the outside frames did not allow the axles to be square, so I had to cut the footplate down the middle and resolder, then filing the footplate so that it was square.  It meant it was a bit short so had to fill in with bits of nickel.

The boiler was so thin, I threw it away and used brass tube. Not too happy with the chimney now, but I have turned a blind eye.

Gibson wheels and cranks, Mashima motor, but sadly no gearbox.

painted by me in plain black.  I couldn’t face trying to finish in full Midland lined crimson lake.

 

Thank you for these excellent pictures, it looks like you did a fine job on both kits - the K's one doesn't look at all chunky and they both look very much the part.  I have an Omega Models 1327-class 4-4-0 that I bought more than 40 years ago and come back to from time to time - I've re-made the chassis at least half a dozen times - in fact I might have learnt more skills from trying to work that kit than any other and it's still less than half-made.  Perhaps there's value in such poorly designed kits after all!  On this 700-class Jidenco/Falcon kit, my version, still on its fret, the frames dimensions seem to check out, inside and out.  I think Lez above made the same point as you, about the frames not lining up, so perhaps the fret I have has been revised since Jidenco's time.  I'm trying to visualise what you mean about the footplate/outside frames unit not allowing the axles to be square, I did notice the running plate seems shorter than I think it should be.  It's not quite as bad as I first thought, I stated above that the running plate is to plan view dimensions, whereas on re-checking, there is some allowance for the curve - I'll give it a try a bit at a time in my bending machine.  More importantly, I've already resolved to create a jig especially for these pieces, as they will be crucial to any chance of visual success - the running plate, outside frames and running plate bracket/valance.  My pack came without a boiler etch, so I'll roll a new one anyway.  Chimney, dome and safety valves will probably be turned from scratch, I don't believe I have enough option spares to furnish any of these, plus that doesn't then constrain my choice according to the chimney styling.  Gibson wheels yes, not a lot of choice in P4 - I do have a project which involves cutting my own, but that's a different story and I will be well pleased if that project comes out ok.   Cranks - probably Gibson, but I was toying with using the etched and layered fly cranks in the kit plus hollow axles to mount them on, but realistically it will be easier to use the ready made Gibson cranks.   I will probably go for a tender-mounted motor and cardan shaft, to allow the loco to be heavily weighted - if it isn't heading up a train of 50 wagons (if only!) then it isn't earning its keep.  (On that subject I ruminated on the question of the Midland's "small engine policy" and pondered that these engines and other small 0-6-0s were still in revenue earning service hauling coal to London and assorted iron foundries and steel mills when their book value would have depreciated to zero long before, whereas other pre-group railways' 20th century "big engines", especially glamorous express engines, conceivably probably barely covered the costs of designing, building, running and servicing them before being scrapped as non-standard and inefficient.)

 

Anyway, thanks again for the photos, thanks for a very entertaining layout blog, and please don't trip over any more kitchen chairs!

[Mrkirtley800]

Thank you for your comments D.  In  my ignorance, when first starting to build the Jidenco kit, I went ahead blithely putting together footplate and frames.  It was only after I built the mainframes and put the wheels on that I discovered the outside frames were not identical, so, the axles were not in the middle of the cut outs.  It was probably my fault for not checking, but had to slice thefootplate in half longitudinally, and solder it back again so that it fitted mainframes.  File the front and rear so that everything was square and fill in with small strips on nickel so that it was the correct length.

It is all so long ago, but that kit has stuck in my mind.  Certainly, it spent more time in its box than being built.  As Ian Rice said, “Jidenco kits are scratch builders aids”

 

If anyone has been sent me any pm’,s,  I can’t get my iPad to access them.  Something seems to have changed,  and if Andy York reads this, will he please get in touch.  I need some assistance.

 

Derek

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 21, 2021 by Mrkirtley800

[queensquare]

On 19/09/2021 at 11:32, Mrkirtley800 said:

Wow,  Queensquare, that is a beauty.

 

Here is my K’s Kirtley, built back in the mists of time.  I didn’t know much about Midland engines in 1966 (still don’t) but I had bought a Skinley drawing to help.  In fact the drawing was in the form of a blueprint, but was partly dimensioned, so that I could check the accuracy of the drawing and of the parts in the kit.  Some people were questioning the accuracy of Skinley.

I built the kit as instructed, so fitted the Deeley smokebox door and parallel chimney.  The cab is a bit high, I used the cast cab roof which was quite bulky.

I have been tempted to rebuild the loco but loth to risk the paintwork by my good friend Larry Goddard.

The mainframes (chassis) was the K’s brass keyhole type and the motor a mark 2.  It ran very well, but over the years I have produced a scratch built running gear with decent wheels, a gearbox and Mashima motor.

My son calls it “ye olde faithfull’

Here are a couple of pics.

 

 

 

Derek

That's very kind many thinks, your red Kirtley in particular is a thing of beauty. My self imposed discipline on RMWeb is to rarely leave the 2mm area but this is one of the few threads I follow, great stuff.

 

jerry

[lezz01]

53 minutes ago, Mrkirtley800 said:

Thank you for your comments D.  In  my ignorance, when first starting to build the Jidenco kit, I went ahead blithely putting together footplate and frames.  It was only after I built the mainframes and put the wheels on that I discovered the outside frames were not identical, so, the axles were not in the middle of the cut outs.  It was probably my fault for not checking, but had to slice thefootplate in half longitudinally, and solder it back again so that it fitted mainframes.  File the front and rear so that everything was square and fill in with small strips on nickel so that it was the correct length.

It is all so long ago, but that kit has stuck in my mind.  Certainly, it spent more time in its box than being built.  As Ian Rice said, “Jidenco kits are scratch builders aids”

 

If anyone has been sent me any pm’,s,  I can’t get my iPad to access them.  Something seems to have changed,  and if Andy York reads this, will he please get in touch.  I need some assistance.

 

Derek

 

 

 

 

 

Not your fault at all Derek. There's a very good reason why Jidenco kit's were, and still are, known as S***denco. The situation didn't improve in the slightest when it became Falcon Brass. Ricey got it wrong too as the proper term for those kits is preformed scrap!! They are without any doubt the worst kits ever produced for British outline locos. I have nothing but admiration of the highest order for anyone who can actually build a half decent model from one of those monstrosities. A perfect example of "never mind the quality feel the width" if ever there was one! I've never met a modeller who has anything nice to say about those kits.

Regards Lez.     

[Rowsley17D]

10 hours ago, Mrkirtley800 said:

If anyone has been sent me any pm’,s,  I can’t get my iPad to access them.  Something seems to have changed,  and if Andy York reads this, will he please get in touch.  I need some assistance.

 

Derek

 

 

This might get @AY Mod Andy's attention quicker, Derek.