Unusual PW configurations thread both real and model.

[Pacific231G]

Here is a very peculiar railway that served a very useful purpose but needed very little rolling stock.

 

From looking at a certain company's catalogue and particularly the price list  I'm pretty sure I know why it was build this way. Any guesses?

Edited July 7, 2021 by Pacific231G

[Compound2632]

We've seen this one before, maybe not on this thread. Isn't it in the Musée des Arts et Métiers in Paris? A Decauville system used for moving exhibits around.

Edited July 7, 2021 by Compound2632

[Pacific231G]

26 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

We've seen this one before, maybe not on this thread. Isn't it in the Musée des Arts et Métiers in Paris? A Decauville system used for moving exhibits around.

Yes it is in the Arts et Métiers (though their excellent exhibit demonstrating why railways are better than roads didn't appear to be the last time I was there) and it was in this thread about five years ago. I'd forgotten I'd posted it here as I also wrote it up for the NGRS. So, without going back to 2016, where I gave my explanation, would anyone care to exercise the little grey cells to guess why the railway was built in this peculiar way with one flanged and one unflanged wheel on each axle?

It appears to be Decauville as there's a wagon turntable with their name on it and the bogie is similar to one in their catalogue but it's  certainly not a standard item and it both track and  bogies must have been a special order. 

Edited July 7, 2021 by Pacific231G

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

It's a wagon turntable on a monorail system.

 

The Irish had a monorail turntable with three rails. 

I'm hoping Accurascale will get round to producing it in 4mm.

 

[Compound2632]

One rail is simply to support the weight of the trolley and load - rather than spoiling that lovely parquet. The other, with the flange groove, provides the guidance. I suppose this was done because of the tight radii of the curves - I suppose the wheels are loose on the axles?

[Pacific231G]

11 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

One rail is simply to support the weight of the trolley and load - rather than spoiling that lovely parquet. The other, with the flange groove, provides the guidance. I suppose this was done because of the tight radii of the curves - I suppose the wheels are loose on the axles?

They're not Stephen  (I  looked! )  and the curves, though tight, are no more so than Decauville's "SetTrack" curved pieces in their catalogue. The load on each side would have been equal but the grooved rail did provide  the guidance. Looking at it again I think there probably wasn't any sort of tongue to guide the wheels one way or another through the points and, as it was a manually propelled system, they'd just have relied on a bit of side push to get it to to take the diverging route. I've seen similar (though with flanges on both sides) Decauville railways in wine cellars near Saumur.  

Edited July 7, 2021 by Pacific231G

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

The Irish had a monorail turntable with three rails. 

 

Contemplation of a three-rail monorail will lead to profound theological insight.

[Compound2632]

Just now, Pacific231G said:

They're not (I  looked)  and the curves, though tight, are no more so than Decauville's "SetTrack" curved pieces. 

 

@Northroader was our man for this, I think? Unless it was @Nearholmer. Both profoundly informed gentlemen when it comes to this sort of thing.

[Northroader]

Thank you for the compliment, Stephen, but I haven’t the foggiest notion about this one. It looks like it’s like the Patalia State system, but the road surface on the one side has been substituted by a second rail. As it’s by Decauville, I don’t see what improvement it would give over their standard system. As the wheel was a roller on one side, perhaps its to cater for 00/EM/P4?

[Northroader]

After some digging, the answer is that the track is specific to the place it is placed, the Musee de Arts et Metiers. As such it isn’t an exhibit brought to the museum, but rather part of a system to permit movement of larger, heavier objects when the museum was created. Presumably having the configuration of rails and wheels as they were limited the number of grooves in the flush floor to just the one.

https://www.arts-et-metiers.net/musee/y-t-il-eu-un-train-dans-le-musee

[jim.snowdon]

16 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

They're not Stephen  (I  looked! )  and the curves, though tight, are no more so than Decauville's "SetTrack" curved pieces in their catalogue. The load on each side would have been equal but the grooved rail did provide  the guidance. Looking at it again I think there probably wasn't any sort of tongue to guide the wheels one way or another through the points and, as it was a manually propelled system, they'd just have relied on a bit of side push to get it to to take the diverging route. I've seen similar (though with flanges on both sides) Decauville railways in wine cellars near Saumur.  

The point has a conventional moveable tongue, typical of tramway practice with grooved rail.

 

[AndyID]

18 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

The Irish had a monorail turntable with three rails. 

I'm hoping Accurascale will get round to producing it in 4mm.

 

 

It's not a turntable. It's a switched crossing.

[Pacific231G]

8 hours ago, Northroader said:

Thank you for the compliment, Stephen, but I haven’t the foggiest notion about this one. It looks like it’s like the Patalia State system, but the road surface on the one side has been substituted by a second rail. As it’s by Decauville, I don’t see what improvement it would give over their standard system. As the wheel was a roller on one side, perhaps its to cater for 00/EM/P4?

It would certainly solve that well known problem Ian. 

I couldn't figure out the why  of it either until I looked in more detail at the Decauville catalogue. I had wondered if it was simply that when not using the railway they had to fill in the groove (possibly with strips of wood such as cork) to avoid a trip hazard for visitors and only having one grooved rail halved that task. The grooved rail is now infilled with a flexible "rubber" strip but that may only be a modern thing as the architect responsible for the museum's refurbishment kept much of the railway as a "feature". It's not used now and in places ends at new walls.

That could have been the reason for this odd hybrid track but I think the price list in their 1890 catalogue gave a better clue.

For Decauville's lightest 500mm gauge portable track the price with normal rail was Fr3.70/metre but with tramway rails it was Fr6.10/metre. By using one of each they would have made significant savings for the several hundred metres of track required for all the museum's galleries on two floors. I've always assumed that this hybrid railway using wheelsets with one flangeless wheel and two sorts of rail flush with the flooring were a special order. It is though entirely possible that Decauville offered this for similar situations such as libraries. They were very good at suggesting novel uses for their products.  The only  rolling stock on display is the bogie (see above) and this appears to be one of Decauville's standard timber carrying bolsters without the rotatable forks.

 

How much stock the Museum actually had I can't say and I don't know if there were rails in one of the lifts to get exhibits to the first floor or just a separate loop of track on each but it probably wasn't more than a couple of pairs of these with whatever arrangement they used, possibly jsut a simple wooden platform, to carry heavy exhibits or display cabinets.   The track does though run to what was clearly the museum's main loading door.

Looking more closely at my original photos Jim is right about the moveable tongue. There's no  obvious way of changing it apart from just setting it by hand (or boot!) We are though just looking at a single occasional load being pushed fairly slowly through the museum by  two or three staff. 

I'd like to be able to find out more about this possibly unique railway but so far have drawn a blank.

Edited July 8, 2021 by Pacific231G
confirnation of switch tongue in point.

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

How much stock the Museum actually had I can't say and I don't know if there were rails in one of the lifts to get exhibits to the first floor or just a separate loop of track on each but it probably wasn't more than a couple of pairs of these with whatever arrangement they used, possibly jsut a simple wooden platform, to carry heavy exhibits or display cabinets.   The track does though run to what was clearly the museum's main loading door.

I'd like to be able to find out more about this possibly unique railway but so far have drawn a blank.

 

The article on the Musée des Arts et Métiers website linked to by @Northroader

https://www.arts-et-metiers.net/musee/y-t-il-eu-un-train-dans-le-musee

states:

 

Un monte-charge, situé au niveau de l’actuel théâtre des automates, permettait de déplacer les objets entre les galeries du premier étage et les amphithéâtres, situés au rez-de-chaussée. Il a été détruit au moment de la rénovation du musée dans les années 1990.

De nos jours, les rails ne sont plus utilisés mais sont préservés, témoin de l’histoire du musée.

 

I take that to mean that there was a dumb-waiter type lift connecting the museum level with the lecture theatre level.

[Pacific231G]

37 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The article on the Musée des Arts et Métiers website linked to by @Northroader

https://www.arts-et-metiers.net/musee/y-t-il-eu-un-train-dans-le-musee

states:

 

Un monte-charge, situé au niveau de l’actuel théâtre des automates, permettait de déplacer les objets entre les galeries du premier étage et les amphithéâtres, situés au rez-de-chaussée. Il a été détruit au moment de la rénovation du musée dans les années 1990.

De nos jours, les rails ne sont plus utilisés mais sont préservés, témoin de l’histoire du musée.

 

I take that to mean that there was a dumb-waiter type lift connecting the museum level with the lecture theatre level.

Yes. I read that in the Museum's guide book. I knew there was a freight elevator, but not whether it was fitted with rails. though I suspect it probably was.  They would have replaced it with a modern one, possibly in a different location, as they still have to move exhibits around but the renovation of the museum involved quite a lot of rearrangement of internal walls and rooms. I've tried without success to find any contemporary references but though I found an early article  about the museum, including a plan of the original layout, it didn't show the railway. The railway clearly did more than to take exhibits from galleries to lecture theatres as it also ran to the museum's courtyard.

 

OT but the Museum is well worth a visit if you want a change from paintings and sculptures in Paris. I was though amused to see that a number of the railway models on display were out of the box Jouef. These were perfectly fine for their purpose except that the original hinged loop couplings had been left on! 

 

My favourite exhibit was the one thar demonstrated very graphically the virtues of railways in terms of energy use. Essentally, a heavy axle was set up mounted in some kind of travelling frame and fitted, workin inwards,  with a a pair of cart wheels, rubber tyred wheels and railway wheels. These were arranged to run in turn on a representation of a rough track, a metalled road and a railway line (probably about quarter scale) a hand crank at one end of the display case allowed you to run it back and forth and the difference in the effort involved was striking.

 

They also had a model demonstrating power distribution with a a hand cranked three phase generator connected by three wires to a synchronous motor, this struck me as something you could use to manually operate a turntable  from a distance on a layout without the usual Meccano brackets gears and rods.

Unfortunately, I could find neither exhibit the last time I visited the museum which was when I took  my photos of the railway.

Edited July 8, 2021 by Pacific231G

[AndyID]

Just for the halibut I thought I'd take a shot at the determining the possible routes through the Irish monorail turnout/switch/crossing.

 

It's complicated

 

I happened to pick a radius that looks like it could result in an infinite number of possibilities. I'm pretty sure the real version used a radius that limits the number.

 

But for anyone so inclined the version above might have entertainment value on a model railway and not necessarily one that is limited to monorails.

 

(Any similarity between this diagram and driving round the Arc de Triomphe in the 1960's is purely coincidental)

 

 

[Pacific231G]

12 hours ago, AndyID said:

Just for the halibut I thought I'd take a shot at the determining the possible routes through the Irish monorail turnout/switch/crossing.

 

It's complicated

 

I happened to pick a radius that looks like it could result in an infinite number of possibilities. I'm pretty sure the real version used a radius that limits the number.

 

But for anyone so inclined the version above might have entertainment value on a model railway and not necessarily one that is limited to monorails.

 

(Any similarity between this diagram and driving round the Arc de Triomphe in the 1960's is purely coincidental)

 

 

Although I have driven my car through central Paris a few times (usually to get to Expometrique)  I have always drawn the line at l'Etoile. A friend of mine go stuck on it and it needed the police to get her off after several revolutions. It's a bit Hotel California- you can indicate but you can never leave!

 

I've seen somethinh a bit like this used to save length in a fiddle yard. Instead of fan of points to connect I think four sidings  to the running track, a turntable with rails cunningly arranged on it could be turned to line up any siding with the main. It did involve a number of crossings on the turntable  and getting the electrics right must have required some thought but with a suitable radius of turntable you could keep at least three tracks through it separated . 

 

[Compound2632]

12 hours ago, AndyID said:

Just for the halibut I thought I'd take a shot at the determining the possible routes through the Irish monorail turnout/switch/crossing.

 

It's complicated

 

Also, in the Lartigue monorail "turntable", the curve passes through the axis of rotation, which means that the exit/entry lines are not pointing at the centre.

[AndyID]

2 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Also, in the Lartigue monorail "turntable", the curve passes through the axis of rotation, which means that the exit/entry lines are not pointing at the centre.

 

I wondered about that but I couldn't see how the exits could possibly line-up without a horrible kink! Maybe I'm missing something. I'll give it another shot.

[AndyID]

24 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

Although I have driven my car through central Paris a few times (usually to get to Expometrique)  I have always drawn the line at l'Etoile. A friend of mine go stuck on it and it needed the police to get her off after several revolutions. It's a bit Hotel California- you can indicate but you can never leave!

 

 

Completely off-topic but one reason for the trip to Paris was because my mum and dad were old friends of Donald Caskie.

[Compound2632]

I'm now in some doubt. See Image 2 here. I'm not sure we're looking at the same turntable in your photo and this one but if we are, I struggle to reconcile them. If not, then why were two different designs in use? 

 

Aha. Wikipedia says:

 

Conventional railway points could not be used, so a similar function was fulfilled by a large number of curved movable pieces of track which, when rotated one way, would connect the main and one other track. When turned end-for-end, the curve went in the opposite direction, and so connected the main and a different track. The devices could not be called turntables because they could only be moved when there was no rolling stock on them. There was, however, a turntable at each terminus.

Edited July 9, 2021 by Compound2632

[Northroader]

For the geometry to be right, you’d have to have the curve on the table offset from the pivot centre. Then it looks as if it’s laid out with two entries on one side, and one on the other, to form a Y divergence. This would allow a loop on running lines to be set up. The fourth entry on the same side as the single entry would be to a siding and only line up with one of the two entries, but not both, which would be impossible. You’ll see that Andy’s trial just keep advancing round the circle.

Edit: rough sketch added-

Edited July 9, 2021 by Northroader

[pH]

38 minutes ago, AndyID said:

 

Completely off-topic but one reason for the trip to Paris was because my mum and dad were old friends of Donald Caskie.

To continue the off-topic excursion:

 

From that Wikipedia article - ”Caskie finally returned to Scotland as minister in Old Gourock Church.”

 

I knew the name was familiar from the past (apart from his wartime activities).

[AndyID]

5 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

I've seen somethinh a bit like this used to save length in a fiddle yard. Instead of fan of points to connect I think four sidings  to the running track, a turntable with rails cunningly arranged on it could be turned to line up any siding with the main. It did involve a number of crossings on the turntable  and getting the electrics right must have required some thought but with a suitable radius of turntable you could keep at least three tracks through it separated .

 

Here's a five way. Looks like a four way would work without any crossings.

 

[Michael Hodgson]

Now let's see somebody put that one in the Prototype for Everything thread !