Midland Railway Company

[technohand]

There does not appear to be a topic on this interesting and important Railway Company.

I have accumulated quite a lot of information over the years and feel it would be of use if this was shared with like minded

individuals.

My own particular interest is track of which there is a lack of information especially regarding pre 1900 point(switch)

construction.

[Spitfire2865]

I rather like the MR. Their small engine policy really appeals to me as I love smaller freight workings. (Any loco over 6 coupled just looks wrong to me)

And it shaped the LMS far more than any other constituent company.

My personal interest is in freight locos and wagons of the LMS and constituents.

Any info on MR wagons would be nice. Im always on the lookout for odd wagons which would make an interesting build.

[Corbs]

Could I ask if anyone has any knowledge on the relationship between the MR and the L&Y? Was it bitter rivalry or was there much inter-working?

[Spitfire2865]

Could I ask if anyone has any knowledge on the relationship between the MR and the L&Y? Was it bitter rivalry or was there much inter-working?

Interesting question. Just had a look through some of my photos and I have photos of L&Y, MR, but none of both. Probably just dont have enough photos. Haha

[Joseph_Pestell]

From what I have read, L&Y and Midland seemed to work well together. My long-term interest has been the never-completed West Riding Line of the Midland via Dewsbury. With that not built, the Midland used L&Y tracks to access Bradford Exchange and their own branch to Huddersfield.

 

On the track issue, I recall that Slater's catalogues used to have quite a lot of info about Midland track and pointwork. But I don't recall if it was much pre-1900.

 

A lot to be said for modelling the Midland, whatever the scale. Beautiful coaches in particular and locos without complex outside valve gear.

Edited February 4, 2015 by Joseph_Pestell

[Jol Wilkinson]

And it shaped the LMS far more than any other constituent company.

 

Regrettably.  

 

The MR small engine policy that was implemented in the LMS did much to hold back that railway for many years. While it suited the MR routes and operating practises it wasn't what the other constituent companies needed as train weights and speeds increased.

[technohand]

I agree with what you say about the small engine policy.

Remember labour was cheap.

The Midland made it's money moving coal so one or two engines pulling a string of 8ton coal wagons at 20 mph to London getting out of the way of passenger traffic in lay by sidings of limited length was quite economic in pre 14-18 war period and the LMS had to make do with what it inherited until there was sufficient cash to make improvements in Motive Power and wagon capacities(the Midland had no bogie coal wagons until the late 1910's and then not many.

Passenger Traffic was well looked after by 4-4-0 locos singly or double headed, the average train length being 5 bogies and a couple of brakes,horse boxes and CCTs so it's easy to see the logic.

They still managed to return a good profit to the Share Holders and whether we like it or not that's what it was all about!

Regards

Tony 

[kevinlms]

I agree with what you say about the small engine policy.

Remember labour was cheap.

The Midland made it's money moving coal so one or two engines pulling a string of 8ton coal wagons at 20 mph to London getting out of the way of passenger traffic in lay by sidings of limited length was quite economic in pre 14-18 war period and the LMS had to make do with what it inherited until there was sufficient cash to make improvements in Motive Power and wagon capacities(the Midland had no bogie coal wagons until the late 1910's and then not many.

Passenger Traffic was well looked after by 4-4-0 locos singly or double headed, the average train length being 5 bogies and a couple of brakes,horse boxes and CCTs so it's easy to see the logic.

They still managed to return a good profit to the Share Holders and whether we like it or not that's what it was all about!

Regards

Tony 

Yes but, labour was just as cheap for the other railway companies too. So why didn't all the others operate in exactly the same manor as the Midland? Many other railway companies ran equally large quantities of coal & other freight traffic and they choose to run their trains with eight-coupled freight locomotives. Similarly Midland locomotives were built & operated on the basis of lowest consumption of coal & water, whereas other railways were more concerned about load was moved  by their locomotives.

Passenger services were becoming heavier and passengers were demanding higher speeds by the 1920s. The 2P's & 4P's weren't really up to it by then & something larger, more powerful & more efficient were required.

Josiah Stamp knew this & went headhunting for William Stanier.

As we know, this transformed the operations on the LMS, with large fleets of new engines, which quickly proved to be more economical than vast quantities of locomotive designed 50 or more years ago.

 

Yes Midland locos look good & I like them, but were they really up to the job by the 1930s? I think not!

[John_Miles]

Very interesting thread. First the small engine policy. Until around 1900, Midland engines were as large as those of other companies. After 1900, Johnson and Deeley submitted designs for large engines and were knocked back. The problems seem to be partly to do with the "Engineer" i.e. Civil Engineer and partly with a reluctance to invest which I suspect was due to the fact that in the late 1890s, the Midland was not that profitable.

 

For those of you who want to model Midland Railway track, there are drawings in the Midland Railway Study Centre which is in the Silk Mill Museum, Derby.

[CKPR]

The various articles about the building of  the 'Heckmonwike' P4 layout that were published in 'Model Railways' in the late 1970s make reference to Midland PW practice and were rather well referenced IIRC.

[technohand]

The problem we Midland modellers have is the dreaded three way point used extensively in goods yards. The layouts of lay-bys and goods yards with an aversion to facing points has been fairly well documented and provided you can build a single slip and wire it an accurate representation is possible.I model in EM so have to make my own points anyway.I don't think there are many pictures of these so I shall have to bight the bullet and visit the Midland Railway Study Centre, not easy when you live in Bristol.

Oh well I shall have to do the research my self and then publish on RM Web.

Of course as soon as I do some one will come up with conflicting information!

Tony

[coachmann]

And it shaped the LMS far more than any other constituent company.

This is a fact no matter what one's personal loyalties are. The 8' + 8' 6" coupled wheelbase remained long after Stanier started fitting taper boilers. Many loco designs attributed to Fowler were resuscitated Midland designs. Midland external carriage design originated on the Midland during the construction of Ambulance Coaches during WW1 and the 9' bogie remained throughout the LMS's existence even though it was upgraded with longer springs in the mid 1930's. When asked to put forward something typically British, the Midland Dining Car was suggested!

 

It is also a fact that many of the practices the small Midland company foisted on the giant LMS were bad practice by the 1920's. A Class 4P Compound hadn't been built since 1912 and yet the Midland men had them built in great numbers from 1925 for LMS expresses. Hardly comparable with a 7P Castle on the GWR, 7P A1 on the LNER or 5XP King Arthur on the SR.....Not to mention a LNWR Prince of Wales or George V...!

Edited February 10, 2015 by coachmann

[Allegheny1600]

I used to quite dislike the Midland railway, quite simply because I was born in Derby and almost everyone around me always extolled it's virtues all the time!

Add in the fact that I am a fan of larger engines anyway and me & the MR were never going to be friends so I rebelled and went Great Northern!

However, moving home up towards more northern territories and I can see why people were enamoured of the Midland.

That wonderful livery for one, the family resemblance apparent in the locos, "The Midland for comfort" slogan indicating really good quality coaching stock, the frequency of the smaller trains - it all makes for a very model-able railway.

Yes, it had it's faults (discussed before on here) but it was good, especially the Peak line and the Settle & Carlisle, oh for a time machine to go back and see it for real.

Cheers,

John E.

[billbedford]

Midland external carriage design originated on the Midland during the construction of Ambulance Coaches during WW1 and the 9' bogie remained throughout the LMS's existence even though it was upgraded with longer springs in the mid 1930's. 

 

Late 'Midland' carriage design came with Bain from the North Eastern in 1901. The 9' LMS bogie was a development of the LNWR design. The MR bogies were all either 8' or 10'.

[coachmann]

Late 'Midland' carriage design came with Bain from the North Eastern in 1901. The 9' LMS bogie was a development of the LNWR design. The MR bogies were all either 8' or 10'.

I will attempt to enlighten you and your followers. First of all, was the LMS Period I coach built from 1923 a clerestory design? Answer no, so how could the LMS coach design date from 1901?????????

 

The Midland made a stronger-built 10' bogie for some experimental elliptical roof steel ended corridor coaches built in 1917, but it continued to use it's 8' bogies (plural as there were two types) on 56  6" coaches built as Ambulance stock for the Government. Some were clerestory and some elliptical roof. These coaches reverted to panelled ends. The Midland 9' bogie was its own design dating from circa 1920 during construction of its first 57' elliptical roof corridor coaches with the then new matchboard ends. In addition, all the Midland coaches 57' length had recessed door handles and outward facing steel channel solebars with shallow angle truss trussrods, both new features. The final diagrams to D1284 and D1285 had deeper trussing 11" from rail level to support battery boxes. The LMS Period I coach was a direct descendant of these final 1922-4 built coaches with matchboard ends although the LMS did not adopt the recessed door handle except on a handful of diagrams.

Edited February 11, 2015 by coachmann

[John_Miles]

I shall have to bight the bullet and visit the Midland Railway Study Centre

 

Once you have been you will want to return. It is a veritable treasure chest and the access if much easier than at most research centres. Take a camera to copy the track drawings.

 

"The Midland for comfort" slogan indicating really good quality coaching stock,

 

 

 

My parents were both from North East Lancashire and so got to sample both Midland and L&Y carriages. They said that after the formation of the LMS, they would always use the ex-Midland carriage, if available, because of the comfort.

[technohand]

Hello John

Thanks for the advice,I'll try to get up there ASAP.

I remember travelling to London with a work mate who was an LNWR/LMS enthusiast and we had an oppertunity to travel in a down graded First Class Dining car for the journey and your parents were absolutely right,it was wonderful.

Tony

Edited February 11, 2015 by technohand

[Penlan]

Technohead - The comfort was brilliant in the Diner, because it was LNWR not Midland ....  
Hi, John Miles, hope all's well with you ....  I trust the Icon's out of mourning now...

[jamie92208]

Much to think about in this thread.

 

a)  The Midland and L&Y did cooperate a lot.  Hellifield had sheds for both companies and much traffic was interchanged.  There were even some Tri Composite L & Y bogie coaches that were built so that they could operate over Midland lines.  There was also excursion traffic from a variety of L & Y lines to Morecambe.

 

b) The so called small engine policy, which has been debated at length in other earlier threads had as much to do with the fact that Midland underline bridges were not too stong and the fact that most of the sheds were roundhouses, than other factors.  Bigger locos would have required considerable capital outlay.  No doubt other ftors were in play as well.

 

c)  The Study Centre at Derby, is as stated above a veritable treasure trove and well worth visiting.

 

On a personal basis, having been born in Carlisle, then lived at Chesterfield, Settle and Woodlesford I am a confirmed Miland enthusiast and find modelling its lines very enjoyable.

 

Jamie

[John_Miles]

Technohead - The comfort was brilliant in the Diner, because it was LNWR not Midland ....  

Hi, John Miles, hope all's well with you ....  I trust the Icon's out of mourning now.

 

Sandy - no room for heretics like you on this thread. This is for the chosen race who know the Midland was best. Hope all is well down there in Cornwall,

[Worsdell forever]

Sandy - no room for heretics like you on this thread. This is for the chosen race who know the Midland was best. Hope all is well down there in Cornwall,

 

But of course as noted above the Midland poached it's passenger stock man from The Best - the North Eastern Railway...

[Corbs]

Thanks very much for the info so far, chaps.

 

I have another question (more looking for confirmation or not of a rumour) - was the railway's original intention for all locos (passenger and goods) to be in crimson lake, but due to cost/austerity measures, the goods locos were eventually all outshopped in black?

Edited February 12, 2015 by Corbs

[jamie92208]

Thanks very much for the info so far, chaps.

 

I have another question (more looking for confirmation or not of a rumour) - was the railway's original intention for all locos (passenger and goods) to be in crimson lake, but due to cost/austerity measures, the goods locos were eventually all outshopped in black?

The goods locos only went into black in 1907, prior to that they were all red.   However prior to, IIRC, 1876 they were green.

 

Jamie

[billbedford]

The goods locos only went into black in 1907, prior to that they were all red.   However prior to, IIRC, 1876 they were green.

 

That is, apart from the locos that were painted brown.

[t-b-g]

Never mind the size, Midland locos were, generally, very pretty! Certainly in original condition and even various upgrades and alterations didn't spoil them too much.

 

The singles, some of the 2-4-0s and the early 0-6-0 goods locos were just lovely.

 

The carriages looked rather nice too and a rake of Midland Clerestories behind a "Spinner" is about as good a looking train as it is possible to get.

 

And that comes from a GCR fan!

 

Tony